@ Firelock
Awrl-ride , there ! PeNNsylvania , for being one of the financial 'Megalosaurus' of early times of the United States in development , he just 'bought' (?) this land and called it his’ - so Woody Guthrie's "This land is your land .." ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxiMrvDbq3s ) did no longer apply ..
and I will slam on brakes real hard against a head of steam here - long old Sally-One must come to a screeching stop , no regards to smoke rising .
As concerns T1 electronically controlled electric actuation of valves : sure , and I'd make it programmable and remote controlled , too , so in case it starts to go astray it can be messed with from the diner’s or (and?) from home base to make the confusion complete - not to forget to beef up parameters a trifle bit by making allowances for such things as road altitude and degree of inclination , type of track and rail , air temperature and moisture , type of performance to be chosen in at least 12 steps between 'absolutely smooth' and 'positively sporty' - not to mention those influencing elements I have just this minute allowed to drop from my mind .
Geeee .. I wonder
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnS9M03F-fA
or if you prefer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg84L84uop8&index=34&list=RDTOSZwEwl_1Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_wrFI-Kbxk
or for chill out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YD9E79TO8pU
Uhm - cheers (?)
= J =
Oh good Lord, don't anyone even THINK of putting micro-processors, computers, or any gee-wizardry into steam locomotives! My job's not railroad related but I've had to deal with plenty of over-engineered equipment over the years and some of it's enough to make a grown man cry.
KISS rule, baby. And remember what Mr. Scott once said:
"The more ye complicate the plumbin' the easier it is to stop up the drain!"
Oh, and Pennsylvania? It means "Penn's Woods."
OvermodPlease advise if English translation of any of the above is necessary. ;-}
Perhaps some improvements in syntax could illuminate the rather murky prose? :-} Your use of a "sarcasm" emo apparently makes one immune (in your mind, at least) from charges being the author of snarky comments.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
ChuckHawkins would assume that you can place encoders on each engine. With the feedback available, taking it to your microprocessor, it would seem that you could send signals for actuation to the appropriate valves. This should stop slips, maximize steam usage, and provide appropriate steam at all speeds.
This approach is very true -- the problem is not that the system can't be made to work remarkably well, it's that when the system fails, the consequences are exceptionally dire. And there are many catastrophic points of potential failure in a control system of this type! About the last thing any practical railroad could want is a locomotive that can be completely incapacitated on the main by any number of simple failures, or that can suddenly experience full (or no) steam pressure on one or the other faces of one or more pistons... or that can pass abruptly from coasting bypass to high compression or vice versa without warning.
Remember that your system -- the encoders, actuators, PLC/processors, power supply, interconnect bus, etc. -- is going to be operating in a high-shock, dusty, wet, environment, maintained by people who are likely emphatically NOT NASA grade technicians or computer science/EE majors, and who are directed by people who are likely to buy from the lowest bidder and cut maintenance whenever they can...
In my opinion, if you are wise, you will provide a proportional mechanical system that provides 'default' valve actuation, and then do any fancy high-speed modulation of timing, duration, etc. via something like variable followers or secondary actuators in the valvetrain. Franklin type B or B-2 gear, or the drive-arm and shaft setup for type D, can be equipped to accomplish this comparatively easily (with any or a combination of sensor and actuator technologies). Note that a good Gray-coded rotary encoder of high precision can be incorporated into the Franklin or Reidinger-style gearbox very easily.
I further believe that for high-speed service you will want to provide a means of timing the valves that is separate from the means that physically moves them -- a relatively simple version of this principle being Corliss valves, which are spring-driven and need only be tripped like an escapement to cycle open or closed. It is not difficult to extend that principle to give valve opening and closing that can be modulated separately from timing and/or duration (there was at least one development of this in the late '90s, in Australia, that featured very complex motion of a physical valve via an automatic mechanism which cycled at each 'trip' and was autonomously regulated and powered).
Part of the 'fun' in past discussions of T1 "improvement" was to use only the systems and technologies that were available in the '40s and early '50s. Some very good proportional servo approaches for rotary and linear encoders existed then, as did rather good analog control methods (see gun directors, for example, or the system that was used for slip detection on the Q2 duplexes (note: NOT the system that implemented the slip control, which had significant problems).
