Or implied snottery.
You still haven't given any serious explanation of how C&O was using the Alleghenies effectively well below their horsepower peak, but you sure can disparage anyone trying to point out why that's unadvisable, with no better argument than mockery.
I expect better from you, of all people.
I think some people just mistake bringing math into a discussion like this as an intention to disparage a classic and well loved locomotive design that in several statistics remains at the head of the class where steam locomotive design goes.
One can state that these extremely powerful machines didn't get to fully show off their capabilities and that in the duties that they did get assigned, something smaller and cheaper could've handled the job more efficiently, while still being in awe at what Lima produced.
Lima designed them as fast freight articulateds, even if they perhaps knew that C&O wasn't going to assign them to such duties (the builder's of course wanted to sell the bigger and more expensive designs). It's a testament to just how good of a machine it was that it was still a capable slow speed lugger, but it seems quite factually clear that it wasn't the type's forte.
In 1947 the B&O had a mail train being hauled by an EM-1 #7625 that derailed near Oakland, MD at 40 MPH with a cause listed as "Irregularities in alinement, surface and gage of track combined with slack closure". Subsequently the B&O rarely if ever used EM-1's on passenger schedules.
https://planeandtrainwrecks.com/Document?db=DOT-RAILROAD&query=(select+130+(byhits+(field+RAILROAD+(anyof+BALTIMORE))))
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
In an alternate universe it would have been interesting to see how an Allegheny would have fared over Sherman Hill and the Wasatch Range.
I know, I know, different fuel, different builder allegiance, 110,000 lbs tractive effort instead of the Big Boy's 135,000 lbs tractive effort, 12 drivers instead of 16 drivers.
But 13% more tractive effort than a Challenger.
I am just saying it would have been interesting to see an Allegheny give Sherman Hill and the Wasatch Range a go where there was more fast freight opportuniity and a rugged test.
In an alternate universe.
BaltACD, it is interesting that it was the end of the EM-1 on passenger schedules.
The N&W A even with its two-wheel lead truck worked out well on varnish, particularly The Tennessean, and of course UP Challengers with their four-wheel lead trucks handled a lot of varnish particularly on the Los Angeles & Salt Lake.
kgbw49 In an alternate universe it would have been interesting to see how an Allegheny would have fared over Sherman Hill and the Wasatch Range. I know, I know, different fuel, different builder allegiance, 110,000 lbs tractive effort instead of the Big Boy's 135,000 lbs tractive effort, 12 drivers instead of 16 drivers. But 13% more tractive effort than a Challenger. I am just saying it would have been interesting to see an Allegheny give Sherman Hill and the Wasatch Range a go where there was more fast freight opportuniity and a rugged test. In an alternate universe.
I think an Allegheny could have replaced a Big Boy or Challenger out west with acceptable results.
But neither a Big Boy or an ALCO Challenger could have replaced the Allegheny, or the N&W Class A, in the east.
The Big Boy is not "nimble" enough for Appalachia, and as you point out, the Challenger lacks the power.
I think the C&O/LIMA and the N&W understood the "nimble" issue when staying with 12 drivers, and that is born out by the B&O experiances with EM-1's at higher speeds.
Sheldon
Of course, neither the UP Challenger nor the Big Boy were designed for drag freight service.
I confess I was incorrect on using the last C&O steam to judge the Alleghenies. But I maintain my position on the N&W decisions vs C&O's and VIrginian's, rergarding road power.
OvermodYou still haven't given any serious explanation ...
And "serious explanation" doesn't mean "complete explanation". The latter would have been impossible even in 1940.
CSSHEGEWISCH Of course, neither the UP Challenger nor the Big Boy were designed for drag freight service.
And there you have it, the design of both the Class A and the Allegheny made them more versatile, able to run fast, or slug it out with a heavy load. And plenty nimble enough to maintain moderate speeds in the winding turns of Appalachia.
Could it be that the designers knew exactly what they were building?
If the C&O had the opportunities to run fast? The Virginian?
Where on the Virginian? And were the Alleghenies actually used where they could run fast? Or where the Greenriars (4-8-4s) thr premium power there?
