Sad News - Grand Canyon RR to cease steam operations.

[vsmith]

Green is all about a viewpoint that is considered to be enlightened.  And that enlightenment is in contrast to the old ways of doing things.  It is quite evident that the green movement loves and is closely associated with a sense of future and modernity.

B:

I wouldn't necessarily say so. "Green" is a viewpoint that is altogether ready to toss out history, the future, mankind, efficiency, health, safety, or even the landscape if it doesn't fit their bizarro ideology. (Wind farms are "green", but they are certainly visual pollution, for instance). What it is marked by, above all, is a lack of proportion, and quasi-religious thinking. This is not your father's environmentalism. It has lost all reason; it is based on misplaced faith.

These locos are providing enjoyment to a lot of people, but that doesn't matter, because people are not Green. Their exhaust gas production is negligible. It's not even a drop in the bucket. It's hardly a molecule in the bucket. But Greenism does not acknowledge the existence of buckets, or mathematics, in this case. Producing a single molecule of their designated satanic gases is a secular sin against Green religious principles.

It's sad when it has come to this.

As an old-school environmentalist, even I can see that a individual steam locomotive's effect on the environment is absolutly negligable, a single Gulfstream carrying some idiot rap star around the country is far FAR worse, yet you done see the green movement trying to take away P-Diddy's jetplane now do you. Now consider how many hollywood and business execs use those Gulfstreams, which put that pollution at 30,000 feet, not at ground level where the local flora could absorb some of the carbon, yet the few remaining steam locomotives are the enemy, yeah right...

I really hope they sell off the engines, so at least they can live on somewhere else.

 

 

[Autobus Prime]

Green is all about a viewpoint that is considered to be enlightened.  And that enlightenment is in contrast to the old ways of doing things.  It is quite evident that the green movement loves and is closely associated with a sense of future and modernity.

B:

I wouldn't necessarily say so. "Green" is a viewpoint that is altogether ready to toss out history, the future, mankind, efficiency, health, safety, or even the landscape if it doesn't fit their bizarro ideology. (Wind farms are "green", but they are certainly visual pollution, for instance). What it is marked by, above all, is a lack of proportion, and quasi-religious thinking. This is not your father's environmentalism. It has lost all reason; it is based on misplaced faith.

These locos are providing enjoyment to a lot of people, but that doesn't matter, because people are not Green. Their exhaust gas production is negligible. It's not even a drop in the bucket. It's hardly a molecule in the bucket. But Greenism does not acknowledge the existence of buckets, or mathematics, in this case. Producing a single molecule of their designated satanic gases is a secular sin against Green religious principles.

It's sad when it has come to this.

[Anonymous]

Most people posting on other forums refuse to believe that Xanterra dropped steam in order to be green, even though Xanterra has said so themselves.  When I read Xanterra's website including 12 pages about their intense environmental philosophy and action plan, I have no problem believing that they dropped steam solely to be green.  Not only is their action understandable, it was predictable. 

The reason that most people want to believe is responsible for Xanterra dropping steam is to save money by lowering operating cost, which would occur if they reverted back to diesels.  However, I don't believe that diesels are going to be green enough for Xanterra.  I speculate that electrification is the only solution will meet their green criteria for the railroad. 

Some may argue that if steam was too costly, electrification will be more costly, so it would not make sense.  But again, that assumes that the dropped steam for cost reduction.  I believe that not only was cost reduction not a factor, but they will actually be willing to raise their investment cost in order to make the railroad green.

There is a lot of consternation these days about how to make national park natural attractions accessible to people, but not their cars.  Public transit is the model to get people out of their cars, and LRT is the preferred embodiment of public transit.  So the GCRY comes ready made to fulfill that purpose.  If you replace its steam with electric, the whole Grand Canyon rail concept is as green as can be.     

I was only joking when I said they could switch to Green Goats!

I really doubt they could push the "historic" aspect of their marketing line if they convert to electric, and then what would they use? there arent enough old historic traction motor units around unless they import some from overseas somewhere. Any ideas?

I really wonder what they would use, if they turn it into a simple modern electric commuter train your forced to use in leiu of driving to the rim, I feel they will get bite very hard on the tourist end. Say goodbye to that market.

I believe that they would willingly say goodbye to that market.  I think it is also possible that they do not understand the size of that market being that it is woven into the market that wants to see the Grand Canyon.  But in any case, I think that in general, historical preservation tends to compete with the green vision in the same way steam locomotives specifically do.  Green is all about a viewpoint that is considered to be enlightened.  And that enlightenment is in contrast to the old ways of doing things.  It is quite evident that the green movement loves and is closely associated with a sense of future and modernity.

