#60
Hi Juniatha! Let's keep in mind the ultimate advantage a coal-fired steamer has over a diesel. A diesel has no firebox you can roast hot dogs in, or a backhead you can fry bacon on!
OK, MAYBE you could fry bacon on a diesel exhaust manifold but I wouldn't guarantee the taste.
It'd be fun. I'll bring the hot dogs, the buns, the mustard and the potato chips. You bring the beer.
Wayne
#61
And you can warm a can, nicely, on the engine block. Do not, however, leave a can of baked beans on the block too long. It will open automatically and serve itself all over the inside of the hood!
But more on topic, Mr. Firelock, I am very much of the same mind as you. Man is just an annoying upstart in the worlds long history. If things get too out of kilter, the ol' globe will right her self, whether man survives the adjustment or not! So, yes, by all means throw coal on those grates! Steam generated by any other method just don't smell right! (Except maybe a good wood fire)
# 62
on those latest deviations
That reminds me of the old joke of the comet – after having travelled far and long through space on its mysterious orbit – passing earth again after 225,000 years ..:
“Hi –”
sings comet Metabird since she speaks seven sun systems languages fluently
“– ol’blu oddball ! what’s up in this region – how are you ?”
“Uuuh-huh” makes earth hardly audible “don’t ask me , I don’t feel well ..”
“Why ?” jauntily insists the comet for she always has but moments to spend while incessantly traveling at 1/12 the speed of light
“I see you don’t look as sparkling white and blue as you did last time – what happened ?”
“Ooh-” aches earth , “I’m sick , I’ve got Homo Sapiens ! and it’s become worse recently ..”
“Ah , that one !” the comet says lightly , almost sounding relieved and adds
“Never mind , old bluball , that doesn't lasts too long – if it worsens that means it’s in it’s final stage and then it will pass by soon !” , turning her tail already flashes by the sun and into space beyond – sending an airy farewell
“So long – see you next time , bye now !” she disappears in the immense blackness of the unknown ..
Regards
Juniatha
#63
Remember the wise words of the late Michael Crighton, the author of "Jurassic Park:
"This earth operates on cycles Man can't possibly imagine or understand. Man can't destroy the planet, he can only destroy himself."
So pass that coal! The hot dogs are waiting!
AND I just remembered, someone a while back, I don't know who, said there's almost nothing to compare with the scent of coal smoke, hot coffee, and a good cigar, especially if you're enjoying the same in the cab of a steam engine.
# 64
Uhm ... ok , now - shall we come back on steam ..?
I know , I can be so insisting , sometimes ...
Looking forward to some inspiring ideas on what *new* classic steam we should have build ( maybe the aircraft replica site linked to in 'the other' thread would fit here , too [ I'd like to have a DeHavilland Comet 4-4 .. *g* .. but I'm afraid they'd say "sorry , but that one's ever so slightly beyond scope" ] and where is the company to address for building replicas of most any steam someone might want ? )
#65
Hi Juniatha! Yes, that is the problem isn't it? If a replica steam engine's going to be built, I mean a BIG steam engine, a K4, a Hudson, a Niagara, just who's to build it? And where? I don't know.
Certainly there's David Kloke building his 4-4-0's. I won't say it's easy, but those are small engines, well within the capabilities of a well equipped manufacturing facility and machine shop. the big 'uns, that's another matter.
# 66
( # 65 )
Well ..
ship builders could ...
Some time in 1992 ( or was it 93 / 94 ?) a friend of mine had ontacted the Polish ship builders at Gdanska , the shipyard Lech Walesa had come from , the founder of Solidarnosc and later Polish minister president . At the Stocznia Gdańska he met the project manager a woman mechanical engineer who was ready and willing to build a new welded tender body and a welded frames structure for a new steam locomotive he had put up a design for to be built largely by using ( then ) existing DR standard main components , such as tender bogies , cylinders , wheel sets , Krauss-Helmholtz bogie and Adams radial axle , rods , 1960s type welded combustion chamber boiler and all the auxiliaries . This is the shipyard following Lenin shipyard , follower of the German works of Schichau who had built locomotives , too . See
http://www.gdanskshipyard.pl/en.html
they don’t mention it but they have also built new deep sea sailing ships , see
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stocznia_Gda%C5%84ska
sailing ships names ( year built ) , quoted from the site :
What builder could be addressed in the US ?
