Is Metro-North aware of the Danbury Museam's problems as discussed in the News item? New York City's Mayor and the governors of both New York and Connecticut should be made aware. These locomotives were important in both states' histories. (The Manhattan electrification opened in 1906, seven years before Grand Central Terminal completely replaced Grand Central Depot. Until the opening of the New Haven's initial electrification to New Rochelle in 1910, S-motors handled New Havern Trains Grand Central - Wiiliams Bridge Bridge or Woodlawn, amd continued for the light moves GCT - Harmon Yards into the McGinnis era.)
Metro North should use these locomotives for "Nostalgia SpecIals" as the Transit Authority does with preserved Subway and elevated trains. Metro North should restore the Danbury Museum's New Haven EF-3 (ex-Virginian-N&W-PC) for 60-HZ capability, and New Haven nostalgia specials would change engines at Mount Vernon East.
Grand Central Terminal would simply not have been operational without the T and S locomotives, and its restoration is not complete until these locomotives are restored.
The issue appears to be that the contracted site-development managers for the ex-powerplant property are throwing wrenches in the path of extracting the two electric locomotives. There is a developing thread on RyPN about this, which includes the current appeal for additional funding to move the locomotives... I won't paraphrase the museum's communication again here.
Apparently the scrappers of the RS3 and, very very regrettably, the U25B don't seem to have these problems. That bothers me. Supposedly the locomotives sit on where the access road for the first part of the property to be redeveloped is. But they can't move them 'out of the way' because the track crosses a natural-gas pipeline that can't be damaged... so they have to build some kind of temporary support that is more difficult than I really comprehend it should be. Remains to be seen what the solution will shake out to be.
I'm no engineer, but I find it hard to believe that a natural gas pipeline that's 30' down is genuinely at risk.
daveklepperGrand Central Terminal would simply not have been operational without the T and S locomotives, and its restoration is not complete until these locomotives are restored.
GCT shines. To me, but not to you, the restorsation remains incomplete unless the electric "motors" that made its operation possi8ble have one example of each restored to operating condition. That is my feeling. and you hyqave a right to your opinion.
By editing, I correcdted an error. High Bridge is on the Hudson Division and was the first engine change point fo trasins on that division. Williasms Bridge is correct for Harlem Division and New Haven btrains' initial chsnge point.
Happy Thanksgiving, everyone.
Do I need to point out something that most readers know?
We are unhasppy that none of the Central's Hudsons were saved. Ditto for the Niagras. And happy that one Mowhawk was saved.
But all the New York City bound passenger trains hasuled by any of these locomotives had an engine-change at Harmon to a T on the head end -- and only a T until the end of the Cleveland Terminal electrification and the move of the Ps to Harmon.
Loosing the last T would be a tragedy.
(The monkeywrenching of the move over an un-cased, 30 ft deep Utility line (electric) amuses me to no end. The utility cowards are usually bitching and moaning about the railroads utility casing / installation rules. )
BTW - Utility lines at 30 ft or deeper, below the rail, installed by HDD methods, does not normally require casing per the AREMA suggested guidelines.
Metro North has not yet shown any interest in the problem. Possibly the Danbury museum is too afraid of losing title to involve them? MN can certainly provide the legally valid engineering analysis to simplify the movements and counter unfounded fears.
Is any reader living in Westchester County as concerned as I am and that is willing to write MN?
daveklepperMetro North has not yet shown any interest in the problem.
Honestly that doesn't surprise me, they're in the people-moving business not the historic preservation business. As the "successor" to the New York Central maybe they should be, but they're not and you can't make them want to.
And if the units ARE saved I can't see Metro-North running them on their lines for whatever reason. MAYBE they would, but I wouldn't bet the ranch on it.
Possibly there's an "angel" out there willing to fund and expedite the rescue but he or she hasn't made themselves known yet.
SW1s and NW2s switched out the Century and none of them have been saved, either.
BackshopSW1s and NW2s switched out the Century and none of them have been saved, either.
I can certainly see Metro North having a 'heritage' operation comparable to that which the MTA/NYCTA has with subways, and even operating restored equipment as they do. But my understanding of the two units in Albany is that they are severely deteriorated, and it might well be cheaper to try replicating them than rattempting to restore them to operable condition.
The priority is to get the 'historic fabric' out of jeopardy, and as I said on RyPN, at this point it might be fine to cut the carbodies up a la Milwaukee Skytop to get them out, rather than have them leave as scrap.
I'd certainly accept the disassemble option over the cut and scrap scenario if I really wanted them for my museum. They'd have to be torn down to the frame anyways for even a cosmetic restoration. So why not do as much as possible in situ and truck them out of there before it's too late. Somebody somewhere has to have the fundraising wherewithal to accomplish what MUST be done: saving irreplaceable historical artifacts.
Same me, different spelling!