[MOPACnut]

 I'm reminded why i hate greenies like them now (insert cussing and name calling here)

  Face it these greenies hate steam engines. There's a video on Youtube showing 2 narrow gauge steamers (hitting a cow ) and there's at least 1 commenting about the smoke the're making every week (one even explained how steamers work, though he had no idea what he was talking about, and i didn't either )

[vsmith]

Most people posting on other forums refuse to believe that Xanterra dropped steam in order to be green, even though Xanterra has said so themselves.  When I read Xanterra's website including 12 pages about their intense environmental philosophy and action plan, I have no problem believing that they dropped steam solely to be green.  Not only is their action understandable, it was predictable. 

The reason that most people want to believe is responsible for Xanterra dropping steam is to save money by lowering operating cost, which would occur if they reverted back to diesels.  However, I don't believe that diesels are going to be green enough for Xanterra.  I speculate that electrification is the only solution will meet their green criteria for the railroad. 

Some may argue that if steam was too costly, electrification will be more costly, so it would not make sense.  But again, that assumes that the dropped steam for cost reduction.  I believe that not only was cost reduction not a factor, but they will actually be willing to raise their investment cost in order to make the railroad green.

There is a lot of consternation these days about how to make national park natural attractions accessible to people, but not their cars.  Public transit is the model to get people out of their cars, and LRT is the preferred embodiment of public transit.  So the GCRY comes ready made to fulfill that purpose.  If you replace its steam with electric, the whole Grand Canyon rail concept is as green as can be.     

I was only joking when I said they could switch to Green Goats!

I really doubt they could push the "historic" aspect of their marketing line if they convert to electric, and then what would they use? there arent enough old historic traction motor units around unless they import some from overseas somewhere. Any ideas?

I really wonder what they would use, if they turn it into a simple modern electric commuter train your forced to use in leiu of driving to the rim, I feel they will get bite very hard on the tourist end. Say goodbye to that market.

[Anonymous]

Most people posting on other forums refuse to believe that Xanterra dropped steam in order to be green, even though Xanterra has said so themselves.  When I read Xanterra's website including 12 pages about their intense environmental philosophy and action plan, I have no problem believing that they dropped steam solely to be green.  Not only is their action understandable, it was predictable. 

The reason that most people want to believe is responsible for Xanterra dropping steam is to save money by lowering operating cost, which would occur if they reverted back to diesels.  However, I don't believe that diesels are going to be green enough for Xanterra.  I speculate that electrification is the only solution will meet their green criteria for the railroad. 

Some may argue that if steam was too costly, electrification will be more costly, so it would not make sense.  But again, that assumes that the dropped steam for cost reduction.  I believe that not only was cost reduction not a factor, but they will actually be willing to raise their investment cost in order to make the railroad green.

There is a lot of consternation these days about how to make national park natural attractions accessible to people, but not their cars.  Public transit is the model to get people out of their cars, and LRT is the preferred embodiment of public transit.  So the GCRY comes ready made to fulfill that purpose.  If you replace its steam with electric, the whole Grand Canyon rail concept is as green as can be.     

[vsmith]

Repost from the other forum, but bears repeating here:

I am still wondering what the long term plan for the GCRR is thru Xanterra, I mean if there so Green that they are killing the steam engines and maybe even the Alco's, whats left to pull the trains? They would need twice the number of F40ph's they currently have, and I would really hate to see some generic GP unit at point. Maybe a fleet of Green Goats?

I still think the suits are looking at this from a bottom line cost savings measure more so than any "green" considerations, my concern is that at the time Xanterra took over operations in '07 there was a stated plan to try and severly limit auto traffic into the canyon and to make the GCRR the primary point of entry for people into the park, which to my interpretation could signal essentially turning it into more of a transit system than a tourist line, and as such the costs associated with the steam loco's would not figure into the bottom line, not to mention the labor costs asociated, the proof will be in what they chose as motive power from here on out.

[oltmannd]

If they want to be green, could they switch to charcoal fuel? By definition it is carbon neutral. But will it raise steam in a coal-fired engine?

Charcoal is 100% carbon, so burning it makes all CO2.  How is this carbon neutral?

[Bergie]

:-( We were planning to go there next year.

 

Me too!

We just purchased tickets to fly to Phoenix next summer (that's how far out in advance you have to plan a trip to redeem stinkin' frequent flyer miles!). Part of the vacation was going to be a trip to the Grand Canyon, and the Grand Canyon RR. Drats!