Perhaps the C&O was hoping for an expansion of the high-tarrif merchandise business that would really use the speed characteristcs.
daveklepper If the C&O had the opportunities to run fast? The Virginian? Where on the Virginian? And were the Alleghenies actually used where they could run fast? Or where the Greenriars (4-8-4s) thr premium power there? Perhaps the C&O was hoping for an expansion of the high-tarrif merchandise business that would really use the speed characteristcs.
I'm not an expert who has the whole history of the C&O, or any railroad, committed to memory.
But from what I have read, and been told by those who have done more research than me, the C&O was very progressive and optimistic in the post war era, even if that optimism was unrealistic.
I think everyone in this discussion who has not read "LIMA - super power steam locomotives" by Dixon and Kohles needs to.
The developement of the the super power concept gave steam locomotives a multi purpose ability they had never had before.
Enough steam, the perfect balance of driver size, piston size and stroke, roller bearings, better balancing, and moderm boiler efficiency gave these locomotives a dramaticly wider range of capabilities than previous designs.
The early 4-8-2's were the first "hint" that a steam locomotive could excel at both speed and power. Look at the list roads who used that wheel arrangement and how they used them - lots of passenger and freight, by a group of locos with similar specs.
LIMA rasied this to an art form, while the other builders played catch up in this area.
The Allegheny was the ulimate test of how big and powerful such a locomotive could be. It worked.
Even if only half of its potential was used on a regular basis.
And the N&W did the same thing on their own, in their own shops.
People get all excited about the BigBoy, and it is impressive, but the fact that an Allegheny is what it is, on 12 drivers rather than 16, is way more impressive in my mind.
Long wheel base locos beat up track, this is no secret. There as been enough written about the C&O T-1 in this regard. I believe that was another reason for the Allegheny. The T-1's needed to stay in the flater, straighter parts of the line..... Something more nimble, yet powerful, was needed.
But I'm by no means the expert, just a modeler and casual railfan.
If anyone is interested in this discussion, you ought to take a look at the January 1931 Railway Age article on C&O's first replacement of 16-driver engines. The writer doesn't comment on C&O's stupidity -- maybe he figured no need to mention it, since it was so obvious.
(Too bad -- that volume of Rwy Age isn't on Hathitrust.org. Anyone find it anywhere else?)
timzIf anyone is interested in this discussion, you ought to take a look at the January 1931 Railway Age article on C&O's first replacement of 16-driver engines.
To make my opinion perfectly clear, I am not saying C&O was 'stupid' for abusing the Allegheny locomotives in coal service. The Allegheny represents the flower of both Lima engineering and the AMC. Lima and Woodard made their share of weird experiments and proposals that we've come to recognize as zany or worse... but there was no stupidity or ignorance involved in those.
It is somewhat possible that Lima sold C&O a line about the suitability of the design for heavy service -- C&O had what was probably the highest permissible weight on drivers of any road, Eastern or otherwise, and the early Allegheny examples certainly flirted with it. This is (in my opinion at least) not as egregious as Baldwin telling N&W that the TE-1 would be capable of 65mph because the traction motors were nominally geared for that speed; apparently N&W did not figure out what a whopper this was until the locomotive was over its early teething troubles and the time came to try running at that advertised speed.
My opinion is that C&O bought the engines first for capability at merchandiser speed, and second as wartime engines. At the end of the war they had a stock of very expensive locomotives that C&O had comparatively little distinctive use for, so it's not surprising they worked them in the services they could, a bit like farmers in the Depression who found that cutting the bodies off big Packards and the like could enable their effective use as flatbed or stakebody trucks. This is not 'economical' in the same sense as Tuplin's report of the Niagara, but it is practical use of an asset to produce at least some ton-miles, even if well short of the potential economy of running them closer to the horsepower peak.
There is a very old tendency, mocked effectively by Sinclair's Gilderfluke Patent Locomotive, to weigh steam-locomotive designs primarily in terms of thermodynamics, including the various methods of Rankine heat recovery. However, railroads could much more properly choose to operate locomotives as commodity generators of ton-miles -- as productive assets rather than economizers. A pointed example would be the D&H high-pressure engines, which were delightful on 5mph drags, but incapable of showing the practical economies of the Challengers... but this required changing the railroad operations to permit high-speed freight working. Had D&H bought Challengers and then relegated them day-in day-out to slow coal drags... it would have been a waste comparable to C&O's operations, and it is that waste, not overall financial asset utilization, that is the subject of the Allegheny technical discussion.
