Even with low pressure systems such as steam heating systems, you have to be careful not to put too much water into the boiler. My first two years in college, I had the (paid) responsibility to go around every night, fill stokers, and check water levels. About midnight, one Saurday night in my last January in college, the house president, apparently thinking I still had some responsibilty, came pounding up to my room about midnight, and exclaimed, "A STEAM PIPE HAD BURST IN THE BASEMENT!" I went down, and found hot water dripping from an overhead radiator (you do not notice a steam leak overhead, but when hot water starts dripping on you....) I immediately knew WHY the water was dripping--the boy who had the responsibility had looked at the water glass, thought more water was needed, opened the inlet valve, filled the stoker, and went on his way.
I went back to my room, put some clothes on (it was cold outside), went down, out and around to the boiler room. went in, closed the inlet, opened an 1 1/2" valve--an hour later, I closed that valve and went back to bed. I do not think that the boy would have known any more than to close the inlet, for I doubt that he had been exposed to the existence of the valve I opened.
Monday morning, I told the Superintendent of Buildings and Grounds of the event, and told him he owed me an hour--and he laughed (the night attendant was given credit of one hour each night; it seldom took me even half an hour)
Johnny
"Foaming" and "priming" are technically two somewhat different things, but they have the same general effect.
Remember that you can't, and don't, fill a conventional boiler 'all the way up' with water. This is true even if you're going to be running the engine up and down severe grades and both the longitudinal 'slosh' and the danger of uncovering part of the crown need to be addressed ... often via carrying more water than is sensible 'on the level'. If you wonder why the top of the firebox is so far below the shell in a radial-shell firebox ... or why the crown and top in a Belpaire box slope backward toward the cab in a good design ... this is part of the 'reason why'
MEANWHILE most people have no real idea of what water in a boiler actually looks and behaves like, just as they don't realize quite how many drop plugs would be required in a Super-Power firebox to have the 'desired effect' in the advertising. Porta famously commented that it is like 'boiling milk' and if you've ever had to snatch a saucepan off the stove when scalding and the foam rises up you will appreciate just what he means. In that foam are both solids (see a discussion of 'TDS' about them) and a considerable amount of water, and if any of that gets through the mouth of the dry pipe you have carryover.
Further meanwhile, on many locomotives the dry pipe mouth is 'safely' up in a dome, but on modern locomotives this can be abbreviated in actual height, or in modern designs actually 'missing' and replaced with some fancy arrangement of steam-separator paraphernalia as in Niagaras. The fun comes in when you open the throttle a bit too fast, or the engine requires substantial mass flow of steam: this can cause a relative loss of pressure in the region around the mouth of the dry pipe, and this can extend in effect down toward the foaming region, and even to the substantially-liquid part of the 'interface'. At which point the same effect that drives boiler explosions starts to be facilitated in the water 'under' the low pressure, and the developed distributed nucleate boiling makes the liquid, and of course all the foaming above it, rise up in that area.
In the 'why can't I catch a break' department: modern boiler-water treatment greatly predisposes foaming, to the point that any good treatment must include a 'sacrificial' antifoam, which has to be continually replenished. This is one of the secret weapons in the Porta-McMahon treatment (now commercialized as "Porta Treatment" by McMahon, who I continue to think deserves his own mention in the name) that makes it possible to run a 'mobilized sludge' in the boiler rather than blow down early and often, sliming everything including railheads in the vicinity as you go.
Some very clever minds developed various patent thingies to cope with this foaming and priming, most notably the Elesco Steam Dryer that has featured in some threads here. The principle is generally to impart some spin to the steam flow going into the dry pipe, the initial idea being to provide a little drip channel "outside" the cyclone action where the 'water' would be flung and then obediently run down into the boiler again. Some savvy operators, Canadians prominent among them, soon figured out that the separated liquid-phase carryover was not obediently following the little arrows in the drawings ... and that it was best to pipe them directly out of the boiler and 'over the side' rather than trying to reclaim them.