Bergie

[benburch]

If they want to be green, could they switch to charcoal fuel? By definition it is carbon neutral. But will it raise steam in a coal-fired engine?

[New Haven I-5]

We lose the skunk train & the Grand Canyon Railway steam! Why? Why!

[Anonymous]

Is Steamtown run by the Parks Dept? Why would they shun steam in the canyon but promote it in Scranton? I think its all about the been counters not wanting to spend the $$$.

 

Well the consensus of speculation of bystanders seems to be that they have discontinued steam because of the cost, but according to the above information posted by Glen Brewer, the company now operating the GCRY has stated that they have discontinued steam because they want to be green and they do not think steam is in keeping with their environmental mission.  I see no reason to believe that they are just using that explanation as an excuse to cover a motive of reducing cost.

As for Steamtown, it may have the same exposure to federal involvement, but it is about steam locomotives, whereas GCRY is primarily about the Grand Canyon.  And the Grand Canyon is all about environmentalism.  Furthermore, while the federal involvement may be an influence toward being green, I think the major driver is the preference of Xanterra Parks & Resorts.  It all boils down to the personality of the people running the company.  They might not have any personal interest in steam locomotives.  Green people love light rail, not steam locomotives.   

[pmsteamman]

Is Steamtown run by the Parks Dept? Why would they shun steam in the canyon but promote it in Scranton? I think its all about the been counters not wanting to spend the $$$.

[Anonymous]

Matt,

So far at least, the green movement and pollution laws are two entirely different things.  The green movement is more fashion than science, and those who believe in it take it very seriously.  It's a bandwagon that businesses are anxious to jump onto if they think it endears them with their customers.  Somebody else suggested that the green reason was an excuse or a copout as you say, and the real reason was economic.  But I am not sure why they would need an excuse to react to an economic hardship.  If steam does not make a profit, or even pay its way, it isn't going to happen.  No excuse is necessary.  They are not a charity.

I think your point about the possibility of being influenced by the parks department is very significant.  And so is your point about keeping automobiles away from the canyon.  Given that particular objective, and given that management is dedicated to being green, I predict that the ultimate conclusion is to electrify the railroad and operated new, modern LRT trains.  That's my prediction.  I expect them to announce it soon. 

[Southwest Chief]

Interesting about the "green" reason to pull the steamers.  That one never crossed my mind.

Could be a valid reason, but it seems to me more of an acceptable excuse.  The real reason for the pull of steamers is still more then likely to save operating expenses.  Also a valid reason, but one, in my mind, that greatly hurts the image of the railroad and destroys goodwill.

I agree with vsmith if the FPA's are dropped what are they going to pull the trains with?  And vsmith is also right in that at least one of the 3 F40s is a parts loco.  And a point to ponder...the remaining diesel fleet, F40s and GP7s, are not the most environmentally friendly locos either.

Perhaps a new locomotive order is in the works.  Perhaps 2-3 Gevos, or similar "cleaner" emission locomotives.  Not going to be a great tourist draw, but if they want to be green why not get the cleanest available locos on the market.  And selling 2 steam worthy locomotives might bring enough cash to help offset the new locomotive expenditure.

So the whole "green" excuse appears to be more of a cop out then a valid reason taking into consideration the relatively lax Arizona pollution laws when compared to neighboring California, my home state.  I travel and stay for extended periods throughout Northern AZ all the time.  Pollution controls are not the highest priority there.  Snow/water levels, bark beetles, and the fear of forest fire are the key concerns.

The only thing I can think of that could make the "green" decision a valid one, is that it may have been influenced by the parks department.  If this is the case then things get a lot more complicated, but the move to abandon steam starts to make more sense...at least to me.  But I would assume the park preferred what ever type of locomotive was used.  As each train, if it's popular, takes that many more vehicles out of the Canyon.  And reducing auto traffic at the Grand Canyon has been the highest priority of the park for the last several years.

F40s can be considered vintage now, and the MOW GP7s are definitely classics of the Santa Fe, but will they have the same draw to the public or as much pulling power the steamers and FPA trio had?  I mention pulling power because the train length has grown immensely in the last few years.  I personally haven't seen the F40s pull long consists on the Grand Canyon Railway.  However, knowing the talented crews at the Grand Canyon Railway, the F40s were likely rebuilt and are in better condition now then when Amtrak had them.  Although the reports of heavy maintenance crew layoffs worries me about potential future locomotive and rolling stock issues.