BaltACD In 1947 the B&O had a mail train being hauled by an EM-1 #7625 that derailed near Oakland, MD at 40 MPH with a cause listed as "Irregularities in alinement, surface and gage of track combined with slack closure". Subsequently the B&O rarely if ever used EM-1's on passenger schedules. https://planeandtrainwrecks.com/Document?db=DOT-RAILROAD&query=(select+130+(byhits+(field+RAILROAD+(anyof+BALTIMORE))))
Ironically Southern Pacific with their reversal of their articulated 2-8-8-4 locomotives for safer-for-crew operations in tunnels resulted in a four-wheel lead truck and satisfactory performance on passenger, mail and fast freight.
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/819346/
kgbw49 BaltACD In 1947 the B&O had a mail train being hauled by an EM-1 #7625 that derailed near Oakland, MD at 40 MPH with a cause listed as "Irregularities in alinement, surface and gage of track combined with slack closure". Subsequently the B&O rarely if ever used EM-1's on passenger schedules. https://planeandtrainwrecks.com/Document?db=DOT-RAILROAD&query=(select+130+(byhits+(field+RAILROAD+(anyof+BALTIMORE)))) Ironically Southern Pacific with their reversal of their articulated 2-8-8-4 locomotives for safer-for-crew operations in tunnels resulted in a four-wheel lead truck and satisfactory performance on passenger, mail and fast freight. https://www.railpictures.net/photo/819346/
The cab forward also had the advantage of the pivoting engine following, which also added to its high speed stability.
Which brings up a question. The SP had a lot of cab forwards, did any railroad have more 16 driver locomotives than the SP?
That is a great question!
SP had 195 of the AC-4 through AC-8 and AC-10 through AC-12 4-8-8-2 classes.
SP had 12 of the AC-9 2-8-8-4 class.
SP also had quite a number of the 2-8-8-2 configuration.
Hmmm.
Perhaps Norfolk & Western with their various Y 2-8-8-2 classes gives SP a run?
Using Trains Guide to North American Steam Locomotives, I count the SP as having 266 x-8-8-x locomotives. I count N&W as having 231. What makes this most impressive is that the N&W in the steam era was a relatively small railroad. It didn't get further west/north than Columbus and Cincinnati. It didn't include what many of us remember from our lifetimes, the VGN, WAB, NKP, WLE, etc.
BackshopUsing Trains Guide to North American Steam Locomotives, I count the SP as having 266 x-8-8-x locomotives. I count N&W as having 231. What makes this most impressive is that the N&W in the steam era was a relatively small railroad. It didn't get further west/north than Columbus and Cincinnati. It didn't include what many of us remember from our lifetimes, the VGN, WAB, NKP, WLE, etc.
Videos I have seen - NW needed multiple engines on both ends of the size trains they were operating over the grades of their territory. SP had much more mileage to cover but had less need to use multiple engines on both ends of their trains.
OvermodI am not saying C&O was 'stupid'
OvermodMy opinion is that C&O bought the engines first for capability at merchandiser speed, and second as wartime engines. At the end of the war they had a stock of very expensive locomotives that C&O had comparatively little distinctive use for ...
timz Overmod I am not saying C&O was 'stupid'
Overmod I am not saying C&O was 'stupid'
Overmod My opinion is that C&O bought the engines first for capability at merchandiser speed, and second as wartime engines. At the end of the war they had a stock of very expensive locomotives that C&O had comparatively little distinctive use for ...Good lord! You think when C&O ordered 45-or-whatever-it-was Alleghenies, they didn't plan to haul coal to Alleghany with them?
Overmod My opinion is that C&O bought the engines first for capability at merchandiser speed, and second as wartime engines. At the end of the war they had a stock of very expensive locomotives that C&O had comparatively little distinctive use for ...
While I'm in agreement with your main points, I think it's worth again to state that the C&O went back three years after the conclusion of WWII and bought 15 additional copies of this design.
So I'm not convinced that they exactly felt that they were stuck at the end of WWII with 45 expensive locomotives without a clear fit in the postwar C&O to take advantage of that large investment (And if so, that feeling couldn't of lasted for long when they soon expanded the fleet to 60 examples).
