Found out today that a movement for the restoration of the semi-streamlined 4-8-4 "Dixie" railroad #576 has been started. The "Nashville Steam Preservation Society" announced that they will attempt to obain #576 from the city for a restoration to operation. This follows a failed attempt in 2001.
http://www.nashvillesteam.org/
#576 is a very small northern, it had to fit on the railroad's 90' turntables. Aparrently in one test run, 576's sister ran at 110 mph.
http://rgusrail.com/tnnc576.html
(Photo from rgusrail.com)
This could go through with big names that are on board (among them TRAINS' very own Jim Wrinn) as well as rails and passanger cars lined up if the 576 gets the financial backing it needs for restoration.
S. Connor,
While I don't know any songs about the "DIXIE FLYER" of NC&StL, every time I look at the little DIXIE LINE 4-8-4 northern NC&StL 576 - I hear that railroad L&N ballad by Hank Snow....................
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THE PAN AMERICAN
"I have heard your songs about your fast trains - But now I'll tell you 'bout the one all the southern folks have seen - She's the beauty of the southland, listen to that whistle scream - Your on that Pan American on her way New Orleans!
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She leaves Cincinnati headin' down that DIXIE LINE - When she passes the Nashville tower you can hear that whistle whine - Stick your head right out of the window and feel that southern breeze - your on that Pan American on her way to New Orleans!
Ohio and Kentucky, Tennessee and Alabam, the delta state of Mississippi, she's Louisiana Bound, of the trains in the southland this one is the queen, all the way from Cincinnati down to New Orleans.
If your ever in the southland and want to see the scenes - Just get yourself a ticket on the Pan American Queen - Louisville, Nashville, Montgomery the cap'tal of Alabam - You pass right through them all when your New Orleans bound.
She leaves Cincinnati headin' down that DIXIE LINE - When she passes that Nashville tower you can hear that whistle whine - Stick your head out of the window and feel that southern breeze - your on that Pan American on her way to New Orleans."
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..........................Old Hank Snow was born in Nova Scotia, Canada - but I think he sang his way into the heart of American and on the way became a true American! For cry'n out loud he introduced Elvis Presley on the Grand Old Opery for the very first time and had the same lousy record contract which the Colonel handed off to RCA that Elvis did.
Doc
As long as there's people who love it and places to run it steam will never die.
It just keeps getting better and better.
And she a sharp looking steamer, god speed over restoration.
ROBERT WILLISON And she a sharp looking steamer, god speed over restoration.
According to the TRAINS Newswire of this date...The Nashville City Council is putting off the decision to restore the NC&StL 4-8-4 #576 in THEIR park...
Any Nashville locals have any information on what it is the Pols in Nashville are wanting?
samfp1943Any Nashville locals have any information on what it is the Pols in Nashville are wanting?
When I was involved with this question a few years ago, before the shed was built, the answer was four million dollars in the bank. That would ensure that no matter what sort of 1361esque follies might occur in the restoration, or how far away from Nashville the engine might be stranded by an operator's failure, or no matter what legal cost might result from a deadly wreck during operation, the engine would be restored at least to full present cosmetic condition and returned to its place of display (then in Centennial Park, perhaps now somewhere different).
Personally, I saw this (and still see it) as an eminently practical civic government opinion...
[I think, much as I love the 576, which is a modern Alco design at vest-pocket size, I'd be more interested to see the effect of $4M ... or whatever lesser amount the mayor might consider; ISTR $2M discussed at one time ... in Elkhart.]
The situation for park engines is certaily varied -
Some park display steam engines are possessed by local groups or bureaucrats like they were - personal property. At least until it comes to putting any substancial money in them - then they are a political burden. Like Grand Trunk Western GTW 5632 Pacific on display in Durand, MI. Or the Chesapeake & Ohio Railroad C&0 2700 Kanawaha 2-8-4 sitting at the station in Dennison, Ohio - both railroad towns.
Some are targets for vandals and scrappers that steal every part not welded on. Like when Buffalo, NY scrapped the totally vandalized C&0 2701 the other Chessie Kanawha 2-8-4.