Sorry for the ramblings, but the idea to completely abandon steam all at once, and possibly remove the FPA's, does not make much sense to me at this point.  It might in the future, but it doesn't right now.

[lrfogle]

Wonder if 4960 will be left to "rot" or would the new owners consider some other options?  I know of a place where that loco would be well cared for!

[Anonymous]

Thanks Glen.  I had assumed that they must have made some kind of statement based on environmental reasons, based on some of the comments on other forums.  Here is a message that I posted on RPN forum:

 

When I heard this story [GC ending steam], my first suspicion was that the new ownership might be following the dictates of the green movement. And since a large part of this green trend is about perception and fashion, it is much more subjective to measure than simple dollars. It is as much about doing things that show you care as it is about doing things that can be measured.

Certainly it is true that a tourist railroad where the main attraction is scenery may not need to rely on steam locomotives to draw their customers as much a tourist railroad where the main attraction is steam. But in the perception of the green movement, not only is the scenery attraction not dependent on steam locomotives, but also it is seen as being harmed by them.

I would think that as a group, Grand Canyon visitors would be much more eco-conscious than the average of the general population, and therefore much more sensitive to anything that seems out of step with the green movement, and steam locomotives would be a preeminent example of non-green. They symbolize it.

Like other natural attractions, there is a growing desire to limit access by automobile because traffic jams, and parking lots seem incongruous and even threatening to the attraction itself. As I understand it, the GCRY plays a key role in protecting the canyon from automobile incursion. So the railroad is not just a secondary attraction, but it is also performing a green function to serve the green attraction of the canyon itself. So the primary function of this railroad is green alternative transportation, and as such, the perfect embodiment would be in the model of federally subsidized, electrified light rail transit.

[gbrewer]

Bucyrus,

The source was a response from Judi Lages, Vice President Sales & Marketing for Xanterra Parks & Resorts. I assume, since she sent a copy to Trains Magazine, that I may quote her. She said, "We want you to know that our decision was prompted by environmental considerations. The move was made to save a considerable amount of fuel and water and to reduce greenhouse gas and air pollutants associated with steam engines."

She went on to elaborate on Xanterra's awards for being green, then wrote, "We do not think it is in keeping with our environmental mission to continue operating steam engines based on the following:" There follows a long list and discussion of fuel and water consumption, lubricant spills, etc.

vsmith,

Ms. Lages did not discuss the Alcos, but given their well known exhaust production, I would expect that they will not be welcome at Xanterra either.

Still, from their web page (next to a nice shot of two of the steam crew in front of the drivers of a steam engine) it clearly states that their mission is: "To provide our valued guests with fond memories of their Grand Canyon experience - the destination, the historic journey and the people they meet along the way."

Glen Brewer

 

 

 

 

 

[vsmith]

I had not heard they were considering pulling the FPA1s as well, sheeesh! what are they going to pull the trains with? they only have 3 F40phs and the last time I was there one of them looked like a parts donor.

I agree a freight dismal on point sounds pretty well,,,,dismal. At least the FPA1s were cool to look at. It sounds to me like Xanterra simply views the train as a mass transit system to move people from the hotel to the canyon.

[Anonymous]

Glen,

Could you explain what GCRY has said about the need to be green playing a role in the discontinuance of steam?  Also, what is the source of this information?  Thanks.

[gbrewer]

I believe I am the steam fan referred to in the Trains news item.

Since my response (see below) I note that their stated mission is:

"To provide our valued guests with fond memories of their Grand Canyon experience - the destination, the historic journey and the people they meet along the way."

Below is my response to the letter from Xanterra. I encourage others to write as well. Please do not be abusive. Email may be sent to [e-mail]

Judi Lages
Vice President
Sales & Marketing
Xanterra Parks & Resorts®
6312 Fiddlers Green Circle
Suite 600 North
Greenwood Village, CO 80111

Dear Ms. Lages,

First, let me say thank you for the informative letter in response to my email. I very much appreciate your careful and informative response.

I can easily understand that Xanterra would want to maintain a green image. In general, this is certainly a good thing, especially in your business, but there are other also very important issues here to consider as well.

In addition to being a wonderful, natural scenic site, there is much of human historic interest about this park as well as many other National Parks. Those of us interested in 19th and 20th century history are fascinated by the railroad and how it influenced (actually created) the park, by the architecture, now historic too, and the people who created it, and by Max and Thelma Biegert who resurrected the railroad (at great risk and expense). 

