First of all, let me say that anyone can do anything that they want with their own money. That being said, is restoring a large steam locomotive to operation fiscally wasteful? With it being so hard to get a Class 1 to let anyone else's locomotive to operate on their track, why bother? How many cosmetic restorations of other locomotives could be done for the price of one operating?
There is nothing like a living, breathing smokem up steam engine in actual operation. In reality, a full to operation restoration does more to save a locomotive long run than the typical stuff and mount seen so often. The immense popular excitement of seeing a large engine in operation also stimulates more interest in our history. The steam engine helped build this country and should not be forgotten. Sure, many Cl1 roads do not allow operation, but the groups who have worked with those roads and LISTENED to the experts so as to not tick off those needed to allow a run has a lot to do with whether they can ever run or not. It isn't the locomotive most of the time. It is the group.
Other roads like UP are in house. Others allow foreign operators, but again their road, thei rules. It is unbelieveable the logistics to operate, plus insurance, etc, which makes it so hard to accomplish. but, it does happen. I'll take a running engine anyday.
Class 1's might not want then groups, but then you have plenty of regional railroads that have the capability of allowing a large steam locomotive to run on their lines that are quite willing to do so(even if the majority are owned by only 2 companies) or you have in areas close to the big cities, government run transit agencies that aren't against it either.
It all depends on the locomotive owner and the host railroad. BNSF has no problem letting MILW 261 operate(and without a protection diesel tucked in behind the tender). Next door, CP does not want anything to do with the engine. Last weekend 261 operated several trips on TC&W - Go Figure...
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
In my book even short runs like the 25 mile (50 there and back) CVSR trip I took a couple of weeks ago are infinately more impressive than a rusting hulk in a cramped museum. These beasts belong running free in the wild! OK, I know that's hokey...
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
Penny your spot on. One of the best run excursion in the east. It's hard to explain or interrupt s steamer that is not operational.
It's so hard to believe that steam town still lacks an operational main line steam locomotive. The round house and turn table are just great start.
It's only wasteful if the restorers don't plan ahead as to where they're going to run it, kind of like a guy who builds a boat in his back yard and then can't get it out past the house.
Firelock76It's only wasteful if the restorers don't plan ahead as to where they're going to run it
Not even wasteful then ... unless the restorers' business model for doing the work involves running it somewhere it turns out they can't.
A number of aircraft have recently been restored to full flyable condition. Assuredly no one is going to take them into the air, let alone run regular trips with them. Was it a waste to put the thing back in full original condition?
The same is true for a number of automobile restorations, where actually putting gas and oil in the thing and starting it would destroy some of the 100-point concours value. I don't consider all the work needed in the 'hidden' areas of things like engine, differential, and dashboard to be wasteful... others might.
There is another side to this discussion, too, which finds its extreme case in locomotives like RDG 2100 on its little trip to the Pacific Northwest, or the productions of the Golden Rock shops. That is where you build or modify the thing to run it in steam (or some facsimile thereof, as with that Cloquet Terminal fiasco) without restoring it with any regard to historical accuracy or completeness. Naturally it's wasteful to do that stuff if you can't actually run it afterward (or, as in the case of 2100, no one can run it well enough to do what you modified it for) but was it reprehensible to try that way?
RME Firelock76 It's only wasteful if the restorers don't plan ahead as to where they're going to run it Not even wasteful then ... unless the restorers' business model for doing the work involves running it somewhere it turns out they can't. A number of aircraft have recently been restored to full flyable condition. Assuredly no one is going to take them into the air, let alone run regular trips with them. Was it a waste to put the thing back in full original condition? The same is true for a number of automobile restorations, where actually putting gas and oil in the thing and starting it would destroy some of the 100-point concours value. I don't consider all the work needed in the 'hidden' areas of things like engine, differential, and dashboard to be wasteful... others might. There is another side to this discussion, too, which finds its extreme case in locomotives like RDG 2100 on its little trip to the Pacific Northwest, or the productions of the Golden Rock shops. That is where you build or modify the thing to run it in steam (or some facsimile thereof, as with that Cloquet Terminal fiasco) without restoring it with any regard to historical accuracy or completeness. Naturally it's wasteful to do that stuff if you can't actually run it afterward (or, as in the case of 2100, no one can run it well enough to do what you modified it for) but was it reprehensible to try that way?