In general, it would make great sense to standardize on the minimum number of large steam designs; we might compare the "lower" nominal power output of the Allegheny design at low speed with the 'competing' horsepower of alternative designs on C&O or elsewhere, and find it perfectly acceptable... as long as we didn't make up coal trains expecting that the Allegheny would be making its vaunted 7000+hp on them.
There was a funny thing going on with C&O in the late '40s: they had two flavors of very heavy Hudson, one very interesting set of radical rebuilds of F-19 Pacifics into a completely different type of Hudson, the series of Greenbrier 4-8-4s, and the M-1 turbines, all predominantly passenger engines -- but there appeared to be no attempt to adapt the Allegheny type to perform the job of the failed M-1s on modern streamliners west of Charlottesville, as I think N&W was planning to do as its 'competition' to Cincinnati (using the last As with lightweight rods) if that traffic had in fact competitively developed rather than cumulatively failed everyone. That would have given a '4-8-4-and-a-half' with its desired speed range right smack near the peak of the horsepower curve -- admittedly this is sort of overkill for contemporary C&O traffic, but not the proposed Chessie, or other Robert R. Young trains prospectively full of special cars and amenities and axle-driven power requirements...
The thihg that I think bothers me is that the same period marks the practical mainstream application of better balancing on heavy power, which for example together with modulated IP injection could have made relatively high-speed engines out of N&W compound 2-8-8-2s, making the engines actually match the legend N&W seemed to be fabricating for them in the early-to-middle '50s. A 2-8-8-6 with many common components shared with the Alleghenies (including most of the steam-distribution parts) might easily have had all the necessary merchandise speed at tolerable augment and yaw, but be wholly suited to coal trains right down to adhesion limit. That shouldn't have taken Lima and the AMC much time to develop, and kept many components common between the two engine classes. But that is merely speculation.
OvermodI have factually pointed out, over and over and over ....
OvermodBy objective and easy-to-substantiate technical reasons....
Maybe we've found the root of the problem -- what does "fact" mean?
"C&O 1600 left Lima's plant on (date)."
Once we fill in the date, that's an example of a fact. Everyone agrees on it.
"Earth is round."
That's pretty much a fact, tho some people like to disagree with it.
So now it's up to the readers, again: can anyone find a fact anywhere in the same county as the quotes above?
BigJim mentioned the grade at a spot on the Virginian -- I assume it's a fact that that's what the NS track chart shows. Aside from that, can anyone find a fact anywhere in this thread, written by any of us? Lots of opinions, lots of surmises, but roughly zero facts. Nothing wrong with that -- just don't imagine you're reading facts.
Overmod(Perhaps that will be simple enough for you to grasp.)
OvermodN&W routinely used 70"-drivered As on coal trains limited by Y-class compound road speeds.... it was not an efficient use of that type of locomotive.
Hmmmm! You've raised a question. Is the horsepower vs. speed analysis fact or opinion? Grades. loads. tractive-effort and possible speeds?
daveklepperIs the horsepower vs. speed analysis fact or opinion?
Whatever facts do exist were known by C&O and N&W better than today's fans know them, of course. We'll never know how today's fans can imagine they know better than C&O and N&W motive-power people did in the 1940s. (Good a guess as any: the fans don't know what "fact" means.)
As a 'fact', I have on my desk a copy of the PRR 'Dept. of Mech. Eng." starting tractive effort based on MEP graph that was prepared as part of the V1 development. (In the original this was splendidly prepared, with different colored lines for the different locomotives.)
The axes for this are 'Drawbar pull - (in) 10,000 Pounds' on the Y axis, and "Speed - Miles Per Hour' on the X axis.
Prominent on this is the trace for the "C&O 2-6-6-6', which perhaps we can factually agree the PRR motive-power department understood at least as well as its counterpart on C&O, although I'm sure there are people who would like to differ.
The interesting thing that immediately emerges from examination of this is that the drawbar pull of the Allegheny at 20mph is close to 100,000lb, which is the practical metric for overcoming train resistance. By the time you get to the 'horsepower peak' (which is the point of inflection in the trace as drawn) which is a bit difficult to determine as the curve is relatively flat over a considerable range, the observed drawbar pull at that speed is down to somewhere in the 70,000lb range.
