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Three cylinder steam engines

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Posted by timz on Tuesday, September 8, 2015 12:20 PM

M636C
The D&RG Mountains had the same valve gear as 60000

The DRGW 4-8-2s had two ecc cranks and rods on the right side-- BLW 60000 had one set

http://digitalcollections.smu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/rwy/id/634

http://www.cwrr.com/Lounge/Reference/baldwin/fig13.gif

 

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, September 8, 2015 12:23 PM

pajrr

Shop men from Baldwin actually changed out the bearings on the 60,000 at the museum years ago. As you stated, the limited movement made the original bearings egg-shaped. I don't know if they have been changed again, but I do know that they have been changed out at least once due to the wear and tear of "museum service".

That must have been quite a few years ago, no later than 1970 or so (If I remember correctly Baldwin closed its doors in 1972).

When did the 60000 go on display and start rolling? Her bearings are likely going or have gone bad again.

 

-S. Connor

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Posted by MrATSF on Tuesday, September 8, 2015 8:10 PM

I'm surprised nothing has been said about the seven 3-cylinder 4-6-2s rostered by the Mexican Railway (FCM) which lasted in service until the early 1960s. They were wonderful to see and to listen to in regular passenger service. Before the FCM was absorbed by the NdeM these engines were well maintained and proudly cared for by their engine crews. They were assigned to daily passenger trains between Mexico City and Esperanza, with tight schedules requiring speeds of up to 100kph. I was privileged to two cab rides in 1960 on these beauties. The first four, numbers 130 through 133 were built as simple three cylinder engines with Gresley gear by Alco-Schenectady in 1928. Three more, 134 thriough 136 were built in 1938 by Montreal Locomotive Works to the same specs. Unfortunately, NdeM, while still heavy in steam in the early 1960s, they shoved the FCM Pacifics off to local freight service to run out their service life before scrapping them.

S. Kistler

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Posted by M636C on Tuesday, September 8, 2015 11:51 PM
timz wrote the following post 11 hours ago:
 
M636C
The D&RG Mountains had the same valve gear as 60000

 

The DRGW 4-8-2s had two ecc cranks and rods on the right side-- BLW 60000 had one set

 

http://digitalcollections.smu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/rwy/id/634

http://www.cwrr.com/Lounge/Reference/baldwin/fig13.gif

See what happens when you rely on memory. I haven't been to Philadelphia in more than twenty years.....

I'd never seen that drawing, of course... I've got copies of the photo of 60000 but never checked them closely. Enlarging that at the link to 100% is quite helpful.

60000 has three valve gears, but two of them are driven from the same eccentic crank.

Does that mean that the HP cylinder was 180 degrees ahead of the right hand LP cylinder, and the left cylinder 90 degrees behind that?

60000 has no conjugating gear, since the centre cylinder's valve has no connection to the left valve gear, only the right valve gear...

The link and crank visible on the right side of the locomotive look very similar to the drive for the Henschel conjugating gear, so the drawing is very important in showing what is actually there...  The rocking shaft is a bit too far forward for the Henschel conjugating gear to fit there anyway....

Note that there are separate lifting links for the right and centre valve gears, suggesting that the cut off might be varied separately for the high and low pressure cylinders, although how this might be done isn't clear to me...

M636C

 

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Posted by Wizlish on Wednesday, September 9, 2015 3:31 AM

M636C
Note that there are separate lifting links for the right and centre valve gears, suggesting that the cut off might be varied separately for the high and low pressure cylinders, although how this might be done isn't clear to me...

I would expect that a Smith compound setup like the one on 60000 would need separate HP cutoff, if for no other reason than the fixed expansion ratio will not be ideal.  This would be best addressed  by trimming cutoff and throttle opening on the HP vs. cutoff on the LP to best use the available 'exhaust'.  I would suspect that a four-cylinder de Glehn-du Bousquet would have its HP and LP cutoff manipulated in analogous fashion.

I do not know how the control was arranged on 60000; perhaps Mike (wanswheel) can find something definitive.  My naive idea would be to have a 'trim' control on the center cylinder that would allow it to be adjusted separately from the LP cylinders, but then have all the gears worked running by the same power reverse.  Fortunately the engine still exists and someone doing research could at least in theory gain full access to the cab and running gear, and watch the result of adjusting the controls that are there, with HR video running to observe the valve spindle motion outside and inside, to see how the trick is done. 

Who's going to Philadelphia next?

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Posted by flare40x on Wednesday, September 9, 2015 9:51 AM

Several French compound 3- and 4-cylinder designs also drove the lead driving axle, including a class of PLM 4-8-2's built in the 1920's and early 1930's.

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Posted by timz on Wednesday, September 9, 2015 12:20 PM

M636C
Does that mean that the [BLW 60000's] HP cylinder was 180 degrees ahead of the right hand LP cylinder, and the left cylinder 90 degrees behind that?