Firelock76 It's only wasteful if the restorers don't plan ahead as to where they're going to run it
There is a big difference (beyond cost). If I restore a car, I can drive it almost anywhere, even if it is an antique. Ditto with an aircraft as long as it passes inspections, etc. Not such a sure bet with a restored & operational steam or diesel engine here. And given the span of restoration time, permission granted initially when be revoked by a new management team on formerly friendly Railroad X. Eg., AFAIK, CSX predecessor Chessie used to run steam excursions on the old WM in the late 70s, but not these days.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimmIf I restore a car, I can drive it almost anywhere, even if it is an antique. Ditto with an aircraft as long as it passes inspections, etc.
The point I am making here is a little different: it is that very large sums of money were expended specifically to make a vehicle fully operable, with the full understanding that it will never actually be operated. It would only be a waste to spend such care and attention on a steam locomotive -- by direct comparison -- if it were necessary, or expected, for the engine to actually run in service to justify the restoration, and that were not possible (for one of the reasons mentioned so far, or any other.)
Personally, while I'm delighted to see big steam running, I'm almost as happy to know that (1) the physical locomotive is preserved, and (2) it is in full operable condition. That's part of the point about the T1 Trust that is doing 5550: it's the existence of the locomotive, not seeing it run 120mph or see regular service of some kind, that is the point of the effort. (As with ATSF 2626: everything more they might do with that locomotive after getting it in full running shape is gravy, and yes, I do love any amount of gravy when I get it ... but I'm just fine with the roast beef and mashed potatoes otherwise...)
schlimmDitto with an aircraft as long as it passes inspections, etc.
I'd love to see someone restore an Eastern Airlines 727 and fly excursions with it! That's the first plane I ever flew on and it would be great to recreate the experience!
Back to ground transportation, here are 2 of several I saw today. Reading 2100 and GTW 4070:
RME A number of aircraft have recently been restored to full flyable condition. Assuredly no one is going to take them into the air, let alone run regular trips with them. Was it a waste to put the thing back in full original condition? The same is true for a number of automobile restorations, where actually putting gas and oil in the thing and starting it would destroy some of the 100-point concours value. I don't consider all the work needed in the 'hidden' areas of things like engine, differential, and dashboard to be wasteful... others might.
I understand that and agree with it, but I doubt that most people would agree or see the point of building or rebuilding a fully operational locomotive with no intention of operating it. Most would see the non-opertional locomotive as a compromise or less than perfect compared to an operating locomotive. And with that compromise, would come the expectation that the locomotive is partly cosmetic and not necessarily fully functional and capable of operation.
So I am wondering how you would explain the justification for restoring a machine to perfect operating condition with no intenion of operating it as you cite with your examples of automobile and aircraft restorations.
Penny Trains schlimm Ditto with an aircraft as long as it passes inspections, etc. I'd love to see someone restore an Eastern Airlines 727 and fly excursions with it! That's the first plane I ever flew on and it would be great to recreate the experience!
schlimm Ditto with an aircraft as long as it passes inspections, etc.
Lots of luck even finding one. The short B727-025s all went to the scrappers. The freight / pass QCs ( quick change ) went to Fed Ex and believe they are gone as well, The streach B-727-225s have either been scrapped or went to freight conversions and probably scrapped. The few B-727-225As ( the larger PW JT8D-17A enginess ) were also converted to freighter until a few years ago but ??? Unfortunately the freight conversions changed the floor loading schedule by changing the stringers and adding a cargo door. That would almost preclude any conversion back to passenger configuration.
Current freighters are B757, B767, B737-700/800/900, A-300, a few DC-8s, B747 and a spattering of other makes including the Russian colossos AN 124-200s which can load international containers.
The reason for scrapping 727s was a matter of fuel consumption. A B-767 freighter can carry twice the freight with a total fuel consumption less than a 727. a 757 freighter can carry three more igloos with a lower fuel consumption. (727 11-12)
blue streak 1The short B727-025s all went to the scrappers.
