Overmod Firelock76 Maybe 611 DID laugh at the wreck of the Penn Central. Who knows? Maybe on a cold, clear moonlit night in Wasena Park, with the wind whistling over the smokestack and down the sides, through the ashpan and up through the firebox someone may have heard a low chuckle from somewhere..... She is not that kind of girl. Virginians understand noblesse oblige.
Firelock76 Maybe 611 DID laugh at the wreck of the Penn Central. Who knows? Maybe on a cold, clear moonlit night in Wasena Park, with the wind whistling over the smokestack and down the sides, through the ashpan and up through the firebox someone may have heard a low chuckle from somewhere.....
Maybe 611 DID laugh at the wreck of the Penn Central. Who knows? Maybe on a cold, clear moonlit night in Wasena Park, with the wind whistling over the smokestack and down the sides, through the ashpan and up through the firebox someone may have heard a low chuckle from somewhere.....
She is not that kind of girl. Virginians understand noblesse oblige.
Well, not all the time Overmod. After the fall of Richmond in 1865 a Union soldier helped an old lady who'd fallen to her feet and carried her groceries home for her. "Thank you young man" she said, "If there's a cool place in Hell I hope you get it!"
That is true. 611 is a lady and would have kept her delight to herself.
lois
Never underestimate the revenge of a queen.
I have read "Steam's Camelot" and are familiar with the battle the Claytors faced. I don't like to speak ill of the dead either, but anyone who would scrap 7 and 8 year old locomotives hints of insensitive. If she could, I believe 611 would have laughed if she heard of the wreck of Penn Central.
John WR Firelock76The Men Who Loved Trains" by Rush Loving to get the story. I may just have to break down and buy the book. It isn't available from any of the country libraries in my system. I have read The Wreck of the Penn Central by Joseph Daughen and Peter Binzen.
Firelock76The Men Who Loved Trains" by Rush Loving to get the story.
I may just have to break down and buy the book. It isn't available from any of the country libraries in my system. I have read The Wreck of the Penn Central by Joseph Daughen and Peter Binzen.
John, "The Men Who Loved Trains" was published in 2006 so if there's any copies around, say from Amazon.com they should be available at a pretty good discount.
If there are any used book dealers in your area leave your name with them. Most are very good in calling customers looking for a specific article if it shows up in the shop.
If there are any train shows coming up in New Jersey check them out as well. Scroll to the bottom of this page and check out "Resources", then "Coming Events", its very comprehensive. Train shows are a lot of fun to visit at any rate, and New Jersey seems to have them on a pretty regular basis, both big and little ones.
Wayne
Overmod, maybe I should have said Saunders was a "bottom-liner", it's what I meant by money-man. Brosnan of the Southern was a "bottom-liner" as well, spent no money, ran the Southern into the ground and Graham Claytor had to pick up the pieces.
Getting back to love of the business. Graham and Bob Claytor were lawyers, certainly. As specialists in corporate law they could have gone into any business they wanted but they chose railroading. Why? I have to believe it was a love of the industry.
And oh yeah, Saunders was no leader and no genius, except for finding a rising tide to ride. But when his luck ran out, oh brother. Down he came and everything else with him.
Firelock76 I don't like to speak ill of the dead, but Stuart Saunders was a money-man, not a railroader.
I don't like to speak ill of the dead, but Stuart Saunders was a money-man, not a railroader.
Saunders was a lawyer, not a 'money man.' But Bob Claytor was a lawyer, not a railroader. So was Graham Claytor.
Brosnan, on the other hand, was a railroader.
The issue was not that Saunders was a 'money man' -- it's that the man was a buffoon when it came to actually running an organization anywhere but into the ground. And yes, your point about railroad executives needing to have what today is called a 'passion for' railroading is very, very valid.
Hi John!
Well, Stuart Saunders and Al Perlman didn't start butting heads until the Penn Central era which is another story. Right now we're comcerned with the N&W in the tail end of the 50's.
Certainly railroading and capital go hand-in-hand, but when I say Saunders was a money man I mean, and I believe "The Men Who Loved Trains" bears me out, Saunders was running the N&W simply because it was his job. He could have been running Ford Motor Company, or US Steel, or anything else as far as his emotional involvement was concerned. The railroad in it's own right meant little or nothing to him.
It gets back to a comment I made on a post a year or so ago. Railroading strikes me as more of a vocation than a job. The best railroad executives like Al Perlman or the Claytors look at it that way.
Firelock76I don't like to speak ill of the dead, but Stuart Saunders was a money-man, not a railroader.
Wayne,
Based on what I have read railroad financing and railroad technology were intertwined almost from the beginning. Building and even operating a railroad is an expensive proposition and usually requires that large sums of money be borrowed. The borrowed money must be managed. Managing the money may lead to bad technical decisions but if the money is poorly managed there may be no railroad regardless of how well operated it is. As I see it the problem with Stuart Saunders is not that he was a money man; it is rather that he and Alfred Perlman who was a railroad man if ever there was one were barely on speaking terms.
John
I don't like to speak ill of the dead, but Stuart Saunders was a money-man, not a railroader. Read "The Men Who Loved Trains" by Rush Loving to get the story.
To get the story of how 611 was saved read "Steams Camelot" by Jim Wrinn. Let me tell you, Graham and Bob Claytor fought like lions to save that locomotive, and praise be they won.
