Are ships alive? The crew makes them alive. I was aboard the U.S.S. Grand Canyon, a repair ship shortly before it was sunk as a target and it was stripped of all furniture, lockers and most fittings. We were free to take away anything we could use on our ship but there wasn't much left. It was like walking around a big steel box. I couldn't really even call it a ship anymore, just a big pile of steel.
samfp1943: The SS United States is in Philadelphia. Although, you can buy a Turkey in Reading Terminal market, Philly is still in the US!
Hi Juniatha! You're back, and just in time! The way this thread's going it needs the input of an old sea dog, whoops, excuse me, CAT, like yourself.
I remember being on a cruise in the Marines and holding the railing on the flying bridge. I could feel a vibration like a heartbeat running though it and remarked on it to a friend of mine who was ex-navy ROTC. "Sure the ships alive" he said. "Ask the skipper if his ship's alive, he'll tell you!"
Hate to hear about the Liner 'United States'. My family moved to Milton, Mass in 1955 and my neighbor across the street had been an Engineer on the Construction of the liner United States, his contribution was the wing devices on the stacks of the ship. His picture collection was a marvel for a young kid and his stories were terrific. I guess the 'breakers' in Turkey will make short work of her, probably still full of asbestos, in her engineering spaces?
The USS Constitution is the oldest active Navy ship on duty. She's moored in Boston Harbor. Every year they generally 'turn her' ( keeps the sun damage even). My Dad, being an active Reserve naval Officer at the time, wangled us a ride, on her yearly turning exercise. I wish that I still had tose picturees. That was quite an experience.
Juniatha, indeed, boiler explosions were not rare in young Sam Clemens' day. Perhaps the only reason that he mentioned the Pennsylvania's explosion was that his younger brother died after he went back and tried to save people, and was damaged because he went back.
Johnny
Not really my focus as it comes to ships - Ocean Liners nor river steam boats . I’m more with the sailing Clippers , the final types of merchandise sailing ships that once were on around-the-world trips ..
Yet --
It's a long time I've read Mark Twain's 'Life on the Mississippi' - his becoming a pilot on steam boats when the river was still wild and flooding , changing and revamping bed as nature had it . I don't recall his making boiler explosions a big issue - does that mean they had been *that* ordinary ? On the other hand , if I read in this-here thread of 2900 lives lost , that's the dimension of lives lost in 9/11 – and that on a population rather between 1 to 5 % that in 2001 - if incidents even causing loss of 290 hadn't been sort of a big enough bang to wake them up I wonder ..
A forlorn SS United States in Istanbul , Turkey , proposed to be re'built' ( re-tampered , rather ) by a Turkish (!?) 'ship [back]yard - O-M-G , (gasp , gulp & recover) I didn't know we've gotten *that* low ! Just the idea of it makes me vomit ! If this ( once ? ) proud nation in fact turns out to neither have heart nor means to re-build just *one* single symbol ship they had once been able to build new without much fuss , then what does that tell you about our actual condition and power ?
If it should be found to be beyond national budged and determination to keep up that ship once rightly given the name of the United States , complete and sound in a stately (sic!) condition then by all means let her die in dignity – and for an ocean travelling vessel that can only mean to sink below the waves way out there as vessels have always gone down to their dark and cold graves – like the Pamir in 1957 sought the storm and laid on her side to take in the waters ...
That said -
all the best to you folks in 2015
Juniatha
When I was stationed in Norfolk with the Navy between 1974 and 1979, I used to see the United States every day. At the time maintenance was being done and it was kept painted. There would occasionally be articles in the Sunday newspaper or on televison about rumours that the ship would be reactivated. Hampton Roads was the ships actual base and retiring the ship in 1969 meant the loss of 20,000 jobs, both crew and local support staff. There's plenty of websites about her with lots of hope and good wishes and while I would like her to be reactivated, I'm not getting my hopes up. A damned shame.
I recall seeing the S.S. America when my ship was in Port Everglades in Florida in 1975, she was painted gray and was called the "Australis" if memory serves. My ship (U.S.S. Guam, LPH-9) made the local TV station. The deck crew was painting the ship. It was raining!
"The sea that loved her, claimed her."
Reminds me of the great British battleship HMS Warspite, which broke a towline and threw herself on the rocks at Prussia Cove near Lands End rather than go to the scrappers.
