I've been posting some questions here on the TRAINS blog, hopefully to spur the professional jounalists amongst us (or the truly knowledgeable readers) to pick-up on some stories that never seem to reach an end. Over on the passenger forum are the first two examples.
Here's a steam preservation question. Why does Steamtown never seem to finish restoring a steam engine?
Steamtown USA has been without a serviceable steam engine since 2012, but realistically its been even longer if you count main-line capable power. In the history of the NPS management at Scranton basically three engines have run "regularly" there, a big CPR Pacific, a rugged CN 2-8-2 and the little former Baldwin shop switcher from Philadelphia which I believe is an 0-6-0 (it really doesn't matter to this question). Other engines have visited, including just last weekend the big ex-NKP 2-8-4 #765 and more often the pretty little Blue Mountain and Reading's 4-6-2.
But what of Steamtown's own collection and other engines they at least began to work on? The CPR/CN power was "non-US", but at least they ran for many years. If we can't get a US engine ready how much work is needed to get either/both of these work-horses back on the road?
Steamtown's work to put the ex-Horsewhoe Curve K4 Pacific back into service dragged on for years before the engine was returned inoperable and in pieces to Altoona. The project to restore the Steamtown ex-Boston & Maine 4-6-2 has been "underway" for over 20 years(!). Supposedly a former Reading T1 was going to return to service--or was it 765's sister #759, which powered so many trips in the 1960s and 70s. But nothing is ever finished.
Did the Baldwin shop switcher actually steam as hoped for last weekend? Is this all a matter of (chose one or all or none) lack of funding, extreme bureaucratic obsession with unreasonable work standards, lack of management follow-thru, bad luck that every engine Steamtown sought to restore turned out to be much more decayed than anyone knew?
Is there any plan to address this? Would it help if all of Steamtown's repair/restoration functions were given over to a non-profit? Could such a group get anything done if it had to work to National Park Service rules? Does the NPS actually impose unreasonable burdens, or is that just railfan grousing? Should all Steamtown operating engines be loaned/leased, as is frequently the case on major British preservation lines.
So many questions. No answers--but this has gone on for decades and I think fundamentally undermines the viability of Steamtown as any sort of true national showcase for the steam rail era.
We know the current effort to restore the B&M Pacific was dealt a real blow when CPR insurance demands forced the cancellation of next weekends' NS trips from Scranton to Binghamton, which were intended in part to raise money for this effort. Could the Lackawnna and Wyoming Valley NRHS (which is fund-raising for the project) give any sort of budget estimate to complete the project?
I'm one of the hundreds not able to ride next weekend, but ticketed on the cancelled trips. I would happily still donate the part of my ticket price that would have supported this effort, but need first to know how much and secondly can find no on-line link to make the donation. Obviously I can (and eventually will if needed) just write an old-fashioned check, but this is another example of the incomplete information (void) that seems to forever hang over all things Steamtown.
A good article on the real story of preservation and restoration at Steamtown would be a real service to the railfan community and might actually help. Silence in this case has hardly been golden!
Carl Fowler
President
Rail Travel Adventures
One would think that the NPS could have established some kind of trust fund to refurbish and maintain a servicable fleet of steam locomotives. Even amusement parks can do this without the funding and facilities of steamtown. One has to wonder about its mission statement and management.
So Steam town isn't really steam town after all then is it?
I'm sure all the information on the engines is classified.
Randy Stahl So Steam town isn't really steam town after all then is it? I'm sure all the information on the engines is classified.
and contained on e-mails in a private server?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
RailvtA good article on the real story of preservation and restoration at Steamtown would be a real service to the railfan community and might actually help. Silence in this case has hardly been golden!
You ought to check out the Steamtown Forum Facebook group. Many of your questions have been discussed and answered repeatedly there.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
A good suggestion, but respectfully my point is not that there isn't good rail-oriented discussion and chat out on the web. Rather it is the lack of informed reporting in article form in respected rail media on these subjects.
How do we sort gossip, truth, opinion (my own are perhaps notoriously easy to find here and at NARP) from rumor if we can't expect investigative work by our many very good rail media writers? Alas there is now an overwhelming amount of railfan discussion, but too often what passes for "journalism" is the parroting of Press Releases by non-rail reporters invited to inaugural runs, who usually confuse a caboose with a coach!
The Steamtown Forum indeed contains a recent photo of the torn-down B&M Pacific in the Steamtown shops, noting much work done and more needed. But what/why/when? And the posting corrrectly notes the need for donations, but points to no link. ZAn article might answer these questions in a cogent and central way.
But the more fundamental question remains a challenge to Jim Wrinn or Jim Boyd or other rail editors. What is really going on at Steamtown? Why the apparent statis that dogs so many projects? Why does this seem to just slip away?