Kinda like steam locomotives. Some airliners should be saved. Maybe this too will become an era for restoration, preservation and operation societies.
RME schlimm If I restore a car, I can drive it almost anywhere, even if it is an antique. Ditto with an aircraft as long as it passes inspections, etc. The point I am making here is a little different: it is that very large sums of money were expended specifically to make a vehicle fully operable, with the full understanding that it will never actually be operated. It would only be a waste to spend such care and attention on a steam locomotive -- by direct comparison -- if it were necessary, or expected, for the engine to actually run in service to justify the restoration, and that were not possible (for one of the reasons mentioned so far, or any other.) Personally, while I'm delighted to see big steam running, I'm almost as happy to know that (1) the physical locomotive is preserved, and (2) it is in full operable condition. That's part of the point about the T1 Trust that is doing 5550: it's the existence of the locomotive, not seeing it run 120mph or see regular service of some kind, that is the point of the effort. (As with ATSF 2626: everything more they might do with that locomotive after getting it in full running shape is gravy, and yes, I do love any amount of gravy when I get it ... but I'm just fine with the roast beef and mashed potatoes otherwise...)
schlimm If I restore a car, I can drive it almost anywhere, even if it is an antique. Ditto with an aircraft as long as it passes inspections, etc.
I doubt if the UK or Germany would have so many restored, operable steam locos (even some new ones in the UK) if they could only sit in a museum and never run.
I think it is important to restore cars, trucks, tractors, trains, planes, boats, buildings and what not because it preserves history, technology and sometimes lost skills. All of these things are beautiful in 3 dimensions but if you have the werewithall, skills and place to operate them then you have moving art. The fourth dimension as it were. Spending time and money on restoring the unseen insides of a piece of equipment is just as important as the outside because again, it preserves history and skills. If it has the chance to operate then it is a real piece of living breathing art. sights, sounds, feelings, even smells. I don't think too many will want to taste, but you never know. The other thing tat operating these things does is give young and old people an opportunity to see what the shops or offices people used to work in were like. The conditions people had to operate, work and live in. How hard or skilled the jobs were. How many people it took to do a job compared to today. It should inspire wonder, thanks and new ideas. It should insprire respect for what has been accomplished by those before us and those who have restored and operate them today. No more throw away society please. Now I go back to helping restore a 1914 Davenport 0-4-0 and a variety of WW2 aircraft along with my sacred MG's.
And let's not forget that locomotives that have been "stuffed and mounted" and are now on public display should be brought indoors.
This would be a very cost effective step as it would prevent further deterioration and possibly allow for a full restoration at a later date.
Kevin
It almost causes me pain to see something like an old car, locomotive or aircraft sitting outdoors rotting, exposed to the weather. A few years ago there was a fairly nice 280SL Mercedes sitting in a parking lot. I'd stop and look at it and a lady came out of the nearby house and she would say that it wasn't for sale. I said, "please, if it's not for sale at least put it in a garage." She did, finally. Same goes for locomotives sitting in parks, sitting there rotting, being stripped of the gauges or anything made of brass. Old machines that have any sort of historical value should not be left outdoors! One thing my father who was a pilot, said that the worst thing you can do to an airplane is to not fly it. Restore an airplane, fly it! Same with a car or locomotive. Use it, that's what it was made for.
54light15 et.al,
Occasionally I have a chance to attend the meetings of the French Canadian Historical Society here in Michigan. Many of this group can trace their heritage back to the settlers who came with Cadillac and founded the city of Detroit in the 17th Century early America aka New France. They are a primary historical research group.
The Timothy J. Kent family I know, are of the French "Voyageur" tradition whose ancestors routinely paddled birch bark canoes and traded in the American and Canadian wilderness.
Remarkably this family has recently published several books on the "Voyageur" (traveler) tradition of colonial America - after spending 20 or 30 years learning the craft of this form of ancient travel.