You have to have a LOT of carryover to pose a great danger in a working locomotive; much of the actual problem is that much of the carryover will have its solids 'plate out' going through the superheater, which over time can induce a number of not-very-happy problems in the element metallurgy and construction. The greatest part of the fun, though, comes in slipping relatively soon after a stop, where the elements and combustion gas are relatively cool and the steam circuit cold enough to cause prompt condensation of the inlet steam. Here much of the carryover goes, often TDS and all, right down to the valves and cylinders, where even if you have inadequate little cylinder cocks open and Okadees present and accounted for, you might easily get enough instantaneous hydraulic lock to stretch cylinder-head studs... or worse. (And see the famous picture of Niagara spaghetti rods to see what some of the 'worse' effects of suddenly-arrested reciprocating motion can involve!)
General practice of 'wise heads' is to keep the cocks open any time you detect any sort of mushing or carryover -- in the old days you could 'hear this in the exhaust' and I suspect you still can in proper modern low-back-pressure front ends, with enough experience or 'ear training'. Of course your overall water rate, net of all that expensive chemistry and 'enthalpic enhancement', goes toward the moon when you do this. Many current operators, aware of the value of intact equipment to their franchise and knowing that fuel cost is only about 5% of overall venture cost, 'err on the side of conservatism' and run to minimize carryover effects wherever they can...
How does too much water get in there?
From overuse of the injector, or injectors, the apparatus for feeding water from the tender into the boiler. Again if I remember right the boiler water glasses, or columns that indicate the boilers water level on the backhead in the engine cab, should show about 2/3'ds full, more or less, any more than that and you're inviting foaming and carry-over due to an over-filled boiler. If there's any experienced steam guys out there please feel more than free to correct me if I'm wrong.
I saw the YouTube viewer's comment and watched the video again. Honestly everything looked OK to me, the only thing I would question is all the steam appearing around the cylinders. Either there was a problem with the cylinder packing causing steam to leak, or the engine crew were running with the cylinder cocks open for dramatic effect knowing there was a camera crew on site.
Be advised, everything I know about steam locomotives comes from the books and other Forum posters, I've never had the priviledge of running one myself, so there's no way I can call myself an expert on this.
Flintlock76 Murphy Siding Flintlock76 From "All coronavirus, all the time!" news coverage? Yeah, don't we all! Well here's a good distraction with lots of happy stuff! It's the Penn Rail Video site! I'll start you off with this one, New Hope & Ivyland #40 doing some smart running! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WLIt97u1VY The rest are here, you can pick out your own. https://www.youtube.com/user/csx6000 Have fun! I'm going to! One of the comments says the the locomotive is carrying over or foaming. What does that mean? If I remember correctly, "foaming" or "carrying over" usually means there's too much water in the boiler and not enough room for the steam generated. It leads to water getting into the steam passages and down into the valves and cylinders. Not good. It affects the locomotive's performance adversely and can lead to cylinder damage. Do you remember which video had the "foaming" comment? A lot of times I don't bother with the viewer comments after watching a YouTube video.
Murphy Siding Flintlock76 From "All coronavirus, all the time!" news coverage? Yeah, don't we all! Well here's a good distraction with lots of happy stuff! It's the Penn Rail Video site! I'll start you off with this one, New Hope & Ivyland #40 doing some smart running! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WLIt97u1VY The rest are here, you can pick out your own. https://www.youtube.com/user/csx6000 Have fun! I'm going to! One of the comments says the the locomotive is carrying over or foaming. What does that mean?
Flintlock76 From "All coronavirus, all the time!" news coverage? Yeah, don't we all! Well here's a good distraction with lots of happy stuff! It's the Penn Rail Video site! I'll start you off with this one, New Hope & Ivyland #40 doing some smart running! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WLIt97u1VY The rest are here, you can pick out your own. https://www.youtube.com/user/csx6000 Have fun! I'm going to!
From "All coronavirus, all the time!" news coverage? Yeah, don't we all!
Well here's a good distraction with lots of happy stuff! It's the Penn Rail Video site!
I'll start you off with this one, New Hope & Ivyland #40 doing some smart running!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WLIt97u1VY
The rest are here, you can pick out your own. https://www.youtube.com/user/csx6000
Have fun! I'm going to!
One of the comments says the the locomotive is carrying over or foaming. What does that mean?
If I remember correctly, "foaming" or "carrying over" usually means there's too much water in the boiler and not enough room for the steam generated. It leads to water getting into the steam passages and down into the valves and cylinders. Not good. It affects the locomotive's performance adversely and can lead to cylinder damage.