#67
Hi Juniatha! A SHIPYARD! Dammit, why didn't I think of that? Me with a shelf full of ship books, including one on modern sail with photos of some of those very ships you mentioned.
Of course a ship yard. they can do large steel castings, form and weld heavy gauge steel, they know boilers, all they need should be the plans.
The only shipyard here in the US I know of is Newport News Shipbuilding, they build carriers for the Navy. There's another yard in Pascagoula Mississippi but the name escapes me. I'm sure there's others here in the US.
And of course there's good old Harland and Wolf of Belfast. There was nothing wrong with the "Titanic" when she left Harland and Wolf, that's for certain!
# 68
Hi Wayne
( # 67 : Harald & Wolf )
Hmm - well , at least a steam locomotive shouldn't sink .. except for they had violated axle load limits by a most exceedingly excessive exaggeration and it leaving concrete it would go on a journey to the muddle of the earth ..
sending you
a choo-ey-choo
# 69
Uhm .. one thing that came to mind about those cast steel one piece engine beds complete with cylinders and brackets et all : this was a specially developed technology later lost , it was sort of a craftsmanship not unlike bell casting in special foundries yet demanding special skills in founding and venting these extra large pieces . This is one thing not easy to repeat - question is if it has to : the European counterpart had been fully welded frames structure - as I had posted those drawings - that could provide a way to obtain a principally equivalent structure , and likely it would be lighter for same sturdiness , although characteristics somewhat differ from the inherently very stiff , very rigid cast steel structure - not necessarily a disadvantage since large cast one piece structures tend to developing cracks in consequence of irregular tension or stress while a welded structure made up of relatively mild steel will be more forgiving by elastic bending or - if overloaded - plastic deformation , which still would be better to repair .
Also , a welded structure made up of cut out plain steel plates can easily be manufactured as a one-off piece without high first costs such as with casting .
Consequent question about normalizing such large structures ( this also applies to fully welded boilers ) : it simply wasn't done when building the fully welded boilers and frames structures of DB / DR 1950s standard steam loco types - and in contrary to what should have been expected it didn't prove a problem ( there sure must have been adjustments made in vehicle setup , though , during the settling period while normalizing out in service while boilers seem to have normalized pretty well enough and progressively under the alternating hot & cold service circles )
( .. and next : another one from my 'Steam we haven't Seen' pixures series coming up )
# *70*
Hi everybody
Here is my pixure from my ‘Steam we haven’t Seen’ series – this time again a study on the Pennsylvania T1 Duplex . I know , some would say "ah but this belongs to 'the other' thread !" - yet while I could have done that , I see this more as a proposal to possible ventilating a new built T-class Duplex when contemplating to make up for major loco classes lost in the years of heedless transition ..
T1b :
I have done away with the outboard frames bogie and repositioned the first set of cylinder blocks so we have two identical drive sets as I have commented before I prefer for dual drive set locomotives ( or multi-set , to be sure )
The resultant position of the hind bogie axle between-below cylinders had been realized by the deGlehn Atlantics and others ; without having made an exact study on track conditions prevalent of the Pennsy mainlines I think it should not present a problem especially with cast steel engine bed as they had it where cylinder-to-frames connection is a consistent one and the cylinders are of small diameter with the Duplex and 300 psi b.p. notably since the rear wheels of the bogie are positioned slightly in advance of cylinders while in the deGlehn Atlantics and 4-6-0s they had been directly underneath them .
The firebox appears to be large – yet at closer look you will see it’s mainly the cab has been repositioned to the rear to have more space for the crew with less intruding boiler back side .
The tender – as I had written at various points before – has been lightened to fit on 2 x 6 wheel bogies , mass saving coming not just from somewhat smaller water & coal compartments but at least as much by doing away with the heavy cast steel water bottom frame in favour of a self-supporting uni-body structure with but a light backbone to take up longitudinal positive / negative traction / mass surge forces .