Steam locomotives are very nearly extinct in this land. The Grand Canyon Railroad was one of the premier operators of steam in this country. While the locomotives are not original to the line, they do remind older visitors what was like, and, perhaps more important, they give younger generations a new knowledge of what the past was like. This is something very much worth preserving.

The railway was known for its arcane expertise in the care, maintenance and even improvement of steam locomotives, and the people so unfortunately now out of work were among the top members in a very small field. This too is history and knowledge being thrown out.

As to the savings in diesel fuel and water, it was my understanding that the engines were burning used (waste) crank case oil, not expensive diesel, and that the water was recycled from the sewage plant (and not otherwise usable. If this is still true, then your numbers are not being fairly compared.

Pollution, while perhaps a little greater for steam (and I’m not sure this is even true), can’t possibly be significant for such a small operation compared to all the cars arriving and departing at the park daily or to the flight of a single jet passenger airplane.

While I am glad to hear that the locomotives will be “preserved”, I find this of minor comfort. A locomotive on display, especially outdoors, will quickly deteriorate and will be subject to vandalism and theft of collectable parts. I would much prefer to hear that they were to be sold to someone who would appreciate them, care for them and use them to create a living history. My own history with the Number 4960 goes back fifty years when I used to ride behind it on the Chicago Burlington & Quincy out of Chicago. This engine is special to me, so, you see, this is of great concern.

I wonder if Max and Thelma were aware of these plans when they sold the railway to Xanterra? Would they have refused your offer had they known?

Finally, I wonder how this will impact the railroad’s business? I know I would not travel from Denver to Williams just to ride an ordinary diesel train to the canyon, which is closer to Denver than Williams anyway. Nor will I have much reason to write about the GCRy in the future.

I hope to hear in the near future that Xanterra has reconsidered this matter.

Sincerely,
Glen Brewer
Travel and Railroad Writer/Photographer
Denver

 

 

[SFbrkmn]

I just heard about this for the first time within the past few days in a chat w/ a Amtrk ticket agent who knows more on this stuff than I do. With Anschutz being the new owner, it is no surprise.. Word is 30 shop workers have been let go and the Alco PA engs may be on the way out also. Replaced w/ what, I don't know but seeing a GP40 on the point isn't exactly gonna tickle my fancy. I have ridden the GCRY twice ,but only on a diesel train. I have always said I wanted to do this is in the steam season but its not gonna happen now.Can't take anything for granted. I do plan on a return visit to Williams one of these future times, even if riding the train is not in the works. I love that town, walking around the various eating places & shops to shop or just looking up @ Bill Williams Mountain behind the town. Breathtaking. If anyone is planning on going out soon: try the Pine Country Resturaunt just one block from the depot. Great homemade cooking.

[benburch]

:-( We were planning to go there next year.

[vsmith]

I suspect it may have more to do with the costs of labor to maintain the engines, workers liability and insurance costs and the ongoing costs to keep the locomotives in daily working order. The bottom line keeping a steam engine in working order can be very expensive in all these catagories. There was also talk that the steam engine was due for a costly major overhaul. Sad if thats the case, that the new owners are more concerned about the bottom line dollars then the value of having real steam engines working the line as a tourist magnet. I would have thought they would have tried to find some middle ground instead of such a Draconian action.

[Anonymous]

I have not heard any official explanation as to the reason for the suspension of steam or whether it is permanent.  I have heard lots of speculation from the public, but apparently the management of GCRR has issued no statement of explanation.  I would think that they would make a statement because the ending of steam will surely have some kind of impact on their market.  However, I would not speculate as to what that impact might be.  It seems to me that the overall attraction is the combination of two more or less unrelated attractions, so it would be hard to know how much the operation of steam contributes to the draw.  Somebody on this forum must know of marketing surveys done by GCRR that would answer this question.

Also, I would tend to conclude that if they don't issue an explanation, the suspension is intended to be permanent.

[vsmith]

I read on another forum, GCRR has a new owner, a Mr. Anschutz ?, and the RR has decided to permanently cease is steam operations and has apparently already layed off several shop personel:

GCRR

This is bad news as the RR was a fun trip. I dont know the reasons behind the cease in steam operations, maybe someone here has heard more information.

I wonder how viable the line will be without the steamers, they were always a huge part of their marketing and PR campaigns. I sure hope the  new owner doesnt screw with the other things that are nice about the line like the first class dome car service. I know unless theres some other draw or improvements planned like maybe increased luxury service in the cars or ?, I doubt I would go all the way there just to be pulled around by a couple of F40PHs.

I wonder where the steam roster will end up?