Part of the confusion involved here is that there are a couple of contemporary projects involving modern steam. Project 130 is the CSR 'demonstration' project intended to reach 130 mph, which perhaps intentionally says it's intended to develop high-speed modern solid-fuel-burning locomotive power for Amtrak. (They carefully do not say that such 'new' locomotives will probably be very different from any reciprocating steam locomotive, let alone a modified ATSF Hudson design.)
The T1 Trust is the organization building a 'new' T1 -- with the explicit aim of keeping it as close as possible to the locomotive the PRR built, and making only the bare minimum of changes to make the locomotive workable and easy to service in a modern environment. There is no current intention to make the locomotive an 'ultimate' or 'extreme' demonstration of what's possible with a double-Atlantic duplex configuration; as noted elsewhere, such a locomotive would be very different from a T1 in a number of respects.
Please advise if English translation of any of the above is necessary. ;-}
Steam into New York's Pennsylvania Station was not an option. Not so in Transylvania.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZLPJuy9oyQ
I hope I'm not the only person confused by the premise of this restoration(bad choice of words for what's going on). If the goal is to show what can be done with steam in the modern era, why do they seem to be pursuing a replication of what was avilable in the last century?
I fail to understand why you would work with mechanical linkage and gearboxes as your solution.
I would assume that you can place encoders on each engine. With the feedback available, taking it to your microprocessor, it would seem that you could send signals for actuation to the appropriate valves. This should stop slips, maximize steam usage, and provide appropriate steam at all speeds.
It is a internet forum for crying out loud.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
schlimm Some folks can only dish out rude or dismissive or conteptuous remarks to others, but get controlling when the tables are turned. I apologize to all for this brief diversion, but Overmod brought it on himself, although I am quite certain he will deny that.
Some folks can only dish out rude or dismissive or conteptuous remarks to others, but get controlling when the tables are turned. I apologize to all for this brief diversion, but Overmod brought it on himself, although I am quite certain he will deny that.
You're right: the rude, dismissive, contemptuous (note sp.) folks certainly would say I'd deny that.
Now go put this post in the correct thread. (Sorry if that comes across as 'controlling')
[Edit: never mind, I'll do it.]
Overmod schlimm Fortunately I am not like them. Oh dear me!! Didn't you know, some people are always right? Except when they have no sense of sarcasm. You just demonstrated that you are one of that self-elect confraternity. [/sarc] (guess I need to provide the tag for some people.) There's a new thread just for this exquisite byplay -- please go there and use it from here on out.
schlimm Fortunately I am not like them. Oh dear me!! Didn't you know, some people are always right? Except when they have no sense of sarcasm.
You just demonstrated that you are one of that self-elect confraternity.
[/sarc] (guess I need to provide the tag for some people.)
There's a new thread just for this exquisite byplay -- please go there and use it from here on out.
Overmod Juniatha No, I'd just say what Heinlein would -- 'it's full on this side'. (Before I get tagged again for not referencing old white guy names post-'76ers might not recognize, that's Robert Anson Heinlein, an ex-Navy guy who wrote SF) schlimm Oh dear me!! Didn't you know, some people are always right? Except when they are not. Fortunately I am not like them.
Juniatha
No, I'd just say what Heinlein would -- 'it's full on this side'. (Before I get tagged again for not referencing old white guy names post-'76ers might not recognize, that's Robert Anson Heinlein, an ex-Navy guy who wrote SF)
schlimm Oh dear me!! Didn't you know, some people are always right? Except when they are not.
Fortunately I am not like them.
Oh dear me!! Didn't you know, some people are always right? Except when they have no sense of sarcasm.
JuniathaOvermod the problem is you *always* seem to need to make a controversy of everything . If I was to say for example "Tonight ( no , not *this* night of course ) there is a full moon up there" you'd say , "No it's not just tonight it's up there but its always full , only one cannot see it fully , and besides one does only see one side so one can never see all 360° of the moon and therefor never see it fully !" .
Oh dear me!! Didn't you know, some people are always right? Except when they are not.
all this information is interesting and applicable to understanding the problems with various approaches to control of steam distribution, and all contributions to this understanding should be welcome, since comparisons with what was used on the t1s and what might be used on 5500 are useful.
schlimmObserving those little details a wee bit more carefully, it should be quinque silvarum, which sort of kills the possibility of any more puns ...