The lower supplies should be made up by more efficient combustion ( no prolonged running under black smoke ribbon , generally white or light grey trail of steam ) and low ssc ( specific steam consumption ) by really linking up without fear of loosing effective draughting as was the case in the T1 as built – quite in contradiction to expansion rates aimed at with application of poppet valve gear .
Doing away with the lateral water pockets making the original tender sides reach down makes the tender *look* much lighter with but a small loss of water capacity . With the uni-body design a smooth , rounded-edged bottom of water tank would be preferable to the rather cleft bottom as built which was more prone to rust consumption and clogging up by residue deposits from standing water .
I have tried to stay with the original Loewy design theme around the front end yet have aimed at lightening the rather bulky lower casing which so contrasts with the exceedingly slender looking boiler front wedge , at the same time providing optical logic to its shape which in my view it partly lacks in its original form . The air pumps I have repositioned sideways above the bogie , there is a little edge showing behind the lower edge of the front casing , the shape-disturbing ‘horns’ in that casing have thus disappeared , the shape of the casing is harmonized with the smoke box wedge in that latter now stands free of the upward angle of steps to running board .
T2a :
Since I was at it , I gave it a second thought , re-installing the original express duplex wheel diameter of 84 ins and accordingly lengthening the engine in this section . 5 % larger wheels may not sound sensational , yet it eases rpm mass inertia by 10 % for any given speed and that does make a difference at 100 mph plus .
If you ask me , the 84 ins wheel sets look more express-like and are more up to the still largish tender proportions , making the whole locomotive more harmonious in appearance .
Oh , and for sure I would have applied *effective* load balancing between drive sets and make sure I have a well adapting engine suspension in front bogie and rear truck , too , ensuring equal and constant adhesion mass on both sets at all times - complete with effective sanding to all powered wheels .
T1 as built , same view for comparison :
Facing the inevitable “dig it – original is best!” comment , yet hoping for some deeper contemplations , too ..
# 71
Hi Juniatha!
I flipped back and forth several times between the pictures of your postulated T-1's and the original. You know what? Yours look a lot better, more balanced, more harmonious, and there's no reason it wouldn't have worked, not that I can see. Aeronautical engineers have a saying which I'm sure you know, "If it looks good, it'll fly good!", and your T-1's certainly look like flyers.
Seems odd to say, but the original has kind of a stumpy, cluttered look compared to your remodels.
Young lady, you were born too late. Had you lived in the 1940's you might have saved steam!
Well, maybe some racing stripes on the remodels would look cool, but thet may be going too far!
# 72
Juniatha!!! The T2a is beautiful! Amazing. That made my day.
JuniathaI have done away with the outboard frames bogie
Thank you! After seeing pictures of the SAR 520s, I've wondered why they chose the outside frame...IMHO every engine looks better with an inside frame front truck (if two axle).
These are wonderful. Your photograph wizardry is some of the best I've seen. Beautiful. If only...
NW
# 73
Great job, Now clean up the Dryfuss Century J-3a's!
# 74
Clean up the Dreyfuss J-3a's? I dont think there's much to clean up Dave, except maybe some of the external plumbling on the port side, and maybe that had to be left exposed for a good reason.
Personally, I LIKE the Dreyfuss Hudsons as they are, but if they're not to your taste that's OK, that's what makes a horse race, as they say. Then again I liked the T-1 as it was until I saw Juniatha's face-lift of the same, so you could be right.
# 75 ( ref #70)
The revisions are reminisent of Loewy's original conceptual design of the T-1, application of some of the appliances and the PRR proposed changes took away the more sleek look. The sleek design is more appealing as in your touchup. The side mounted keystone near the front cylinder looks out of place, also it would be too close to the keystone mounted on the front. Suggest moving it back more in the area of the cab, tender or eliminated.