Does the Danbury museum actually own the locos yet? It would be a great shame if they are lost.
Still in training.
My understanding: Yes, also the equipment to be sc rapped.
Flintlock76daveklepper Metro North has not yet shown any interest in the problem. Honestly that doesn't surprise me, they're in the people-moving business not the historic preservation business. As the "successor" to the New York Central maybe they should be, but they're not and you can't make them want to.
The MTA is the organization that runs the subways; it would be their historic collection at risk (and I have read nothing that even hints that it is, even with the budget woes).
Metro-North (full form "Metro-North Commuter Railroad") is the entity that handles the heavy rail trains. It shouldn't be hard to find whether they are in financial straits that would forbid their 'doing their part' in government assistance to retrieving and saving the two engines (and, possibly, extracting the 2510 if it hasn't been cut yet)
In a state whose governor is Kathy Hochul, I find it almost unbelievable that no one in the preservation community has done the necessary combination of networking and schmoozing to get everyone talking brass tacks about this, and raising public awareness. The historic importance, if not the 'wicked coolness', is far greater for these two motors than for any of the GG1s except Old Rivets -- since so many of the GG1s 'made it'.
I am waiting for the Danbury Museum to resopond to my suggestion to them that they contact the Governors of both states.
OvermodMetro-North (full form "Metro-North Commuter Railroad") is the entity that handles the heavy rail trains. It shouldn't be hard to find whether they are in financial straits that would forbid their 'doing their part' in government assistance to retrieving and saving the two engines (and, possibly, extracting the 2510 if it hasn't been cut yet)
Second, I have to question the comment about MNCR doing "its part" to rescue these machines. As an earlier poster has said, MNCR is chartered to be in the transportation, not in the historical restoration, museum or entertainment businesses. To think it has an obligation to do its "part" in any rescue effort is just plain wrongheaded. How does that get a single commuter to his or her destination faster or more reliably?
BEAUSABRE the people who used to pay taxes to work in New York city and/or state, are working from home - not a few in New Jersey and Connecticut.
Or they've migrated to other parts of the country.
https://www.ioptimizerealty.com/blog/top-states-people-are-leaving-outbound-moves#:~:text=1.,experienced%2C%2071%20percent%20were%20leaving.
BEAUSABREHow does that get a single commuter to his or her destination faster or more reliably?
Of course when I said 'doing their part' I meant throwing their official weight and authority, or providing staff assistance and management 'associations' and networks, behind the obtaining of grants and services to move the electrics or at least stabilize them on site pending actual removal and transportation. They don't need to assume title to the locomotives, pay for the restorations, or store and operate them, and I would not suggest that they "have" to do so.
Flintlock76Or they've migrated to other parts of the country.
No, they are all coming to where I live. Sucks.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann Flintlock76 Or they've migrated to other parts of the country. No, they are all coming to where I live. Sucks.
Flintlock76 Or they've migrated to other parts of the country.
Hey! I might wind up there! Maybe. Possibly. Not sure.
Although I have told people I want to go to Strasburg to die!
Once again, back in Glenmont...*So Mr. Klepper, who feels "its [GCT] restoration is not complete until these locomotives are restored." has not updated us with the news that the 2 NYC locomotives ("motors") in question have been given (a reprive of sorts). From another railfan magazine of sorts:
Two rare New York Central electrics have been temporarily moved out of the way of a new development at an old power plant near Albany, N.Y., giving their owner more time to raise funds and move them to a permanent home.......The locomotives both received “slight damage” during the move, which took place with the help of four “side boom” cranes. Museum officials said the two motors will be disassembled for final movement to Danbury.
*For some reason YouTube has been serving up video adaptions of old Don Martin (of Mad Magazine) cartoons, and since as a kid in the 1970s I loved reading Mad magazine I have to watch them. The cartoons would have similar titles to the one I wrote, like 'Another Fine Day...' or "Back at the park..." and so on.Also remember we are closer to 2070 than 1970.
chutton01Also remember we are closer to 2070 than 1970.
Thanks, I remember 1970 and you just scared the hell out of me!
(Not that I'm going to be around in 2070 anyway!)
Anyway, here's a link to that 12/29/22 Railfan article for those interested.
https://www.railfan.com/rare-new-york-central-electrics-safe-for-now/
The locomotives were moved via Hulcher sidebooms to a location on the 'far' side of the pipeline area. There is an interesting post on RyPN about some of the details.
Note that the move was enabled by Henry Posner III, and that 'no good deed goes unpunished' as the damage during the move is carefully noted.
I still think that a proper crowdsourced initiative combined with careful approach to companies like Silk Road might get the locomotives "saved" in much the same way as was planned forthe locomotive in Port Arthur when it faced a similar tight-deadline danger. I won't say anything further than that, because I am not aware of what is actually being done, and I don't want to 'queer' any positive relationships that may be being built.
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