Makes you wonder, it really makes you wonder.
The fate of the SS United States, which was a Navy ship in some capacity, reminds me of the fate of the sailing frigate USS Consitution. This national treasure was almost scrapped several times and exists today almost in spite of the concern of the US Navy.
Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendel Holmes in his youth penned the famous poem which his father had published. This so enflamed the sentiment of the nation that the ship was saved.
"Aye tear her tattered ensign down, long has it waved on high!
And many and eye has danced to see that banner in the sky!
Beneath it hung the battle shout, and burst the cannons roar -
the meteor of the ocean air shall sweep the clouds no more.
OH better that her shattered hulk should sink beneath the wave!
Her thunders shook the mighty deep and there should be her grave!
Nail to the mast her holy flag and set every thread bear sail -
and give her the god of storms! - the lightening and the gale!"
After seeing the fate of the SS France and Queen Mary, I would think that the SS America had a better fate. The sea that loved her - claimed her! Scrappers be damned!
Dr. D
Her interior wasn't being kept in much better shape...
The damage wasn't portrayed as severe at the time, with the boiler deemed repairable and with parts on hand to effect repairs (From her forward four boilers which were never used after her first career ended, which had been dismantled and removed since she obviously didn't need the speed of a trans-Atlantic liner just to take people on a pleasure cruise).
Instead, it seems that she had already fallen out of favor and that this merely served to accelerate retirement plans. It's also why I think virtually everyone knew that they weren't serious about the Independence and the United States when they purchased them.
Right on topic, the SS France aka Norway had a boiler explosion in Florida I believe just before whe was to sail on a cruise. The damage was extensive and resulted in her scraping. Looks like they were really taking care of those boilers - wonder if they were even using the majority of them. I believe there was some personal injury as a result. The explosion of the boiler was captured on video and ran on u-tube for a while! Sudden plume of smoke and steam shooting out the funnel!
WizlishI thought CSSHEGEWISCH was saying the high asbestos in the machine spaces on United States was an ongoing deterrent against her future scrapping.
That is what he said, and he's correct if it's going to be scrapped here in the United States or Canada, if the vessel is full of it (As she was at one time with supposedly more asbestos onboard than any other vessel ever had).
That's why the United States when it sells something like a WWII T-2 tanker for scrap (A class that sadly has recently went extinct, despite being even more important to winning the war than the famous Liberties), actually pays the scrapper. There wouldn't be any money to be made without that subsidy.
The SS United States without that abatement work would be cost prohibitive for private enterprise to acquire and scrap in the Western world.
So unless the government was willing to step in and spend a fortune, disposal either means overseas scrapping in a 3rd world country or scuttling in deep water (For some reason for a vessel meant to be a dive attraction, asbestos abatement work must be done despite it not posing any sort of a hazard underwater).
WizlishHas the asbestos issue throughout the ship been fully 'abated', and not just in the public spaces that were going to be repurposed for real-estate development?
The work being done over there was with an eye towards repurposing her as a cruise ship like how the SS France served as the SS Norway in later years, before suddenly she was deemed a liability much to most everyone's surprise and scrapped a few years ago.
So I assumed that her engineering spaces, at least the portion of them that would've been reactivated, would've been cleared of the problem.
But sadly after a quick check just now to be more certain, it doesn't appear so.
http://maritimematters.com/2013/02/s-s-united-states-the-turkish-years-1992-1996-what-might-have-been/
Probably just wasn't an issue for an active vessel (Or in this case, one planned for reactivation) since you can still find plenty of this material in the engine rooms of active steamships. Unless it has failed and is starting to break down, it's simply not a problem as long as it's left intact.
But likely for tours as a dockside attraction, it will now be problematic to open up some of these areas to the public. At least her interior seems to be largely clear, although obviously at a cost.
But she was always a bit on the plain side inside, due to taking fire prevention to an extreme. So hopefully it won't be an issue that her original interiors are now gone.
Leo_AmesBut it simply doesn't apply here since what went on in Turkey when her interiors were stripped was abestes abatement. That work is already done and is perhaps, next to her history, her greatest asset today. The expensive gutting has already been done.
