Have a look at this- fascinating!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEP2fSuBv-Q
That DT & I locomotive looks like it was just painted.
That was fascinating all right! Too bad there's no date on the film, but I'm guessing it's prior to WW2 sometime. 1920's?
Considering the DT&I (nice!) and Ford locomotives I'm guessing that ship was turned into Model A's?
Early recycling- Henry was good at it. His shipping crates were recycled as floorboards in Model Ts.
That's likely to be shipping from the WWI boom, or ships made obsolete by newer craft built then. One of our boatnerds can work out whether these are all lakers o; one sort or other; they might dope out the blurred name visible on the bow of one of the ships pictured...
This would likely be after the postwar depression (remember the Prosperity Special on another 'coast'?) and it looks like the Rouge plant, so no later than mid-Twenties -- a film buff could probably date it from the stock and exposure, if it isn't known.
I knew about the showy 4-4-0 with the nickel-plated backhead appurtenances, but that 2-8-0 with Russia iron jacket kept trim... deserves some checking out.
During the Great War, merchant ships were built by the Emergency Fleet Corporation for operation by the Army, Navy or United States Shipping Board (through commercial firms acting as its agents)
Norman L. McKellar, Steel Shipbuilding under the U. S. Shipping Board, 1917-1921 (shipscribe.com)
"The USSB operated a shipping business with its surplus ships until 1920 when the overseas freight market collapsed and it began to lay up its vessels. In 1925 Henry Ford bought 199 of these out of service ships for $1,697,470 as part of an investigation into the secondary use of materials. The first ship reached the Ford River Rouge Complex in November the same year and all the remaining ships were broken down and recycled the following summer."
I think the ships being scrapped are members of the Design 1020 the "Laker Type A" class, so called because they were built on the Great Lakes (note - they were NOT of typical "Laker" ore boat configuration) Cargo Ships -- with One Smokestack, Two Single Masts, Three Raised Hull Islands, and No Paired Kingposts: EFC Design 1020 (shipscribe.com)
Design 1020 ships
Steel Shipbuilding Under the U.S. Shipping Board, 1917-1921 (shipscribe.com)
There was such a glut of war built vessels that the shipbuilding industry collapsed. The next freighter built in the US waited until 1934 - the sugar hauling SS Manuela of the Bull Line. Wreck of the Manuela (nc-wreckdiving.com)
Worth noting that only for ocean service did shipbuilding collapse. Quite a few lakers were built for US fleets during the 1920's.
It's my understanding that Seatrain's first additions to their fleet after the British built prototype proved to be a hit were the first significant order for new US built and flagged merchant ships for ocean going service after the postwar bust.
This was 1932 I believe and they were built by Sun Shipbuilding.
BEAUSABREThe first ship reached the Ford River Rouge Complex in November the same year and all the remaining ships were broken down and recycled the following summer."
That would certainly explain what's going on in the film. Thanks!
Thought I read of aircraft carrier being sold for 1 cent for scrapping. Was it the Kitty Hawk?
The Kitty Hawk and the John F. Kennedy were each sold for 1 penny for scrapping in Brownsville Texas.
The Kitty Hawk has or will soon depart Puget Sound under tow for the long trip around South America after removing paint and marine life from her hull underwater. The Kennedy still slumbers at the former Philadelphia Navy Shipyard, next in line when the Kitty Hawk disappears.
Also disappearing with them is the chance of a super carrier museum.
Leo_AmesAlso disappearing with them is the chance of a super carrier museum.
Which no one has the money or manpower to maintain - there's a reason they had a crew of thousands. Even musea with much smaller ships are struggling.
NATIONAL HISTORIC LANDMARK USS THE SULLIVANS IN DANGER OF SINKING - NAVAL PARK SEEKING $100,000 IN DONATIONS FOR EMERGENCY HULL REPAIRS - Buffalo Naval Park
Overmod I knew about the showy 4-4-0 with the nickel-plated backhead appurtenances, but that 2-8-0 with Russia iron jacket kept trim... deserves some checking out.
Somewhere I have a book on the DT&I. While not all locomotives looked like 2-8-0 #79, Henry Ford insisted that his locomotives be kept clean, because he believed that the operators would take better care of them, and minor problems would become obvious more quickly. Many parts, such as cab controls, were nickel plated to assist in meeting Ford's standards. I believe even the Russian Decapods received some of this treatment, although some older locomotives were retired without getting the Ford treatment.