Do you remember which video had the "foaming" comment? A lot of times I don't bother with the viewer comments after watching a YouTube video.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Superheated steam with water in it is not good since water does not compress. I understand that on a superheated locomotive, water in the cylinders can blow the heads off. I recall a photo of a PRR locomotive in Trains years ago where that happened.
Flintlock76 No thanks to him. His activity seems to consist of ignoring the fact that infected people are asymptomatic for 4-5 days and some never show symptoms at all while being infectious. So, Mcfarlane, go on out there about your business as usual and bring a dose home to Pop. Maybe they will let you drive by and honk as they put him in the ground. Convicted One Flintlock76 From "All coronavirus, all the time!" news coverage? Yeah, don't we all! Well here's a good distraction with lots of happy stuff! It's the Penn Rail Video site! I'll start you off with this one, New Hope & Ivyland #40 doing some smart running! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WLIt97u1VY The rest are here, you can pick out your own. https://www.youtube.com/user/csx6000 Have fun! I'm going to! Can I copy and paste long-winded dissertations of copywrited materials published elsewhere including the in-line links from the other source? C-O, if I understand your question it's OK to show the link to any possible copyrighted material, but not the material itself. We had a hassle over this a while back. Some of the stuff another poster was displaying was so old I couldn't believe it was still copyrighted but the moderators still went into a tizzy over it. Best just to show the link, that way no-one gets in trouble. And Mr. McFarlane, thanks for all you do as a FERO!
No thanks to him. His activity seems to consist of ignoring the fact that infected people are asymptomatic for 4-5 days and some never show symptoms at all while being infectious. So, Mcfarlane, go on out there about your business as usual and bring a dose home to Pop. Maybe they will let you drive by and honk as they put him in the ground.
Convicted One Flintlock76 From "All coronavirus, all the time!" news coverage? Yeah, don't we all! Well here's a good distraction with lots of happy stuff! It's the Penn Rail Video site! I'll start you off with this one, New Hope & Ivyland #40 doing some smart running! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WLIt97u1VY The rest are here, you can pick out your own. https://www.youtube.com/user/csx6000 Have fun! I'm going to! Can I copy and paste long-winded dissertations of copywrited materials published elsewhere including the in-line links from the other source?
Can I copy and paste long-winded dissertations of copywrited materials published elsewhere including the in-line links from the other source?
C-O, if I understand your question it's OK to show the link to any possible copyrighted material, but not the material itself. We had a hassle over this a while back. Some of the stuff another poster was displaying was so old I couldn't believe it was still copyrighted but the moderators still went into a tizzy over it.
Best just to show the link, that way no-one gets in trouble.
And Mr. McFarlane, thanks for all you do as a FERO!
Paul Milenkovic This is only a fantasy, but what that tram driver needs is an air-powered paint sprayer -- or maybe one of those paint-ball guns.
This is only a fantasy, but what that tram driver needs is an air-powered paint sprayer -- or maybe one of those paint-ball guns.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
54light15This will cheer you up- it's my thing, the narrow gauge railways of Eastern Germany: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COqFD6Eu9pQ I've done the entire Harz system about 10 years ago- I have got to get back there. It's a serious operation, without a doubt.
Suddenly I feel like putting up my Christmas tree...
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
Geez... wonder what the accident rate is, cars and pedestrians. I now appreciate my job better!
https://youtu.be/W5KC71NhYHg
These "Life of a Tram Driver" videos are strangely hypnotic. But I want to send them over some real air horns.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
+1 to Zug's comment. Sing it Brother!
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
zugmann OP: "let's talk about stuff other than Corona on this thread!" Trains forum people: "Ok, let's talk only about Corona on this thread!"
OP: "let's talk about stuff other than Corona on this thread!"
Trains forum people: "Ok, let's talk only about Corona on this thread!"
Uh, yeah. Personally I'm not going to say another word about coronavirus unless someone asks my opinion of all the goings-on.
Loved everyone elses videos! Those diesel vids were interesting, and that German narrow-gauge one was very picturesque!