More broadly, if we read a report of a project in process--the Lackawanna Cut-Off, the VIEWLINER II order, the situation at Steamtown can we expect the rail media to keep us posted in news form on what is acttually happening--and not just report when a project is finally "done"?
Good points sir, but don't expect too much input from Jim Boyd. The poor man died several years ago and left a BIG hole in the railfan world.
As to other railpublications, I'm guessing they have to walk a fine line or risk having doors slammed in their faces. The only rail editor I know of who doesn't seem to give a damn is Tom Nemeth of "Railpace." He tells it like he sees it, and his New Jersey Transit rants after Hurricane Sandy were priceless.
Wish I'd kept those issues.
Mea Culpa to Jim Boyd's memory! As I get older I get dumber.
Firelock76The only rail editor I know of who doesn't seem to give a damn is Tom Nemeth of "Railpace." He tells it like he sees it, and his New Jersey Transit rants after Hurricane Sandy were priceless.
Good ol' Rumorpace. If anyone took anything that was in that rag seriously, I feel sorry for them.
The Steamtown facebook group does have many postings from some of the rangers there. I don't know if you would get much better info from a railfan magazine. Since most railfans (and railfan magazines) either love or hate Steamtown (mostly the latter) , I doubt you'd get an unbiased piece from any of them. Too many think Gov't = bad, no matter what.
deleted
Railvt Mea Culpa to Jim Boyd's memory! As I get older I get dumber.
I know what you mean, good thing my car knows the way home.
Think about it. The National Park Service was set up to preserve some of Americas most cherished wilderness lands. From Yellowstone Park to Rocky Mountain National Park, to Glacier National Park etc.
Rangers plan their lives to go like the Boy Scouts into the woods and welcome campers. "Yogi Bear" and "Boo Boo" live there. They have the occasional folks who feed the bears and run down "Bambi" with their SUV. These Ranger Folk live eat sleep and breathe wilderness life, hiking boots, backpacks and wilderness trails.
Now I ask you, what do those who "so plan their lives" have in common with a Roundhouse, turntable, coal tower, and water tank?
Do they who revel in the call of the Morning Dove also revel in the shrill of the steam locomotive whistle at grade?
Do they not hear in the back of their minds - "The boss sent me down from the top of Mt. Pisgah to that greasy roundhouse in Pennsylvania! To do time!"
I would tender from "their entire warp to the woof" they are out of their element.
In his ususal setting, Joe Park Ranger welcomes visitors, takes the $10 bucks and says to folks "have a good time. 'Put out your campfires!'"
This same Joe Park Ranger at Steamtown, welcomes visitors, takes the $10 bucks and tells folks "have a good time! Don't step on the rails!'"
He is also willing to proffer the wisdom, "That if they see any Grizzley Bears among the locomotives on display to be sure to "Run Fast!" and then "call him quickly!"
How would railfans equally out of their element feel having to give up chasing after N&W 611! - and be off to monitor the warble of the Red Breasted Thrush! among the Junipers?
Its No wonder!, - Yes, Is it any wonder!?, - that they don't know what to do with an "oil can" let alone a Boston And Maine 4-6-2 Pacific locomotive or for that matter a Pennsy K4!?
Doc
Doctor,
I feel you take a very stereotyped view of a National Park Service Ranger. Not all of them are "backwoodsmen" nor do they "plan their lives" out with the NPS. Yes, there are some that do make careers out of it, but the majorty of Park Rangers are Part-time or Seasonal.
I have a very good friend who is a Park Ranger at Steamtown, and my brother is a Park Ranger at the Jefferson National Expansion Memorial (St. Louis Gateway Arch) They are not all outdoors people. My brother is a historian, my friend is a life-long railfan.
Park Rangers apply to work for a specific job at a specific park, they are not transfered between parks. And not even the stupidist person I know would take an outdoorsman, or a historian, ect. and plant them to work on a steam locomotive, which requires mechanical skills to work on, skills that not everybody has or is willing to learn.
Steamtown has had on average three people working on the little 0-6-0. All of them are qualified and are worth their salt, as my Steamtown ranger friend says. They don't have "Jimbo and Dave from yellowstone" working on this thing.
And to all:
We cannot point fingers and place blame with inaccurate information, or without knowing exactly what is happening finnacially and management-wise at Steamtown. To wit- Ninety-nine percent of us here are not "in" (me included) with Steamtown and do not know what is truly happening, and thus cannot do anything more than speculate on the situation at hand.
The Baldwin is nearly back, and lets not forget there is plenty of static equipment around Steamtown that needs a layer of paint. All of it costs money, stuff that is is not easily spread around these days.
Just my expirience- Truthfuly,
S. Connor
The NPS has been underfunded for years. They have over $11 billion backlog in deferred maintenance. Steam engines probly seem like an extravagance.
http://www.npca.org/protecting-our-parks/park-funding/park-funding.html?referrer=https://www.google.com/
Dr DIts No wonder!, - Yes, Is it any wonder!?, - that they don't know what to do with an "oil can" let alone a Boston And Maine 4-6-2 Pacific locomotive or for that matter a Pennsy K4!?