You see they took up again the lifestyle of their great great grandparents - built and researched birch bark canoes then developed again the procedure for maintaining them. The spent the last 20 years paddling from Winnipeg, Manitoba to Montreal, Quebec. This journey of many summers took them over 2000 miles by canoe - living in period buckskin clothes - cooking traditional ways with flint and steel lit campfires.
How to patch and repair a birch bark canoes with natural pine gum resin - how to load them for the journey - so as not to damage the canoe. How to beach them - lay them on their side and erect tents over them for sleeping. How to travel in heat storm and rain - all in period costume also.
----------------
Now why would modern people waste their time in this fashion? - because they are people expressing an interest in that part of life and the heritage that they love.
Recently publishing a third book - The rediscovery of the portage by canoe travel across the lower peninsula of Michigan. From Lake Huron, up the Saginaw River, up the Flint River (famous for its water polution) up the Shiawassee River - portage to the Grand River on to the city of Grand Rapids and Lake Michigan.
---------------------
Indeed, why would railfan volunteers go to Chama, New Mexico - or Orbison, Pennslvania - and tear down old wooden boxcars and hopper cars and rebuild them just so a historic steam railroad could pull them for no revenue service over the mountains - to say nothing of steam locomotives - Why indeed?
------------------------
You might be interested to know when my friend researched his book on Birch Bark Canoes he did an extensive study of 8 remaining historic 19th canoes to be found in the world - of which there are very few. Mostly they all have been destroyed - mistreated and wasted by pickers who knew little of the value of such things - including one upstate New York yacht club which had in its possession one of the last original native American war canoes - they burned it not knowing how to care for it - or how to get rid of it.
Yup! turn up the TV and pass the potato chips.
--------------------------
One other of the last remaining such Native American artifacts in the world - a full size war canoe in original condition is to found in of all places - The British Museum in London, England. Who have some appreciation for its anthropological value.
The same country also operating and building major replica historic steam locomotives.
---------------------------
And it would also be nice to see fewer such "Philistines" in America these days.
Doc
There are lots of interesting comments here. I am part of an organization that formed 5 years ago to save our local railroad display in the public park. Briefly, we have restored a caboose (B&O 1939) and have started painting a steam locomotive C&O Kanawa #2776. Our efforts at least prevented the scrapping of entire display which was a serious discussion in our community as it had become such an eyesore.
The reason I mention this is because of all the talk of making locomotives operational again or at least getting them inside a building. For our small organization the idea of erecting something as straight forward as a pole building / shelter house type structure is financially out of sight for us. I have no intention of selling cakes and holding raffles to get it done either.
I find we get lots of advice of what we should try to accomplish yet it is the same half a dozen guys who show up on a Saturday morning willing to actually work.
In closing I must point out that we have had some generous donations from the community and some success with local grants, but nowhere near what it would take to build a structure over the display.
basementdweller I find we get lots of advice of what we should try to accomplish yet it is the same half a dozen guys who show up on a Saturday morning willing to actually work. In closing I must point out that we have had some generous donations from the community and some success with local grants, but nowhere near what it would take to build a structure over the display.
PRECISELY!!!! And so eloquently put, if I may add. If any of you out there are seriously involved with a railroad-related preservation group, you know how accurate the above post is.
Is restoring a steam locomotive to operation wasteful? My answer (and I think the most accurate in any case) is that if it's your [group's] locomotive, you decide the answer. If it's not, then it's not your place to tell someone whether it is or not. There is no such thing as a one-size-fits all statement in this community.
Nothing will piss people off more than the "armchair preservationist" who is in no way affiliated with the project, piping up to lecture people how they should have done, or should do 'xyz' instead.
Just my two cents.