Sorry, I misunderstood completely. I thought CSSHEGEWISCH was saying the high asbestos in the machine spaces on United States was an ongoing deterrent against her future scrapping.
Has the asbestos issue throughout the ship been fully 'abated', and not just in the public spaces that were going to be repurposed for real-estate development?
Wizlish CSSHEGEWISCH The main reason that the SS United States has not already been turned into razor blades is asbestos abatement. It's fairly well known that the liner was built with an outsized power plant for possible use as a troopship. This, in turn, meant that lots of asbestos was used as insulation for boilers, steam lines, etc. Needless to say, the expense of safely removing and disposing of the asbestos has made scrapping it a very expensive proposition. Is it really true that the yards at Aliaga, or Alang, or Chittagong, where the ship would almost certainly be sent for scrapping, care about asbestos?
CSSHEGEWISCH The main reason that the SS United States has not already been turned into razor blades is asbestos abatement. It's fairly well known that the liner was built with an outsized power plant for possible use as a troopship. This, in turn, meant that lots of asbestos was used as insulation for boilers, steam lines, etc. Needless to say, the expense of safely removing and disposing of the asbestos has made scrapping it a very expensive proposition.
Is it really true that the yards at Aliaga, or Alang, or Chittagong, where the ship would almost certainly be sent for scrapping, care about asbestos?
As you seem well aware of, they don't.
Lax environmental laws are half the equation for why most ship demolition occurs in such regions. The second, of course, is cheap labor.
But it simply doesn't apply here since what went on in Turkey when her interiors were stripped was abestes abatement. That work is already done and is perhaps, next to her history, her greatest asset today. The expensive gutting has already been done.
CSSHEGEWISCHThe main reason that the SS United States has not already been turned into razor blades is asbestos abatement. It's fairly well known that the liner was built with an outsized power plant for possible use as a troopship. This, in turn, meant that lots of asbestos was used as insulation for boilers, steam lines, etc. Needless to say, the expense of safely removing and disposing of the asbestos has made scrapping it a very expensive proposition.
The main reason that the SS United States has not already been turned into razor blades is asbestos abatement. It's fairly well known that the liner was built with an outsized power plant for possible use as a troopship. This, in turn, meant that lots of asbestos was used as insulation for boilers, steam lines, etc. Needless to say, the expense of safely removing and disposing of the asbestos has made scrapping it a very expensive proposition.
Well that's fantastic! That ship's too good to die!
Firelock76 It IS? When'd THAT happen? For a dead ship it sure gets around! I'll have to do some lookin'...
It IS? When'd THAT happen? For a dead ship it sure gets around!
I'll have to do some lookin'...
It was miracuously towed back in 1996, the victim of a stalled restoration. But she at least escaped the beach at Aliaga, for now.
It was bought by Norwegian Cruise Line along with the SS Independence back around 2000 under the guise of restoration for cruising but in reality, to ensure that these Jones Act compliant hulls wouldn't be entered into competition with them.
Incidentally, the Independence was the sistership to the Constitution, another notable American liner. She's best remembered today for an episode of I Love Lucy, being featured in An Affair to Remember with Cary Grant and Deborah Kerr, and bringing Grace Kelly to Monaco for her wedding. Sunk in the mid 1990's on her scrap tow under mysterious circumstances.
They scrapped the Independence threat after a respectable amount of time of waiting to keep appearances up, and were about to with the United States, when she was saved while plans hopefully come to fruition to use her for a floating hotel and museum.
You can even get on the deck of the SS United States! From the comfort of your computer desk! Run Google Earth, search for "SS United States". Then zoom in pretty close and select the little man on the right and place it over the deck someplace. Street View has been aboard!
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
The SS United States is tied up to a pier in south Philly on the Deleware River. Quite the impressive sight as one negotiates the insane I95 traffic through the city of brotherly love and no-rules driving!
.The problem with BIG antiques, and old ships certainly fit into that category, is in one way or another they've still got to earn their keep.
The battleships? Well, even though they've been set up as museums the US Navy still owns 'em, probably as a "just in case", but if the Navy needs them they're still there. The SS United States was sold off a long time ago. To my knowledge it's in a Turkish shipyard awaiting conversion to a cruising ship. Maybe.
Certainly I'd love to see a technical achivement such as the United States preserved as a floating museum, but what can you do?