Like it is very hard for me to tolerate Stuart Saunders who had nearly all the N&W steam engines scrapped. 611 had to be begged for. 1218 happened to be in the right place at the right time-twice. Most of what was probably the finest fleet of steam engines are now irreparably lost.
Firelock76eah, well you better get ready John, one of these days you may be hearing "Drums Along The Mohawk!"
Yeah. Well you better remember Wayne. Rome fell and this extra Mohawk is exactly the same thing. I'm warning you.
Yeah, well you better get ready John, one of these days you may be hearing "Drums Along The Mohawk!"
OvermodThat wasn't me, it was him!
Yeah, Bob, but I'm suspicious of everybody. You're all alike, part of the second Mohawk conspiracy.
John WRNo sir ree Bob!
That wasn't me, it was him!
M636Cey're not the same....
That is a dissssssspickable think to say. You are just trying to pull a fig newton of your imagination down over my eyes. Meanwhile, Wayne is taking the country to WRACK and RUIN with that extra Mohawk. But you are not fooling me. No sir ree Bob! I will immediately write a letter to my good friend Daffy Duck and we shall see that all of you bleeding heart steam liberal are exposed for the spendthrifts that you are. Just you wait and see.
I'd like to see some New York Central steam power running around loose on the mainline myself. Oh well, if I ever hit the Mega-Millions or the Powerball I'll have a talk with those good people out in Elkhart.
If I recall correctly, #3001 never got the 72" drivers (that was #3000). Both would be 69". with the L3 having lightweight improved rodwork, roller bearings, dynamic balancing, etc. to reach the higher speed expected.
I do wish that one of the L4s had been preserved. But will happily settle for 2 NYC road power of any kind...
John WR Hey, Wayne, Wait a darn minnit. You say there are TWO Mohawks? I just paid my income tax ann now I learn that all you bleeding heart steam liberals are using my tax dollars for TWO Mohawks? Why isn't ONE Mohawk enough? It is no wonder my streets are so full of potholes when we have to support that extra Mohawk. This is out--effing--rageious. I think we should immediately get rid of one of those Mohawks and relieve the poor burdened tax payers of this nation from our oppression. John
Hey, Wayne, Wait a darn minnit. You say there are TWO Mohawks? I just paid my income tax ann now I learn that all you bleeding heart steam liberals are using my tax dollars for TWO Mohawks? Why isn't ONE Mohawk enough? It is no wonder my streets are so full of potholes when we have to support that extra Mohawk. This is out--effing--rageious. I think we should immediately get rid of one of those Mohawks and relieve the poor burdened tax payers of this nation from our oppression.
They're not the same....
2933 is an L-2 but 3001 is an L-3
I don't think they have the same wheel diameter....
The L-3 is the one that looks like J-1 Hudson (more or less).....
M636C
I might have known it, Wayne. All of that time you were distracting me while those other guys snuck in that extra Mohawk. It's no wonder this country has a debt crisis. When will it all end?
I'll let you in on a dirty little secret of mine John. I like the Mohawk better than the Hudson.
So shoot me.
Wow, so there's TWO Mohawks out there! Interesting. I was wondering what was going on with those pictures from the MOT in St. Louis. "My Gawd, she's NEKKED!"
Organizations that operate steam should budget for eventual inspections and overhauls the way aircraft owners do. The first day it rolls out of the shop you estimate the anticipated cost of the next overhaul, divide by the magic 1472, then set aside that much money for every hour it operates. It may not cover it all, but you will be way ahead of the game.
PS: I just remembered there's a Mohawk still in existance. It's at the New York Central Historic Society museum in Elkhart, Indiana.
There is another surviving NYC Mohawk at the Museum of Transportation in ST. Louis, MO.
These were taken in 2008, so I Hope that they have made progress, but it was only planned to be a Cosmetic restoration, not an operating one, unfortunately. The MOT in St. Louis has an Incredible collection of Railroad equipment, and I Highly reccomend it to anyone who has a chance to visit it. Doug
These were taken in 2008, so I Hope that they have made progress, but it was only planned to be a Cosmetic restoration, not an operating one, unfortunately.
The MOT in St. Louis has an Incredible collection of Railroad equipment, and I Highly reccomend it to anyone who has a chance to visit it.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
The lonesome Mohawk was bought from the NYC (at scrap prices) to replace a T&P 2-10-4 which had been vandalized beyond recovery while on display in the Dallas area. It was still there, and relatively undamaged, when the great NYC locomotive hunt started.
Looking back 60 years or so, it's difficult to understand the mindset that existed then. After the uphevals of WWII, it was, "Out with the old! In with the new!" not only on the rails but throughout the society. Even historically significant buildings were abandoned and razed to make way for the, "New!" - strip malls. Also, NYC was involved in a financial war - and EVERYTHING was converted to cash so the management could bribe the stockholders with dividends that couldn't be sustained. Preserving historically important locomotives wasn't the last thing on those people's minds, it never even entered their minds.
Chuck
Firelock76I just remembered there's a Mohawk still in existance. It's at the New York Central Historic Society museum in Elkhart, Indiana.
Do you know if it was Al Perlman who saved the Mohawk? I not only agree with you about him; I'm surprised. If there was ever anyone who loved railroads it certainly was Alfred Perlman. He was a car cleaner when he was 16 and from there on the sky was the limit. So, as you point out, the scrap value of one example of each locomotive would not have made very much of a difference in his bottom line at all. Harold Vanderbilt would have saved the engines had he still been on the Board.
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