You do realize that Steamtown was only doing the work on the K4s? That is the Altoona Rail Museum's engine and project (with the help of PA tax dollars). Can't really blame them for that fiasco.
And a couple of the NPS rangers do seem to have a real interest in Steamtown. Amazing what they do with the current shoestring budget and historic apathy this country harbors.
S. Connor,
"If it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck and waddles like a duck -
Its a Duck!"
I too have a second cousin who has spent his lifetime as a National Park Ranger in upper level managment of the National Park Service - from his college degree in 1964 to retirement a few years ago - a lifetime.
I know the infighting of the National Park Service from the unbelievable stories he tells - and know full well that even if the "local talent" who love steam trains is hired as part time help at Steamtown - that the National Park Service managment on every level above this - is in way over their head!
Just look at the trouble Union Pacific Railroad is having with proffering a roster of active steam locomotives, and they are in the professional business of railroading.
This is a heroic Federal Government "Boondoggle" if I have ever seen one! It's our tax dollars at work for every conceivable purpose government should not be into with the National Park Service!
Steamtown as part of the Smithsonian Institute - well maybe!
But what has our United States Federal Bureauracy got to do with historic operating steam trains? - these are the guys famous for the "$600 dollar hammer." Look what they are spending for NASA and space flight.
They got to the moon - landed - yet erased the video records that prove we went there!
Yet a commerical group - SpaceShipOne - built and sent up a fiberglass space rocket that uses old tires for fuel. Piloted by a 60 year old pilot! That cost almost nothing!
The Federal Government can't run AMTRACK intelligently let alone something as complex as a working STEAMTOWN National Park!
Sorry, that's my opinion!
Since the author of the previous post feels that the National Park Service is making a mess out of Steamtown, I would like to hear his proposals for who should operate the museum and what would serve as a funding source. Perhaps the T1 trust should direct their money to that goal, as it would a wider purpose than scratch-building a locomotive.
CSSHEGEWIWCH,
Regarding Steamtown National Park - "Let them run their train around the track!"
Rebuild a disassembled Pennsy K4? - Rebuild a disassembled Boston And Maine 4-6-2? - YAH RIGHT!
Why would I expect Mayor Dick Moore and the City of Elkhart, Indiana to rebuild New York Central 4-8-2 Mohawk 3001?
And how did the State of Pennsylvania Legislature fare with funding and restoring the infamous Pennsy Pacific? We are lucky its not in the scrap yard!
Steamtown - "Let them run their train around the track!"
I just wouldn't expect anything too heroic that all!
1. Most folks in the modern US don't call themselves by a title, whether academic degree or their profession. Why do you? Did you actually earn that? Or just a nick?
2. You seem to have a desire for historic restorations, which is commendable. So why do you feel the need to denigate others who also do? They are preserving the past. Are you?
3. The NPS has been underfunded since Reagan began privatizing parts of it.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I have never seen the mission statement for steam town but suspect its more interpretative that operational, and that is where the spending goes.
I certainly would notnot blame the rangers or even nps, as Dr d has, its our national priorities that set the adgenda.
Even private Enterprise has stumbled with steam. Union Pacific had struggled of recent. Ns dropped out of their own program only to come back as a supported rather than leasing or purchasing their own steam and cars.
Steam operations takes deep pockets, not for the weak of heart.
Hey Zugmann, I enjoy "Rumorpace," uh, "Railpace!" Good photography, well-written articles, all nicely packaged. Since you're a professional I won't argue with you about what's real in there or not as you know far better than I do what happens on the inside.
I do have to say that Tom's Jersey Transit rants after Hurrican Sandy were pretty justified. New York's Metro-North didn't lose any rolling stock, neither did the Long Island Railroad, or the New York subway system. They heeded the storm warnings and moved the equipment out of harm's way. NJT, for reasons known only to those in charge at the time, ignored the warnings and wound up with damaged equipment and many layers of egg on their faces.
Feel sorry for me for reading "Railpace?" That's cool, I'll take all the pity I can get!
ROBERT WILLISONI have never seen the mission statement for steam town but suspect its more interpretative that operational, and that is where the spending goes.
I kinda remember reading something to that effect when they opened. Their goal was to present the railroad experience, focusing on the lives and experiences of those who worked on the railroads.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Paul of Covington I kinda remember reading something to that effect when they opened. Their goal was to present the railroad experience, focusing on the lives and experiences of those who worked on the railroads.
Museum in Altoona does a beautiful job at that. But it suffers from two problems: 1. being in the city of Altoona, which is not exactly a great destination. 2. Too many people just want a giant hall of locomotives to see.