And I agree with Dr. D, todays cruise ships are UG-LEEEEE! Yuck! If I'm going to take a cruise I want to do it on something that looks like a ship, not a floating apartment complex. Oh well, maybe a "Windjammer" cruise is the thing.
Its hard to belive that a steamship like SS United States with its massive marine propulsion plant has survived. Such unequaled quality and performance stands out historically as worthy of preservation.
Talk of draging that disaster of the Titanic off the ocean bottom and yet there is today a greater ship in danger of the scrap yard. Are there to be no great liners saved except for Queen Mary which is hardly preserved?
There ought to be some way of preserving the SS United States as a floating hotel if nothing else. Queen Mary they gutted its boilers and turbines for scrap and hauled the boilers out through the smoke stacks which were junked also - what a loss its just a shell not a ship. US Coast Guard lists it as a floating building!
Great Eastern gone, Maurentia gone, Olympic gone, Ill de France gone, Normandy gone, SS France gone, Queen Elizabeth gone, there is none left but SS United States! It could never be duplicated!
I don't think the new Queen Mary even rates in the quality of these former liners - looks more like a container ship for passengers and the Blue Riband is safe from her.
The American government should save its name sake ship SS United States - for crying out loud they saved those battleships Iowa, Missouri, New Jersey, and Wisconson. What about saving the SS United States and docking is in Washington as a historical landmark - its not a weapon of war its a symbol of peace! Doesn't anyone care about that?
Talking about the C.S.S. Hunley, I recall a movie many years ago all about it. It kept sinking and killing everyone on board then it would be salvaged and reused. Yet, in the movie the exact same guys were seen cranking the propellor shaft. I was a kid at the time but I sure noticed that! Didn't Clive Cussler have a hand in finding and salvaging it?
And I'm wrong, too, since I've since found several large ships with single screws with over 100,000 installed power (The E class container ships for Maersk).
But the list is definitily a short one and I've located no other examples. 40-50,000 HP is a much more common amount for giant commercial vessels.
It's worth noting that they've now changed direction with a follow-up class designed for significantly slower cruising, with twin 43,000 HP engines and two shafts.
I stand corrected. The largest marine diesel in service today is 'only' 108,970hp. Of course, adding two cylinders would put it over 125,000 shp.
Modern tankers and container ships prefer the single engine, single shaft design - for ships that displace more than a Nimitz class carrier when fully loaded. The single engine can be placed all the way aft, leaving the wider part of the hull as cargo space.
Warships are designed with multiple shafts more for redundancy than for additional power. If somebody is likely to damage your ship it's nice to have 2 or 4 shafts. Merchantmen have always preferred a single shaft for simplicity.
Chuck (long ago marine engineer cadet - on a single shaft steam powered ship)
With all due respect, I'm almost certain that you won't find any vessel with 120,000 HP on a single shaft. 65,000 is the highest that I'm aware of, and we're talking supercarrier for that example. Are you certain that you're not mis-remembering a statistic?
I believe that you'd have to go back to late in the trans-atlantic ocean liner era just to find a commercial vessel approaching that amount of horsepower on a single shaft (The SS United States, the Blue Riband record holder to this day, was about 60,000 to a propeller shaft for an example).
Steam plants can be extremely powerful and such installations were their forte and are why they survived far longer than on much smaller vessels.
Just surfed up some interesting data on steamboat boilers which might shed some light on why they were prone to explode.
As for seagoing steamships, the demise of steam was paralleled by the increase in size and power of marine diesels. Even before WWII there were Motor Vessels (MV) in the 10,000 ton range. (Submariners could hear the diesels - utterly unlike recip steam and far louder than turbines.) Today, a modern ship might have 120,000 HP on a single shaft - far more than any steamer ever built.
Chuck (long ago cadet marine engineer)
The one thing I find fascinating is that the Edmund Fitzgerald, built in 1957 was a hand-fired coal burner. A friend in the Navy said he served on a lake boat for about a week. Him and an old man would shovel coal until the pressure went up, then sat on a coal pile and drank whisky until the pressure started to drop, then back to shovelling. He did this 6 hours on, six hours off. He thought he was going to die! The ship was built in 1910, and still steaming in 1971 when he was aboard.
Yes, I was refering to riverboats, not all steam-powered vessels.
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