Quintsylvania? (works if you torture it enough...) <ducks for cover>
OvermodNo, a name meaning that would have to be something like 'Rursylvania' ...the original term for the region was 'ultra sylvam', beyond the forest (later changed to 'trans' meaning something like 'across to the other side of'). In semantics (and Latin) sometimes the little details do have to be observed... ... which is why PRR could symbolically also be spelled Pensylvania RR - the railroad in the land of five forests ... ... but wouldn't 'Pentsylvania' have been a better pun in that case?
Observing those little details a wee bit more carefully, it should be quinque silvarum, which sort of kills the possibility of any more puns, Gott sei Dank.
I think the original suggestion was hydraulic actuation of the valve gear after the pattern of a Sikorsky helicopter, which was answered by the historical example of Meier Mattern valve gear. The suggestion that it was hydraulically actuated is probably all a person needs to know about it, considering that helicopters are incredibly maintenance intensive.
The last time helicopter tech was applied to a train was the United Aircraft, Sikorsky Division, TurboTrain. I would not apply the dreaded epithat "unsuccessful" on it, but let us just say the TurboTrain had its "issues."
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Folks ,
could we back up from down-under and again get to speak pensively of pending matters T1 of the good old one-and-only perennial-in-our-mind Pennsylvania RR once roaming hilly land as thickly forrested as Transsylvania - name meaning 'behind the forests' which is why PRR could symbolically also be spelled Pensylvania RR - the railroad in the land of five forests - *gee* -
... although , that would be another story yet .
Regards
Prof O.
If I may say , it's sentences like this one here [to quote]
>> (see the experience, for example, with Meier-Mattern valve gear) <<
which make people
( who do not necessarily have as big and complete a volume
and content of a library available as you let on to have )
feel cut off from discussion .
I'd appreciate if you could allow yourself to get down
and offer a minimum of a functional explanation
of such items you like to mention all-too laconically
by simply dropping *a name*
- would you mind ?
I don't think that there are any plans to fire up 523 at the moment, she is sitting on display at the museum, although not where she is is Balt's picture.
520 is operational, with steam ranger. 523 isn't, or isn't yet?
The post quote facility appears to be 'down' this morning, so I can't paste in the context.
BaltACD wanted to know what the 'destination sign' on the other side (the circular one that looks a bit like 'Kilroy Was Here') is.
Ivan Marchant noted: "The disc on the right of the picture is what we call the States Emblem or Piping Shrike. Up until the 1960’s, all locos built and operated in South Australia carried that emblem."
Overmod NorthWest 520 has retained her original headlight, which looks much better than the awful sealed beam arrangement that 523 has. Here are two views of 520 with the 'regular' headlight...
NorthWest 520 has retained her original headlight, which looks much better than the awful sealed beam arrangement that 523 has.
Here are two views of 520 with the 'regular' headlight...
BaltACD
What does the X or + sign indicate on the right side of the pilot. Also, what is the O in the left side of the top picture./quote]
From the steam_tech Yahoo group:
520 is, with Steamranger. 523 isn't.
Are 520 and/or 523 operational? Very well worth a trip to Austrailia to ride behind either! Along, of course, with enjoying the Melbourn tram system, now the world's largest, and with those classic W-type trams still iin serivce. Like the Milan Peter Witts, seem like they are eternal.
The 520 class is a documented copy of the T1 sharknose design. In an article in TRAINS many years ago at the time of the opening of the through standard-gauge transcon route in Australia, the designer of the 520 class stated that he drew on the styling of the T1 when designing the 520 class. Note that it even includes an all-weather cab.
What does the X or + sign indicate on the right side of the pilot. Also, what is the O in the left side of the top picture.
NorthWest520 has retained her original headlight, which looks much better than the awful sealed beam arrangement that 523 has.
Holy smoke Mr. Balt, that thing's amazing! I'd heard about those Aussie T-1 clones, but this it the first picture I've seen of one. Thanks for posting!
Ah, yes, the SAR 520 class. Good to see 523 out, regrettably she was rather hidden when I was there.
520 has retained her original headlight, which looks much better than the awful sealed beam arrangement that 523 has.
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