Some are given away with the greatest haste to anyone regardless of the future that might transpire for them. Consider the great fight over the gigantic Santa Fe 3460 class "super hudson" 4-6-4 in Topeka, Kansas.
Some are lost among the weeds and shrubs with time. The Maine logging locomotives rusting to absolute junk in the woods - with collector groups claiming their remains. Or whatever is left the last New York Central 0-6-0 switch engine in northern Indiana.
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Few city governments understand that the only way to assure the continued existance of these remaining park display locomotives is to put LABOR into them - and the MORE labor the better! IF this can be accomplished by RUNNING them then so much the better. Because the only way for a steam locomotive to survive is by INFUSION OF MONEY - and the "fan trip operation" is the way to get the MONEY spent on them.
Why - because of the nature of the all steel construction of - the boiler shells and - the complex internal firebox with its machined "stays" - which functions as a heat engine whose integrity is entirely destroyed by rust. Also the engines - drive wheels, rods, and cylinders also SUFFER after time and neglect - AND require extensive disassembly and machine shop service.
THIRD - the collectable accessories, BRASS GAUGES, WHISTLE, BELL, ETC of park locomotives are often stolen for scrap or for sale to collectors and are difficult IF IMPOSSIBLE to replace.
The fan trip community however well intended is often WRONG in the approach it uses for potential restoration projects. That, "You have got to let us have that locomotive bcause its famous and we want to see it smoke and hear it toot!" to quote Elkhart, Indiana mayor Dick Moore.
Wrong in the sense that the approach instead should be - "It's gettin RUINED just sitting there in that park!" A locomotive needs to be RUN - or it will eventually need more and more expensive repair and eventually becoming only historic junk!
YOU - "Mr. Mayor and City Council - And you will be responsible through neglect for this rotting locomotive here in town - until its and eyesore and a public safety concern!
Yes they really need to be extremely grateful for preservation thru operation groups that want to preserve locomotives. It is a fact that most cities don't know what they are ever going to really do with their park engines.
Think of the last surviving New York Central passenger engine NYC 3002 sitting outside with its boiler cover entirely removed sitting in the rain. They paint the outside, but what about the inside - check those firebox stay caps! Rusting internally to scrap!
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PARK ENGINES - SAVE THEM - Restore them to OPERATION if you can - for the sake of PRESERVATION! Yes,"On the road for a while!" - is a cost but at least they are being USED as they were designed to be USED - for actual WORK - accomplishing something constructive for the people and the peoples memory of THE GREATNESS OF AMERICA - They can be used again for what they were built for - TRANSPORTATION.
Restoration and fan trip operators - the professional business approach is the logical one - maybe the local town needs to be considered in the overall public relations aspect. Is the locomotive a favoite town pet? on display? - a beautifully RESTORED LOCOMOTIVE would be even more celebrated. Restoration operators remember an adopted locomotive needs to spend some time "VISITING ITS HOME" not just out on the road - to give the local community its part of the celebration and some of the public relations fruitage.
The local mayor - the local town folk - the caretakers - NEED TO BE COURTED, for the fame and also for the money and the attention that operation and restoration brings. They need to be included in the package of VIP perks and get in on the fun of cab rides, dignitary visits and the selling of the souviners, or the making of speaches. Consulted in some politically correct fashion for the greater good if not GREATER public relations such civic events can spawn.
THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON A LOCAL COMMUNITY SHOULD NOT BE ENTIRELY DELIGHTED TO HAVE THE MONEY, TIME AND ATTENTION SPENT ON THE OPERATION AND RESTORATION OF ITS VERY OWN PARK LOCOMOTIVE - thru a legitimate business presentation - or simply to get the town park maintaince burden off their back.
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Its the railfan getting grabby, possessive, and juvenile, and the rail fan preference for machinery over people skills or lack there-of that scares off the approval of most projects. Half rebuilt locomotives and failed restoration attempts and damage all future efforts.
The careful, public relations, financial and mechanical preparation of the project are the key components along with good internal group control and discipline.
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It is my opinion that, every potential steam restoration group needs to start off with superior inter personal skills before it acquires the required mechanical and financial strength.