By that measure, there is clearly more train-hauling 'advantage' for C&O to run the engines precisely as they did: the drawbar pull as read directly off the graph translates immediately to the train resistance the locomotive output will 'balance'.
On the other hand, the actual cost of fuel and water to operate the locomotive is at a minimum at the peak of the effective horsepower curve (which can be derived from this graph mathematically with no additional observation). That is at a higher road speed (and corresponds roughly to the inflection point where the falling curve of tractive effort reverses). So in essence the C&O is spending more to run the locomotive on the heavier train than it would if it ran where Lima designed the locomotive to go (I assume that Eric Hirsimaki is not talking out of his hat when he discusses this; I certainly see no technical reason to dispute the idea).
Obviously we know how C&O considered the tradeoff. Mr. Zukas may have the specific information about C&O crew costs or union agreements that would justify the lower unit cost of crew operation represented by the heavier tonnage vs. the longer time required for the train to operate a given distance, which is likely a large part of the reason C&O operated the locomotives as they did.
But this in no way establishes that a comparable locomotive design optimized to actually make peak power from the same steam-generation capacity with peak horsepower at the effective speed range wouldn't have had exactly the same operating manpower cost, with an even higher effective drawbar TE at comparable speed, which is what I was arguing and what Mr. Zukas seems to be doing his obstinate best to misundestand and cavil over at the same time.
I've posted the B&W scan of the graph several times over the years, so it should be at least possible to find somewhere, probably in one of the steam-technology threads from about a decade ago. I don't have the immediate equipment to scan it for posting again, but I can certainly do so if anyone who wants facts about steam design wants to see it.
As a couple of interesting asides: the Allegheny trace was only recorded up to 60mph, which is about 4mph higher than the point where the 6-8-6 S2 turbine starts producing more TE at speed. The Q2, a rigid-frame design with one fewer driver pair, develops higher drawbar TE than the Allegheny at any speed, but there is something of a 'ringer' in this because PRR is quietly including the high-speed booster as part of the trace, and they cut this out at suspiciously high speed (about 37mph) which probably not coincidentally is precisely where the falling trace due to steam consumption from the booster just approaches the Allegheny's.
The V1, which at the time of the graph was still the mechanical double turbine, is interesting. Its starting TE, despite it having many of the same ghastly low-speed steam consumption characteristics as the S2, is 5000lb or more over the Allegheny's starting DBTE, but it falls below at about 12mph and then rises above again right around 20mph, after which is sharply diverges; by 55mph it had prospectively had over a 15,000lb advantage, and produced the same DBTE that the Allegheny shows at 60mph at over 75mph. (Not that that would have mattered much after PRR went back to 50mph freight, but it would have been significant in 1944).
ATLANTIC CENTRAL kgbw49 In an alternate universe it would have been interesting to see how an Allegheny would have fared over Sherman Hill and the Wasatch Range. I know, I know, different fuel, different builder allegiance, 110,000 lbs tractive effort instead of the Big Boy's 135,000 lbs tractive effort, 12 drivers instead of 16 drivers. But 13% more tractive effort than a Challenger. I am just saying it would have been interesting to see an Allegheny give Sherman Hill and the Wasatch Range a go where there was more fast freight opportuniity and a rugged test. In an alternate universe. I think an Allegheny could have replaced a Big Boy or Challenger out west with acceptable results. But neither a Big Boy or an ALCO Challenger could have replaced the Allegheny, or the N&W Class A, in the east. The Big Boy is not "nimble" enough for Appalachia, and as you point out, the Challenger lacks the power. I think the C&O/LIMA and the N&W understood the "nimble" issue when staying with 12 drivers, and that is born out by the B&O experiances with EM-1's at higher speeds. Sheldon
I don't agree with this at all. The Alleghenies were terribly overweight and wouldn't have even been allowed on UP property with their 86,000lbs axle loadings (UP axle load limits during the late steam era were 68,000lbs). In spite of their axle loadings, the Alleghenies were much less capable than the UP Big Boys in the service these locomotives were intended for. On their railroads' respective 1.14% ruling grades, the Alleghenies were only rated for 2950 tons, whereas the Big Boys were initially rated for 3600 tons (later increased to as much as 4450 tons). People like to focus on the maximum horsepower capabilities, but overlook the important performance differences in the speed range where these locomotives operated more frequently. The Allegheny had 35,000lbs less weight on drivers, smaller cylinders, and lower boiler pressure, all of which are significant drawbacks for a locomotive intended to haul heavy trains on mountain grades. As a result, the Big Boys developed more horsepower than the Allegheny up to 25mph, allowing faster acceleration from stops, and offsetting some of the Allegheny's horsepower advantage at higher speeds.