The crew would appreciate your moving the cab back, the less bulkhead the better...more room as you suggested, and in cab overheating. Some locomotive designs were tough on the crew as they vertually sat along side the firebox
The impressive Dryfuss NYC Hudson, as suggested, could use some work to be more complimentary of the unique nose job. You see this distinctive mod front then suddenly the drivers on it appear they stick out like a girl with knobby knee's in a mini-skirt. Curious to see how you would blend it all together.
# 76
@ K4SPRR
To quote from my post # 70 : „I have tried to stay with the original Loewy design theme around the frontend ..”
To quote from your post # 75 : >> The revisions are reminisent of Loewy's original conceptual design ..<<
Now , what a surprise ! it is reminiscent of Loewy’s when I intended to stay close to Loewy’s .
However I guess you didn’t bother to read the explanatory notes anyways , never mind , it's ok .
= J =
Juniathaoriginal Loewy design theme around the front end
I was comparing it to more than just your reference to the front end, if you had read my post you would have noted the word "revisions". Certainly no offense was intended as I did mention how more sleek it looked and unfortunately it could not retain such on the actual locomotive. Yes, I read it...OK...move on.
#78
On the 21st Century steam developments, C&O 1309 may be rebuilt to run on the Western Maryland Scenic!
How about steaming up a 2-6-6-6? It would be fun to see what she would do with today's stack trains...
# 79
Ok , K4SPRR
thanks for reply , I accept your 'revision' -
and : no insult intended , neither .
As for the Dreyfuss J-3a : I feel the design was quite good in that it did not conceal the fact it was a steam locomotive - only objectionable thing to me would be cover over tender bogies making tender somewhat bulkier than it needed to be ...
I think folks parted into Dreyfuss and Loewy supporters the way they parted into Beatles / Rolling Stones fans and do part into 'Beamer' and Mercedes drivers or what have you ... well , as long as we can smile about ourselves being like it , it's half bad .
NorthWest
>> How about steaming up a 2-6-6-6? It would be fun to see what she would do with today's stack trains...<<
Oh-yeah - would be great , no doubt !
#80
Alleghenies were noted for their very high axle loads and as such would be probably even more restricted than a Big Boy over where they could run. That being said, it would be interesting to see them in intermodal service and showing off their design capabilities beyond dragging 160 cars of coal to Lake Erie.
#81
CSSHEGEWISCH #80 Alleghenies were noted for their very high axle loads (snipped)
Alleghenies were noted for their very high axle loads (snipped)
True, sadly. But, today, do we have any lighter alloys to possibly make a new one less heavy?
# 82
What I don't like about the Dryfuss J3A. The nose "fin" is like a girl with a ring in her nose. Unnatural. Why hide the tender trucks if you are exposing the drivers? Why follow the angle of the bottom of the firebox, looks out of place with all the horizonta lines.
# 83
daveklepper What I don't like about the Dryfuss J3A. The nose "fin" is like a girl with a ring in her nose. Unnatural. Why hide the tender trucks if you are exposing the drivers? Why follow the angle of the bottom of the firebox, looks out of place with all the horizonta lines.
Your nose ring analogy makes me wonder if, in the unlikely event a new design 21st century steam locomotive design is built (a la the 5AT), it should have a "nose fin" as way to attract the under 30 crowd to the joys of railfanning..
After all, nose rings are perfectly natural to them...
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
# 84
JuniathaI think folks parted into Dreyfuss and Loewy supporters the way they parted into Beatles / Rolling Stones fans
Not really...."it's still rock and roll to me..."
# 85
K4sPRR
>> "it's still rock and roll to me..." <<
I’ve heard this song before - only , who's the singer ?
Daveklepper
>> The nose "fin" is like a girl with a ring in her nose. Unnatural. Why hide the tender trucks if you are exposing the drivers? Why follow the angle of the bottom of the firebox, looks out of place with all the horizonta lines. <<
Can’t see the analogy – a vertical fin is like a horizontal ring ? a big machete-like sickle is like a tiny hanger ?
In medieval times , dancing bears were shown around wearing a leash ring through the nose – I don’t understand people wearing something akin to that in their face for everybody to see .