Peter
BEAUSABREWhich no one has the money or manpower to maintain - there's a reason they had a crew of thousands. Even musea with much smaller ships are struggling.
Of course. But despite the seemingly impossible hurdles, I still wish our country had tried with at least one of them.
While the list of viable communities (Large population, thriving tourism, and not too close to other communities with preserved naval vessels) has dwindled thanks to a healthy amount of maritime heritage having been preserved in our country, there have been several communities that were serious.
Two that leap to mind were Providence and Pensacola. Both had a lot of funding lined up and a seemingly viable proposal that I'd of liked to have seen given a shot. But it's become next to impossible to secure a retired ship from the United States Navy that's on donation hold.
Failure of course is quite possible and and we've seen several such failures like the USS Cabot in modern times. And we're sadly going to see more losses in the years ahead of currently preserved ships as nature does its job to the ship's hull and as the generations that served aboard them fade away (Veterans groups for instance are a major source of visitor revenue).
But there have been plenty of surprises like the USS Intrepid that seemed like long shots at the time that have proven to be successful. But now it's over for the supercarrier, barring a change away from nuclear propulsion in the years ahead.
Just because 'donation' vessels get tied to piers in their Museum Years doesn't mean they don't need to be maintained - an maintaining them isn'f free.
https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/buffalo/news/2022/05/06/time-lapse-video-shows-sinking--refloating-of-uss-the-sullivans#
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
They'd better get serious about maintaining that ship or the Navy Department's likely to reposess it and hand it off to an organization that will.
Several years ago the Navy threatened the state of Texas with just that over their lack of maintanance of the battleship "Texas." These museum ships are loaners, not permanent gifts.
BaltACD Just because 'donation' vessels get tied to piers in their Museum Years doesn't mean they don't need to be maintained - an maintaining them isn'f free. https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/buffalo/news/2022/05/06/time-lapse-video-shows-sinking--refloating-of-uss-the-sullivans#
I wasn't suggesting otherwise.
Leo_Ames BaltACD Just because 'donation' vessels get tied to piers in their Museum Years doesn't mean they don't need to be maintained - an maintaining them isn'f free. https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/buffalo/news/2022/05/06/time-lapse-video-shows-sinking--refloating-of-uss-the-sullivans# I wasn't suggesting otherwise.
I know you weren't, however I think some of the Museum organizations believe once they have 'the ship' - they don't need to perform regular preventive maintenance so 'their ship' doesn't sink beneath the waves.
Any prospective group would be wise to start out reading all the back issues of the USS Slater's newsletter. They're an exemplary example of a naval museum ran right in this country and they've been chronicling their work and all the challenges that have went along with it, pretty much since day 1.
I'd like to think that the USS The Sullivans group was fooled by fresh water, but I believe I've been hearing of a leaking hull for many years now. So it's not as if it was a sudden surprise or they hadn't had a lot of time to work on this problem before it came to this.
At least if she's able to be drydocked and properly repaired like is hoped, I imagine she can look forward to many decades of watertight integrity by virtue of being located on the Great Lakes. As 40+ years of inactivity for the John Sherwin and C.T.C. No. 1 demonstrate, a ship can survive many decades on the Great Lakes with little to no attention to the hull without serious issue, as long as she started out with a sound hull.
I know that I've mentioned this before, but the curator of the USS New Jersey has a good Youtube channel. He said it's best if a group only has one ship. Extra ships don't bring in hardly any extra revenue but contribute a lot of extra expenses. The Buffalo group is a good example. Their main attraction is the cruiser, USS Little Rock. That's what people come to see. Ship geeks will come just for it. It's enough of an attraction to bring people in. It's not like people say "I wouldn't go just for the cruiser but since they also have a destroyer, I'll visit". You also spread your volunteer staff too thinly.
I'd like to think that the story of the Sullivan brothers is still a draw for them.
There's a lot of truth to what he says, as seen by several museum ship losses in this country by groups that spread themselves too thin. Eventually they had to focus on their leading exhibit or risk losing even that, forcing them to deaccess their other display and return it to the navy.
Is about to happen again to the WWII submarine USS Clamagore. Patriot's Point has decided to dispose of her, a few years after almost losing one of the most historic ships in preservation in the US (The USS Laffey, saved at the 11th hour like everyone hopes will happen in Buffalo). The Yorktown is their leading exhibit and the recipient of most of their limited funds.