"We’re dreamers and visionaries, but we’re also workers and that’s what will make the difference,” he said. “Sometimes we shake our head and think that we don’t know what we’re doing, but we’ve got the knowledge and the people who can make the difference.” Hence we work on a 104 year old Shay - http://missoulian.com/news/state-and-regional/steam-locomotive-undergoes-restoration-in-libby/article_358dbdb0-ce09-11e1-832b-0019bb2963f4.html
"The Libby community has also rallied around the project, donating money, time and equipment to the effort. Carter said in a town that has seen its fair share of tough times, restoring the train is the type of “inspiring” project Libby needs. He also said that when people see the engine, it’s hard not to be intrigued, which is how he first got involved."
the day the 4014 backs out of the roundhouse,
Hooks up to the 3985 &they back down the track
To pick up a freight,this question we be answered
With a resounding YES!!!! It is worth the time
S. Connor basementdweller I find we get lots of advice of what we should try to accomplish yet it is the same half a dozen guys who show up on a Saturday morning willing to actually work. In closing I must point out that we have had some generous donations from the community and some success with local grants, but nowhere near what it would take to build a structure over the display. PRECISELY!!!! And so eloquently put, if I may add. If any of you out there are seriously involved with a railroad-related preservation group, you know how accurate the above post is. Is restoring a steam locomotive to operation wasteful? My answer (and I think the most accurate in any case) is that if it's your [group's] locomotive, you decide the answer. If it's not, then it's not your place to tell someone whether it is or not. There is no such thing as a one-size-fits all statement in this community. Nothing will piss people off more than the "armchair preservationist" who is in no way affiliated with the project, piping up to lecture people how they should have done, or should do 'xyz' instead. Just my two cents.
Amen to that Brothers! If you want to share your opinion on something then join the group and share it there.
And please do join, there are so many museums and preservation organizations out there who are desperate for volunteers. Anyone who reads these forums and has some free time should buy a membership in their local organization and help out a bit if they can, no previous experience is necesarry in most cases.
You really can make a difference and these groups really need the help, I know mine (the Alberta Railway Museum) does.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
I'm one of the group of people that restored and now maintain the CNJ #113. Not a big main line loce but a gig 0-6-0. Was it worth the time, effort and money. Well seeing the smiling crowd around the station when we returned from our first outing, and hearing their cheers certainly made it worthwhile for me. Over the years of Santa specials, Earter Bunny specials and visiting a town fair I've heard a lot of favorable comments and seen the smiles on the faces of children and adults while viewing the locomotive. Was it cost effective, no. We'll never get our time or money back in the limited runs we do. But, I think everyone has learned new skills and has enjoyed the time they have put in working on the engine. It sits on display when not running but, gathers more interest when hot and running.
Not anymore wasteful than restoring my 1950 chevy or 1938 ford.
To me, this question could be asked about a better safety razor, a faster passenger aircraft, or a newer type of pen. Is it worth it? Well, I guess...if enough people support the enterprise. If people subscribe to the resurrection of N&W 611, and the dollars accumulate commensurately, I guess it was 'worth it'. At what other/better conclusion should one arrive? What other criterion ought one to use in making the decision? If Gillete spends $20M on the development and production of a 10-bladed razor called Proton, and if they net $50M in sales over the next six years, could that charitably be called "worth it?"
I've been involved with restoring old cars since about 1971. No one I've ever heard of restores a car and does not drive it. Admittedly, some are only driven on and off trailers at shows, but they are driven. I imagine a lot of you have heard of the Bloomington, Indiana Corvette show? To win 100 points, the car must look as if it just rolled off the assembly line and not yet started. There will be stenciled marks on the firewall for paint, trim and body (these are whitewashed letters: P,T,B) and various chalk marks on the engine that the customer does not see as they are usually cleaned up at the receiving dealer and the judges will deduct points if those marks aren't there.
The judges look for one bolt on the exhaust manifold; this bolt holds the dipstick tube in place. When the engine is painted on the assembly line, the tube has not been installed yet. There is a certain amount of overspray on all of the exhaust manifold bolts all going in a certain direction. The overspray on that one bolt has to be opposite all of the others. If not, no 100 pont car award for you. All of the judges have 100 point cars.
I was at a Camaro show in Ohio years ago, here again all the judges had 100 point cars. One guy was having his car judged and it was found that the passenger door lock plunger did not rise the exact distance when the door was unlocked. The look on the owner's face was sad to behold! Obsessive? Yes, I think so but understandable. Some people just have to have a perfect car. But the cars are driven, otherwise what's the point?
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.