If the Altoona Museum ever folded, I would hope another museum would get their exhibits.
Dr D,How can anyone take your rants seriously if you can't even spell "Amtrak" correctly?
Paul A. Cutler III
Amtrack - now Amtrak! - Satisfied
Won't make the National Park Service any better are restoring steam power!
ROBERT WILLISON I have never seen the mission statement for steam town but suspect its more interpretative that operational, and that is where the spending goes. ...
...
I could not find a mision statement specifically for Steamtown at their site, but I did find one for the NPS. The pertinent words relative to this discussion were "education" and "cultural resource conservation". They preserved the old Lackawana roundhouse and other buildings, and the former private Steamtown collection of equipment. And as you say, interpretation seems to be their main activity. This isn't suprising, given their lack of funds. When the Washington Monument was damaged by earthquake 4 years ago, half of the $15 million repair costs were covered by taxpayers, and half by an investment billionaire. If such an iconic national monument had to be rescued by private money, what does everyone think it will take to get a steam loco rebuilt?
Dr D Amtrack - now Amtrak! - Satisfied Won't make the National Park Service any better are restoring steam power! Doc
Steamtown is a LOT more than steam locomotive restoration.
CSSHEGEWISCHSteamtown is a LOT more than steam locomotive restoration.
That is very true, but the focus of the present discussion (which started as a request for investigative journalism on the specific subject of Steamtown's steam-locomotive restoration services) only involves that specific aspect (and, perhaps, how the NPS and its politics may have affected that.)
I have been assured that the situation with restoration of 3713 has been turned around and that progress will be much more direct now. I also understand that a 'friends' organization has been incorporated and is proceeding with all deliberate speed toward becoming effective as a liaison between NPS and the steam enthusiast community, specifically including the large number of both working and retired experts in large-locomotive technology. I don't think there is a point rehashing some of the 'past history' with the 3713 restoration details now that it is straightening up and flying right. Yes, there will be consequences of being involved with Government money and priorities; those go hand in hand with access to the Federal 'opportunities'. (Look for the new executive order on unpaid sick days to have an impact now, for example). Some of the requirements seem like Mickey Mouse distractions; indeed, some of them are. A good crew plans for this and incorporates what's needful into the planning. (A crew that is otherwise gets distracted into implementing quality processes while failing to pay attention to historical knowledge or empirical wisdom -- but that is surely reserved for Mr. Fowler's 'Where are the Stories, part four', isn't it?)
Likewise, while the 1361 saga was like not one way, but a whole soap opera of ways not to arrange something critical involving large amounts of public money, the current proceeding restoration is on a sound footing and progressing reasonably. It would make interesting reading to see all the dirty laundry -- but not establish anything that would serve as a 'good predictor' of what happens to 1361 now (especially when railfans without restoration experience start criticizing the current effort as if it were tarred with past failure).
MidlandMike ROBERT WILLISON I have never seen the mission statement for steam town but suspect its more interpretative that operational, and that is where the spending goes. ... I could not find a mision statement specifically for Steamtown at their site, but I did find one for the NPS. The pertinent words relative to this discussion were "education" and "cultural resource conservation". They preserved the old Lackawana roundhouse and other buildings, and the former private Steamtown collection of equipment. And as you say, interpretation seems to be their main activity. This isn't suprising, given their lack of funds. When the Washington Monument was damaged by earthquake 4 years ago, half of the $15 million repair costs were covered by taxpayers, and half by an investment billionaire. If such an iconic national monument had to be rescued by private money, what does everyone think it will take to get a steam loco rebuilt?
Forgive me if I add some emphasis to parts of Midland Mike's statement. I think he is 'spot on' with his impressions. As 'taxpaying citizens' we all seem to have been 'conditioned' to think that Government has all the answers to solving all our problems; not only in society but with preserving our history.
WE tend to forget that Government is made up with with employees who are both committed, and those that possibly, should be committed. Politicians tend to throw 'grease' at their squeeking wheels, reactively, rather than proactively. It is those interests of their constituancies that draw their concerns and attention.
Steamtown is quite a place to visit for those of us in the railfan community: I would ask how many have actually,physically, been there and visited ? Our "community" supports all kinds of activities, virtually all over this Country. Private museums and collections, as well as any number of public operations {VMT Roanoke & NS's own 21st Century Steam tours, and of course UPRR's Heritage Operations; to note some of the more 'public operations'.)
My point is that even with operations such as Steamtown, and its Federally involved governemt support; It is still not what many want to see. In order to be successful, there has to be a level of non governmental support for the enterprise. Never forget that every project will rise or fall with the level of money in the supporting bank account. And to note further: "...When a government employee goes to work on their first day; they 'clock-in' with the though that they have twent years to finish that day's work. When a civilian employee does the same; their thought is that they have eight hours to finish that day's work."
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