It's unfortunate they couldn't of moved her to a dry berth like some other subs, but that too takes money.
Leo_AmesIt's unfortunate they couldn't have moved her to a dry berth like some other subs, but that too takes money.
Well I remember the machinations regarding the locomotive in Port Arthur, TX, which was about to be destroyed this same underhanded way -- perhaps even partly subsidized with taxpayer money.
Leo_AmesI'd like to think that the story of the Sullivan brothers is still a draw for them.
Who? As a retired career Army officer, it pains me, but ninety-nine point nine percent of US citizens have never heard the story and most of those who have don't care. It's been eighty years. The vast majority of Americans have never served in the military, have no relatives who ever served in the military and don't know anyone who has ever served in the military. I've heard the response to the story not be "What an amazing sacrifice" but be "That was dumb, all of them on the same ship". Patriotism is looked down upon. The military is viewed as a career for rednecks of limited IQ and murderous disposition - according to our own government veterans are one of the most dangerous elements in our society. Watch the frenzy at a schoolboard meeting if a teacher suggests a field trip to a site that "glorifies weapons, violence and death"
Leo_AmesThere's a lot of truth to what he says, as seen by several museum ship losses in this country by groups that spread themselves too thin. Eventually they had to focus on their leading exhibit or risk losing even that, forcing them to deaccess their other display and return it to the navy.
There's an important element here for the rail preservation movement. You've got to figure out your core mission and devote your resources to it. Way too many groups have tried to "save everything" regardless of whether another group was already preserving it or its historical importance (there's always somebody who falls in love with X, gets the organization to acquire it, devotes time to it, then dies/retires/is transferred and the organization is stuck with another item it can't afford to maintain). Folks, people want to see exhibits in good repair, who wants to visit a collection of rusting junk (which is how the 99.98 percent (the non-railfan) public sees such places)?
https://youtu.be/3HiTVUNRcmk
Same me, different spelling!
Rail preservation groups neglect one of the basic tennants. Get a shed over the equipment is a start. I have seen too many good pieces of equipment go bad in the rail, wind, snow, freezing cold making ice that breaks equipment. Then enclose the shed during bad weather to provide additional protection.
These basics are what our posters are getting at. You provide facilities to prevent any more deteoriation. Also have a location that will not flood. If you can't then you do not deserve the equipment.
BEAUSABRELeo_AmesI'd like to think that the story of the Sullivan brothers is still a draw for them. Who? As a retired career Army officer, it pains me, but ninety-nine point nine percent of US citizens have never heard the story and most of those who have don't care.
I sadly don't disagree.
I worded what I said very carefully knowing that I'm stating what I wish the situation was, aware that the reality is the exact opposite.
BEAUSABREPatriotism is looked down upon. The military is viewed as a career for rednecks of limited IQ and murderous disposition
In some quarters, but far from all. I won't go further since it would turn the thread political and we don't want to go there.
I'm sure that's best. I'll just say that I disagree with the idea that the military is looked down upon.
Leo_Ames I'd like to think that the story of the Sullivan brothers is still a draw for them.
I first learned about "The Sullivans" from the directions that came with the Revell model of DD-537 (this would have late 1966 or early 67). Learned a bit more from the Time-Life WW2 book series.
Another story that seems to be fading away is the story of Rodger Young, which I remember from the episode of "The Great Adventure". It was vivid enough in the late 50's and early 60's that the star ship in HeinLein's "Starship Troopers" was named after him. On a related SciFI note, the crashed starship in the circa 2010 Star Trek movie was the "Franklin" - watched that with my son and he had no grasp of the symbolism of the name.
With the Battle of Midway concluding 80 years ago, WW2 for my kids is slightly farther in the past than the Spanish American war was for me at their age.
Erik_MagAnother story that seems to be fading away is the story of Rodger Young, which I remember from the episode of "The Great Adventure".
I remember that series! I loved it as a kid! Unfortunately like most anthology-type TV series it never found an audience and didn't last long. TV viewers prefer shows with a regular cast they can get attached to and follow. The only anthology series I can think of that was sucessful is "The Twilight Zone."
There's episodes of "The Great Adventure" posted on YouTube if anyone's interested. Some great storytelling!
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0037323/
or this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kvvNoXw2-0
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