With respect to whether the Big Boy would have been nimble enough to handle mainline coal trains in C&O territory, they could negotiate 20 degree curves and were shorter in overall height than the Allegheny. The only question would be whether clearances to adjacent tracks on the C&O mainline would permit their operation, however let's not forget that the Allegheny was itself a very large machine.
sgriggs ATLANTIC CENTRAL kgbw49 In an alternate universe it would have been interesting to see how an Allegheny would have fared over Sherman Hill and the Wasatch Range. I know, I know, different fuel, different builder allegiance, 110,000 lbs tractive effort instead of the Big Boy's 135,000 lbs tractive effort, 12 drivers instead of 16 drivers. But 13% more tractive effort than a Challenger. I am just saying it would have been interesting to see an Allegheny give Sherman Hill and the Wasatch Range a go where there was more fast freight opportuniity and a rugged test. In an alternate universe. I think an Allegheny could have replaced a Big Boy or Challenger out west with acceptable results. But neither a Big Boy or an ALCO Challenger could have replaced the Allegheny, or the N&W Class A, in the east. The Big Boy is not "nimble" enough for Appalachia, and as you point out, the Challenger lacks the power. I think the C&O/LIMA and the N&W understood the "nimble" issue when staying with 12 drivers, and that is born out by the B&O experiances with EM-1's at higher speeds. Sheldon I don't agree with this at all. The Alleghenies were terribly overweight and wouldn't have even been allowed on UP property with their 86,000lbs axle loadings (UP axle load limits during the late steam era were 68,000lbs). In spite of their axle loadings, the Alleghenies were much less capable than the UP Big Boys in the service these locomotives were intended for. On their railroads' respective 1.14% ruling grades, the Alleghenies were only rated for 2950 tons, whereas the Big Boys were initially rated for 3600 tons (later increased to as much as 4450 tons). People like to focus on the maximum horsepower capabilities, but overlook the important performance differences in the speed range where these locomotives operated more frequently. The Allegheny had 35,000lbs less weight on drivers, smaller cylinders, and lower boiler pressure, all of which are significant drawbacks for a locomotive intended to haul heavy trains on mountain grades. As a result, the Big Boys developed more horsepower than the Allegheny up to 25mph, allowing faster acceleration from stops, and offsetting some of the Allegheny's horsepower advantage at higher speeds. With respect to whether the Big Boy would have been nimble enough to handle mainline coal trains in C&O territory, they could negotiate 20 degree curves and were shorter in overall height than the Allegheny. The only question would be whether clearances to adjacent tracks on the C&O mainline would permit their operation, however let's not forget that the Allegheny was itself a very large machine.
Well, you make a good point about the axle loading, east coast roads in general where built with heavier trackage.
As for the nimble thing, I am aware of the abilities of the BigBoy on curves, but locos with longer engine wheel bases cannot maintain higher speeds around sharper curves, loose TE faster on sharper curves, etc.
An over all examination of eastern power vs western powers shows this difference.
Western roads had/have great "straight a ways" where their tall drivers locos could stretch their legs. And if they had to slow down for some curves in some mountains that was ok.
But in the east straight a ways are rare, every line, level or in the mountains, is one curve after another winding thru the soft hills of the piedmont or around other pre-existing or natural obstacles (Bays, rivers, existing cities, not to mention our smaller, but in some ways more challenging mountains).
So smaller drivers and shorter rigid wheel bases allow moderate speeds on more milage.
The B&O learned this lesson with their 2-10-2's. After dumping one over on the old mainline, they stayed on the straighter Pittsburgh route. The old mainline required the articulated locos, draging coal or cruising along with general merchandise.
The Big Boy was built for a job, it did it well. The Allegheny was built to be more versitile (because that is what LIMA was selling with "Super Power"), and its "supposed" mis-use possibly proves how versitile.
But I could be wrong.....
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