What the Dreyfuss sickle reminds me of is an ancient Roman Empire soldier’s helmet ( casque ) – I had earlier written about it already , if in a sarcastic way ; like the pyramids both side of the Atlantic Ocean – in ancient Egypt and in Middle-America – sickled casques both sides the Atlantic might be taken ( or mistaken ?) as an indication there *has been* an island of Atlantis in antediluvian times – *g* . However , in fact it took up the way the Iroquois warriors had their hair cut and since they had been living in those eastern areas it may really be seen as a revenant in certain ways . It was thus quite a martial attribute and as such quite in contrast to a thing like a nose ring . It very well complimented the ‘skyline’ casing on the boiler and in a bold yet logic form provided to it a start up at the front end .
Hiding the tender trucks seems something that came handy and obviously was an effort to sort of ‘amalgamate’ the tender with the train . Note : so often in graphics steam locomotives are depicted without a tender at all , the – mostly pretty open – cab being right in front of the leading car . It seems to have been an ideal for designers ever since to ‘do away’ with that ‘thing’ , at least to make it disappear from view , see the Century stripes on tender sides but not on engne valances . The theme of emphasizing on the large powered wheels and rods yet silently letting carrying wheels slip into oblivion was taken up with the paint scheme first of all – the idea had been kind of suggested by engine design since at least the trailing carrying wheels were largely hidden behind truck frame and so were the tender wheels .
The shape of these side valances on the engine was quite ingenious to me as it repeated in a snappy stylish way the shape and position of firebox and combustion chamber – just ever so slightly over-emphasizing on it , promoting the character of increased power contained in this engine as compared with previous Hudson types .
I have modified an already quite cute view of a Dreyfuss Hudson on depot track , mainly extending the Twentieth Century sides stipes over the engine valances and taking away some of the tender skirting . Also , I colorized the b&w in a quasi-solarization illumination reflective style ...
However , if you ask me all was well with the regular Hudson :
( name of painter presently unknown , I will try to find out ; colors and angles improved by =J=
@ NorthWest / CSSHEGEWISCH
About the Allegheny :
Today very much the same engine - boiler dimensions , pressure , cylinders d x s , drive wheel diameter et all - could be manufactured to about 24 - 26 t axle load limit while the original's was 39 t [metric each] . Yet , that would inevitably affect the engine's adhesion limit tractive effort , same cylinder tractive effort notwithstanding . Or in other words - it would tend to become rather a very powerful and big passenger train engine - especially if steam circuits would be revised ...
Juniatha >> "it's still rock and roll to me..." << I’ve heard this song before - only , who's the singer ?
Billy Joel
Ooooooo, the Hudson Valley with a Hudson rolling along it! That's the Bear Mountain Bridge in the background. I walked it many years ago hiking the Appalachian Trail, it's one of the few bridges in the US with a pedestrian toll, ten cents as I recall.
A very historic area, to the right and out of view were the sites of two Revolutionary War forts, Forts Clinton and Montgomery. They protected the original chain stretched across the Hudson River that was placed to prevent the British navy from penetrating the Hudson Highlands. The chain was just about where the bridge is now. The British took both forts after a sharp fight in October of 1777, broke the chain and let it drop to the river bottom, where it lies to this day.
Beautiful country up that way, especially when the leaves are beginning to turn as they are in the painting. More a fijord than a river the Hudson's been called "Americas Rhine". I've never been to the Rhine but one of my uncles crossed it in 1945, although he wasn't there sightseeing, if you know what I mean.
Hey, what's wrong with the nose fin on the Dreyfuss? I LIKE the nose fin on the Hudson! Anyone who doesn't like the Dreyfuss Hudson probably doesn't like chocolate ice cream either!
#89
Juniatha, amazing work!
I kind of like the fin, that's probably a part of why a picture of one is on two album covers...
The unstreamlined Hudsons are also good lookers, well proportioned, and with perfect headlight placement (unlike the Niagaras...that later sealed beam headlight is awful...and its position on the front...imho the NYC should have followed the Hudsons' looks.)
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