Flintlock76From "All coronavirus, all the time!" news coverage? Yeah, don't we all! Well here's a good distraction with lots of happy stuff! It's the Penn Rail Video site! I'll start you off with this one, New Hope & Ivyland #40 doing some smart running! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WLIt97u1VY The rest are here, you can pick out your own. https://www.youtube.com/user/csx6000 Have fun! I'm going to!
.
York1 John
BaltACD GERALD L MCFARLANE JR Overmod Better this than what Steve Otte's doing over on the Model Railroader side, enforcing escapism by forbidding any mention of the 'current unpleasantness' at all. It's their site and they're allowed to police them as they see fit, I personally see nothing wrong with forbidding the discussion of the current events on any site dedicated to a specific hobby. Why bother when there's thousands of other sites talking about this ad nauseum, I literally avoid internet news because I'm tired of it already. This forum deals with the REAL WORLD that REAL RAILROADS operate in - you can't divorce the present conditions of the world from the REAL WORLD. All those employed individuals on here have to deal with the present conditions as do all railroaders that are on here. Reality is REAL, not a TV show.
GERALD L MCFARLANE JR Overmod Better this than what Steve Otte's doing over on the Model Railroader side, enforcing escapism by forbidding any mention of the 'current unpleasantness' at all. It's their site and they're allowed to police them as they see fit, I personally see nothing wrong with forbidding the discussion of the current events on any site dedicated to a specific hobby. Why bother when there's thousands of other sites talking about this ad nauseum, I literally avoid internet news because I'm tired of it already.
Overmod Better this than what Steve Otte's doing over on the Model Railroader side, enforcing escapism by forbidding any mention of the 'current unpleasantness' at all.
Better this than what Steve Otte's doing over on the Model Railroader side, enforcing escapism by forbidding any mention of the 'current unpleasantness' at all.
This forum deals with the REAL WORLD that REAL RAILROADS operate in - you can't divorce the present conditions of the world from the REAL WORLD. All those employed individuals on here have to deal with the present conditions as do all railroaders that are on here. Reality is REAL, not a TV show.
The heck you can't, and the Model Railroader site has nothing to do with the Real World so eliminating talk about the virus from that site is a valid moderating point. I don't know where you come from but I find all sorts of instances of divorcing present conditions from the real world.
I work too, as a matter of fact I'm mandated to work since I'm considered a "Federal Emergency Response Officer", but work is a drag because everyone is sitting at home cooped up inside. I'm expecting a spike real soon in violent home crimes if this shelter-in-place continues much longer, just because of human nature.
There's talk of extending our shelter-in-place until the end of the month, this on top of the fact we've already been sheltering-in-place since the 18th of March. Six f'ing weeks of shelter-in-place, why not just turn everyone into hermits while we're at it. I get the older generation and people with certain pre-existing conditions are more vulnerable and susceptible to getting COVID-19 and potentially passing on, my dad is 88 so he falls in that category, but I'm of the mind to have those people shelter-in-place and let the rest of us healthier individuals go on about our lives.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
CSSHEGEWISCH Miningman Just the way it was growing up in Burlington, CNR, CPR, TH&B, little trains, big trains. When Diesels came all the charm disappeared. Nothing was ever the same. Nothing was ever the same when Will Woodard developed Super Power steam to advance from USRA and earlier designs. Nothing was ever the same when steel cars replaced wood. Progress always involves change.
Miningman Just the way it was growing up in Burlington, CNR, CPR, TH&B, little trains, big trains. When Diesels came all the charm disappeared. Nothing was ever the same.
Just the way it was growing up in Burlington, CNR, CPR, TH&B, little trains, big trains. When Diesels came all the charm disappeared. Nothing was ever the same.
In 30 years, if we still walk the Earth, we will be wondering why the railroads ran such short 15K foot trains........
This will cheer you up- it's my thing, the narrow gauge railways of Eastern Germany: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COqFD6Eu9pQ
I've done the entire Harz system about 10 years ago- I have got to get back there. It's a serious operation, without a doubt.
Sam,
You mean to say those beatings did not improve morale?
He parachuted in, to 'moderate' the TRAINS Forums...
After a few days (maybe, weeks(?). They shot him back to the children's side of the business In his short term trying to 'moderate ' the adults' on this side of the Forums... He was about as unhappy, and unwelcome, as the current virus, going around... I think, that was about the time that Murphy Siding, and Selector took mental health breaks, from 'moderating'???
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