The outside cylinders were 90 deg to each other-- the center cyl was 135 deg, plus or minus its inclination.

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Posted by cefinkjr on Wednesday, September 9, 2015 3:29 PM

S. Connor
This is probably more than you wanted to know

Not at all.  Good post.  Bow

(Now come the nit pickers.)

Chuck
Allen, TX

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Posted by M636C on Thursday, September 10, 2015 11:41 PM
timz wrote the following post yesterday:
 
M636C
Does that mean that the [BLW 60000's] HP cylinder was 180 degrees ahead of the right hand LP cylinder, and the left cylinder 90 degrees behind that?

 

The outside cylinders were 90 deg to each other-- the center cyl was 135 deg, plus or minus its inclination.

 
That is what I would have expected, since that is the standard arrangement for Smith Compounds, including the 240 Midland and LMS locomotives. What I can't work out is how the single RH eccentric provided drive to a valve for a cylinder 135 degrees from that which it also provided the valve motion....
 
Is there something not seen in the drawing you kindly provided?
 
M636C
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Posted by pajrr on Friday, September 11, 2015 8:07 AM

The Franklin Institute acquired Baldwin 60,000 in 1932

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Posted by timz on Friday, September 11, 2015 2:17 PM

Never have tried to figure out BLW 60000's valve gear-- try

http://cwrr.com/Lounge/Reference/baldwin/baldwin.html

There's a side view drawing, which you'll have a hard time deciphering. Maybe the text will explain.

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Posted by HARVEY GEORGE on Monday, September 14, 2015 7:49 PM

I had experience with Baldwin built 4-6-2s in Thailand in the '70s when they were in service.  Originally they were used on the premier passenger trains.  By the time I saw them they were working local service due to the introduction of newer engines.  They had equal size cylinders with the steam chest to the left of the middle cylinder.  There were two sets of Walschearts motion on the left side.  The chug was heard in a synchopated beat.  They must have been successful because all other locomotives purchased about the same time were long retired.

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Posted by M636C on Tuesday, September 15, 2015 12:08 AM

21. Walschaerts valve gear is used, with an independent motion for each cylinder, but all controlled by one type B Ragonnet power reverse gear. The valve for the left-hand cylinder is operated from the left-hand main pin and crosshead in the usual way. The right-hand valve receives its lead from the right-hand cross-head, but the link for this cylinder is operated through a transverse shaft, by means of a connection to the left-hand crosshead. The return crank on the right-hand main pin is set to operate the valve for the inside cylinder, and this valve is given lead through a connection with the inside crosshead. The arrangement of the links, arms and rockers through which these connections are made, is shown in the accompanying drawings. The valve motion bearer is a single steel casting supporting practically the entire valve gear.

Reading this in conjunction with the side view of the valve gear Fig 13a at the link Timz provided above:

So my interpretation is:

 
The left side is straight Walschaerts.
The right side is basically Young gear as used on the UP 7000 4-8-2s driven by the LH crosshead.
The middle is Walschaerts driven from the RH crosshead
 
That might not be strictly correct but it has made my entire week - Many Thanks
 
M636C
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Posted by daveryan on Tuesday, September 15, 2015 2:42 AM

ACY

The center cylinder is cranked to a driving axle, with the connection located between the frame members.  It is angled in order to provide clearance.  There were simple, as well as compound versions of this arrangement, but the compounds generally proved impractical in North American use.  All survivors in this country are simple engines, as far as I know.   

Surviving examples include Alton & Southern 0-8-0 no. 12 in Kirkwood, MO; Baldwin 4-10-2 no. 60,000 in Philadelphia; Southern Pacific 4-10-2 5021 in Pomona, CA; and Union Pacific 4-12-2 9000, also in Pomona. 

 

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Posted by M636C on Tuesday, September 15, 2015 8:38 PM
Wizlish wrote the following post 6 days ago:

I do not know how the control was arranged on 60000; perhaps Mike (wanswheel) can find something definitive.  My naive idea would be to have a 'trim' control on the center cylinder that would allow it to be adjusted separately from the LP cylinders, but then have all the gears worked running by the same power reverse.  Fortunately the engine still exists and someone doing research could at least in theory gain full access to the cab and running gear, and watch the result of adjusting the controls that are there, with HR video running to observe the valve spindle motion outside and inside, to see how the trick is done. 

While I'm not sure how they do it, the test results in the data at Timz' excellent link show a fixed relationship between cutoff of the HP and LP cylinders.
 
60000 started with the cutoff at 80/50 (80% on the HP, 50% on the LP) and this varied downward with the fixed difference of 30% between HP and LP except below 50% on the HP it fell to 40/20, so 20% difference.
 
How this fixed ratio was arranged between the gears isn't clear (to me anyway) but it was acheived with a single power reverse.
 
M636C

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