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Hopefully Dixie 576 will move out from under its shed into the limelight to run again - TO CELEBRATE THE SOUTH - and preserve it, even if only for a little while!
The steam community needs to realize that the pool of money and the pool of skilled talent required to rebuild AND properly maintain a steam locomotive is slowly getting smaller. Most, if not all, park locomotives could use a decent cosmetic restoration but cannot be restored to operating condition without a very large influx of money and a lot of schmoozing with the powers that be. I'm sure that NYC 3002 is very low on the list of priorities for the mayor and city council of Elkhart, who have better places to spend the city's money and the same probably applies to a lot of other park locomotives.
Dr D Wrong in the sense that the approach instead should be - "It's getting RUINED just sitting there in that park!" A locomotive needs to be RUN - or it will eventually need more and more expensive repair and eventually becoming only historic junk!
I think -- regretfully -- that I disagree with this.
A steam locomotive requires extensive, and ongoing, maintenance if it is to be safely 'run', and complacency or compromise can have extremely rapid and serious consequences, perhaps more so than in any other historic exercise not involving high-speed flight. If you thought boating was standing under a cold shower lighting thousand-dollar bills, operating big steam is running the thousands by the brick through the stoker worm. (Unless you have tight control over all aspects of the operation and have good volunteer labor and pro bono sources; even then there are costs not adequately amenable to control...) I think Doc, more than most people here, understands precisely what is involved with restoration and running, so I am not 'picking' on him. But once you start actually doing something with your restored vehicle, there come a wide range of costs and risks that can't be avoided or perhaps even adequately predicted.
By comparison, even the kind of static preservation that pays attention to things like roller bearing condition or dry nitrogen in the boiler waterspaces is orders of magnitude cheaper, and often does not require the number of skilled personnel a restoration to operation does ... or involve contact with people who think they are skilled but are somewhat otherwise, as Steamtown seems to have encountered with the firebox work on 3713 a couple of years ago ... or as much of the '1361 saga' probably contains.
Perhaps the one exception to this (which proves the rule) is the T1 Trust, which doesn't really care how long it takes, or whether the result operates at high speed regularly, etc. so long as the machine itself comes back into existence. We already know that most 'legacy' steam locomotives operated quite capably under their particular circumstances; it's interesting to plan ways to improve their performance, and systematize their maintenance, and operate them most effectively in modern contexts of 'making money' (as for example the 765 group in Fort Wayne does so often and so well). But there needs to be, first, the fire in the belly to operate as a system, then to form and execute an organization that does all the various aspects not only of operation but of what happens when operations fail, and then to provide all the necessary care and oversight to keep the plans of the organization optimized. A running locomotive is almost incidental to those efforts except circumstantially...
RME,
I bow to your insightful thought.
The point remains that of the miniscule 1% of remaining American railroad steam locomotives only a fraction of that group recieve any quality indoor or outdoor storage and treatment.
It is now some 60 years running since most of these steam locomotives were placed on display in parks and museums across the country. Just how long is a steel boilered pressure vessel expected to last or to be of any use kept in these conditions? Yes we are fast approaching the time when these engines MUST be preserved, or restored and USED or consigned to the fate of their many unlucky scrapped sisters. To rust in peace their fireboxes stilled forever.
I grant you that those FAILED LOCOMOTIVE RESTORATION ATTEMPTS are a historic disaster. To try to restore a locomotive and to fail is worse for that locomotive than the park engine fate of "death by rust." WELL MEANING and incompetent efforts at locomotive restoration leave these our favorite steam locomotives disassembled, missing parts and even more vulnerable to the "scrap pile" than if they were left entirely alone.
So we come to that now critical moment - OF SAVING WHAT ARE THE TRUELY HISTORICALLY SIGNIFICANT REMAINING STEAM LOCOMOTIVES THAT SHOULD AND COULD BE SAVED AND USED - RETREIVED AT ALL COST?
Among these truely historic examples then, some real effort at collection, protection and operation should be done. Otherwise what surviving steam railroad locomotive history will be lost forever!
What engines are there that are truely historically significant and should be saved?
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Dr DWhat engines are there that are truely historically significant and should be saved?
The answer to me is: they all are.
The problem is slightly different: in a society where so much is valued in terms of money (or the lack thereof), how will you get the ongoing money to 'save' them, and then keep them from deteriorating, and then care for them? There are ongoing discussions in places like RyPN about how it's impossible to 'save them all', how you allocate funds and determine your mission and 'deaccession' items when necessary.
It's a matter of priorities, and interest, and time. And politics, and all the problems that go with it. Perhaps above all, motivation.
But, going back to the original topic: STABILIZING artifacts against further deterioration is generally much cheaper than RESTORING them, but in many cases this makes them ugly or unenjoyable for museum-goers and the like. Therefore, I tend to favor the idea of cosmetic 'restoration' that spends its time and resources on keeping as much of the 'original fabric' as possible intact, but balances that against the need to have something meaningful for people to view (and enjoy viewing) and to explain the history involved in the right ways - museums, for example, are not just crypts for "historic preservation" in the pack-rat sense.
Now, if you have the time, talent, and access to capital, I'm all for the idea of functional restoration to operation. But as I noted, you better have deep enough pockets to cover any potential disaster without losing control of the engine, and a practical means of assuring that it will not only be 'safe' against seizure or conversion, but will be at least returned to a safe place of display and properly conserved there -- in other words, regular painting, good shelter, moved and lubricated periodically, dry nitrogen feed to the water spaces, dessicants checked and baked when necessary, etc. etc. etc. Volunteers could do this for any significant locomotive -- it just isn't always done, or prioritized, or thought of as important enough when there are so many other money concerns clamoring.
This matter of restoration and historical preservation raises another interesting question -- what if a group wants to restore a steam locomotive to not only operate it but also make improvements to it?
David Wardale in "The Red Devil and other Tales of the Age of Steam" gives oblique mention of this with respect to the C&O 614 when some consideration was given by its owner Ross Rowland to letting Wardale make extensive modifications to improve its power and fuel economy. Wardale reports that one of the operating crew took a negative view of this because of the historical preservation aspect of operating the 614 in closer to its original form (or at least, without its exhaust steam injector or other feedwater heating system).
What of that? What if the UP (as it was once rumored), was going to take their Challenger and put a Kylchap or other high-performance exhaust system on it? Or the T1 Trust wanting to improve upon the Pennsy design by a "conjugated" drive between the two engine sets to cure the slipping problem of the original locomotive? Or the Coalition for Sustainable Rail wanting to modify that AT&SF Hudson?
I guess with the UP steam program, and prior to the Big Boy restoration, these are UP engines that the UP decided to keep around for whatever reason and they get to do what the please with them, including engineering research to decide if there are circumstances (very high oil prices?) where they would like to "bring steam back"? With the T1 Trust, they are building their own locomotive from scratch and if they want to put a pair of rocket engines next to the steam dome to enhance the starting tractive effort, again, it is their show and they can do what the want.
On the other hand, the Coalition for Sustainable Rail is going through a lot of angst about re-restoring the locomotive to its historic condition after conducting their experimental modifications? And do they even have custody of that locomotive or is whoever or whatever municipality had it rusting in a park as a pigeon perch still giving them push back on their plans?
The thing is that no one is talking about putting a Diesel genset in the firebox and attaching traction motors to the driving rods. Such a thing would be a sacrilege for whatever reason someone would do such a thing (make a steam locomotve "operate" without going to the trouble of getting the boiler operational and certified?) Furthermore, and steam locomotive that is operated has to have modernized air brakes, marker lamps, radios, cab signals, where required, and so on. And maybe an MU stand to operate trailing Diesels (that is almost as bad as sticking a genset in the firebox, but "backup" or assisting power may be a condition of operating on a Class I main line)
But what about "hot rodding" a steam locomotive in the way people restore antique cars and then change their look and "tune" the motors to be more powerful? That action makes a travesty of historic preservation and authenticity, but there is a community that is "into" that kind of thing that has been around for at least half a century, and to "hot rod" a "classic car" in a way is a form of preservation of a cultural phenonemon that has been around for a while according the My Little Deuce Coup hit song by the Beach Boys?
I, for one, am interested in the "what might have beens if steam was kept longer" or "what could have been different to keep steam longer" or even "what could be done" to bring steam back in response to an energy-supply Dark Age, which is the announced motivation of Coalition for Sustainable Rail (face it, these are a group of tech-minded steam enthusiasts, and the talk about biofuels is just that so people don't shut them down for running a smoking, polluting steam engine).
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
I for one hope they make it. These were good looking units and the idea of being able to head to Nashville for the weekend and get a steam train ride out of the deal is a compelling one.
Any news on when the city is going to consider making a decision?
1019x Any news on when the city is going to consider making a decision?
The park board voted to make a decision at the next meeting in early June, to have more time to review the proposal, ect.
http://www.nashvillesteam.org/news/
Scroll down to read their update on their proposal to the park board earlier this month. From what they say, it went pretty well.
I am sure that some fellow readers are familiar with similar restoration questions regarding restoration of historic pipe organs. Musst everything be exactly as the original? Should modern technology that makes playing the instrument easier be allowed, like electric comibnation actions, teflon and aluminium instead of wood in the tracker mechanical action? If it is located in a church, or relocated, should tonal additions be permitted to meet the requjrments for (example) more congregational participation and singing? If it is in a concert hall or even in a church, is modifying the pitch from say middle A 436 to middle A 440 to be in tune with a typical symphony orchestra be allowed?
When it comes to steam locomotives for MAIN LINE excrsion service, I would want to agree to any improvement that does not materially alter the appearance of the locomotive, but increases safety, reliabiity, and economy, and such improvemenjts are locically what continiued operation of steam on the railroad that operated the locomotive would have occured.
Steam locomotives operatete primarily in museum and tourist railroads, safety yes, reliability maybe, economy in special cases only.
Best wishes for the 4-8-4 restoration, send me a flyer, I may have a check. While I don't particularly desire to see a T-1 I applaud the effort and want to point that it's their money, a concept which is being eroded in America. What I would put in a plug for is building a state of the art locomotive. Several railroads, notably the B&O, tested and proved things like Giesl ejectors, welded, water tube boilers, rotary cam poppet valves, etc. etc. every time I read the articles on these things l want scream, YES BUT YOU NEVER PUT THEM ALL ON ONE LOCOMOTIVE! That's what I would like to see done. Add lightweight roller bearing rods and whatever recent technology can do. In case anyone thinks I believe it could compete with diesels, sorry, that ship has sailed, but it sure would be pretty.
Well everyone, the parks board votes tommorrow on the approval of the NSPS's plan to restore No. 576. If the vote is "YES" they will move on to the Metro board for approval.
Keep your fingers crossed!
The board voted "YES"!
Now the NSPS moves onto the Metro council for secondary approval.
kgbw49 I for one hope they make it. These were good looking units and the idea of being able to head to Nashville for the weekend and get a steam train ride out of the deal is a compelling one.
Johnny
Some the NC&StL 4-8-4's were either built without the jacket or had it removed and were referred to as "Stripes".
Here is a "Stripe" - unit 585...
A Yellow Jacket - unit 570...
Yellow Jacket pickin' 'em up and layin' 'em down...
Yellow Jacket 570 tender...
Double-headed Stripes...
Stripe ready to tie the varnish to the tank and roll...
Plain vanilla J2 - Yellow Jacket and Stripe predecessor...
wow beautiful locos
thomas81z wow beautiful locos
Another favorite NC&StL type was their own shop built (Nashville) Streamliner with its own streamlined Pacific. It turned memphis to Nashville daily:235(?) miles in 5hours. Morning depatrure at Memphis and return for evening {about 7 ish?}. My dad worked out of Louisville and that train was part of how he got to work and back each week.
Appearantly, the restoration of 576 is a go...
http://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/2016/08/19/nashvilles-centennial-park-train-okd-restoration-operation/88966110/
576 has always been one of those "what was that loco?" questions for me since I saw her in 1982 while sidetripping from the World's Fair. It was only just recently that I found out that this was the old steam loco I remembered being near the Parthenon. Glad to see she got a roof in the the interviening 34 years and even better that she'll soon see something besides a fake Greek building 24 hours a day!
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
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