Various threads across the net have detailed the success that is the construction of the 'Tornado'. I have nothing but admiration for our fellow foamers across the pond for doing what the 'experts' said was impossible. Question is, if they can do it, why can't we?
Regards, Burlington John
PS - Sign me up for a CB&Q M4 clone ...
THE site for American Freedom Train fans http://www.freedomtrain.org
John,
From the web link I saw a few days ago, it is basically a copy of an exisiting 'Peppercorn' class steam engine. There is no 'new' technology here, just a lot of dedicated work to reproduce the engine.
That said; if some group wanted to build a NYC J-3 'Hudson'(as there are no preseved originals), it would be well recieved in the railfan community. Of course, who is going to fund it would be another subject!
Jim Bernier
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
The other half of the question - If you did build a new steam locomotive (hopefully not to a design that was obsolete fifty years ago) what would you do with it.
If the object is to build something for static display, I don't doubt that a reasonable representation of a NYC J-3 could be built of wood, tin and fiberglas for about the price of an eighteen wheeler. If I had that kind of money I'd invest it in something more useful - like an eighteen wheeler.
Chuck
Tornado will be used on preserved railways but will also be used out on the mainline on specials. Could a locomotive not do similar work in the US? As for getting access to the mainline the commercial railway is a busy place and space comes at a premium if at all. There are safety, reliability and practical considerations but they are all overcome on a regular basis which allows steam to be a fairly common feature on our railway network.
As for funding I beleive that Tornado was mainly funded by subscription. If there is a will there is a way
kevin1978 wrote: Tornado will be used on preserved railways but will also be used out on the mainline on specials. Could a locomotive not do similar work in the US? As for getting access to the mainline the commercial railway is a busy place and space comes at a premium if at all. There are safety, reliability and practical considerations but they are all overcome on a regular basis which allows steam to be a fairly common feature on our railway network. As for funding I beleive that Tornado was mainly funded by subscription. If there is a will there is a way
No. And by that, Yes it could. But the mainline roads used to do Steam Specials. CSX, NS (both from Southern and from N&W as I understand it) and they dropped them for various reasons I don;t know. There was even serious research done by Chessie into revamping 614 as a vaible freight engine too. That made it as far as the door though. The British Railways aren't the same as ours are. History and ingenuity are far beyond what we have, (Chunnel. Need I say more?) as well as the distances between cities.One of the issues is water. Water Towers are extinct. And when you have a steam ebngine with no water, you have a disaster weaiting to happen. Even if the engine is oil burning, you still need the water. And dare I say it, the average British citizen shows more toward the train. it was after all their invention. To the American, it's a tool, moreso than to the british chaps.
-Morgan
The other one is maintenence. Steamers are on 15yer total stripping. The rrs probabl;y don;t want en engine that has to be down for months regularly.
sound familiar? If yyou model Tranisition, this topic should.
kevin1978 wrote:yes water is a really big issue. No rail system has the facilities for watering, or servicing in general, steam these days. It is something that really needs thought through to work around.
Flashwave wrote:One of the issues is water. Water Towers are extinct. And when you have a steam ebngine with no water, you have a disaster weaiting to happen.
Flashwave wrote:The other one is maintenence. Steamers are on 15yer total stripping...
The other one is maintenence. Steamers are on 15yer total stripping...
Yeah, but it's been several years. And I've seen the Daylight's Auxiallary. But I don't think the Fire Department would want to regularly, daily, be hauling water for a single steam loco. Even the Aux. Runs dry.
15 year: Technically caleld the boiler tube refit. But I've heard it called a total teardown by two seperate sources. Government says every 15 years to pull the steamer apart and replece anything thqat could be fatigued and or go boom. Such as has to be done to NKP 587
Keep in mind the Tornado was a major undertaking, which started around 1990 IIRC. Construction went at a real snail's pace, sometimes because of problems with the engine and sometimes with a shortage of funds.
Remember too that the UK is much more steam oriented than we are. A much higher percentage of steam engines were preserved there, partly because steam lasted a decade or so later. Plus steam is used more frequently there, even some regular trains sometimes have steam used on them like in the summer months. So they have the infrastructure to support steam that the US doesn't.
Would be nice to see a new NYC Hudson, or Milwaukee Hiawatha 4-4-2 though.
Stix, if you can't hold your breath for that Hudson or 4-4-2 to appear, and are willing to settle for a ride behind an "original" ex- Soo Line 0-6-0 steam switcher #353, you are welcome to come on over to the WESTERN MINNESOTA STEAM THRESHER'S REUNION, at Rollag, MN on Labor Day weekend...Only 15 minutes off I94... Don't come for just one day; It takes at least three days to even "glance" at all the working displays..
See ya there, BDT ,,yes bring a camera,,,,won't need a picnic basket; lots of good, old fashioned hospitality as far as food stands,, and lots of spots for campers..
BDT in Minnesota wrote: Stix, if you can't hold your breath for that Hudson or 4-4-2 to appear, and are willing to settle for a ride behind an "original" ex- Soo Line 0-6-0 steam switcher #353, you are welcome to come on over to the WESTERN MINNESOTA STEAM THRESHER'S REUNION, at Rollag, MN on Labor Day weekend...Only 15 minutes off I94... Don't come for just one day; It takes at least three days to even "glance" at all the working displays..See ya there, BDT ,,yes bring a camera,,,,won't need a picnic basket; lots of good, old fashioned hospitality as far as food stands,, and lots of spots for campers..
Does sound good, but "15 minutes off I94" would only be after driving for 3-4 hours on I94...I'm southeast of the Twin Cities, between St.Paul and Prescott WI. I do have a ticket for the Milwaukee 261 "circle tour" next month - down the Milwaukee Road (Minnesota) side of the Mississippi, cross over near LaCrosse to the Wisconsin side and come up the Burlington side back to the cities.
marknewton wrote: No, you just water the loco from a hydrant, a fire truck, or an auxilliary tender/water tank. I'll guess that you have never seen a modern day steam loco being serviced?Mark.
You could never do that in the desert where towns are hundred of miles apart and no water is available close to the railroad. North American railroads decided long ago that the manpower required to maintain a steam engine is not economically viable, and having to go back now and rebuild all of the support infrastructure would be cost prohibitive in spite of any advances in steam locomotive technology. That's probably one of the main considerations that quashed Ross Rowland's American Coal Enterprises project.
Hello,
may I add for you interest the following link to a German factory that rebuilds and builds completly new parts for steam-engines, including boilers. As far as I know, they have the capacatiy to virtually built every steam engine from the scratch. English site is available!
http://www.dampflokwerk.de/
For Selector:
I have the "3985 and Heavy Freight" video, where the engine is filled up by a hydrand on service stops in Nebraska.
This particular engine and Nr.-844 also have up to 2 aux. water-tanks, rebuilt by ex-turbine-tenders.
Can't tell you the available range with this setup, but I assume it is good enough for crossing the "dessert"
Kind Regards
Lars
But it still seems impractical to drag around a canteen car or four for anything but the buisness/special excoursions.
Lars: I believe Selector was being retorical, and a specially built plant in Germany doesn't help fpor anywhere but Germany. You know how many stamps it takes to mail a steam locomotive?
(That's a joke, but you get the idea)
While I know steam probably isn't coming back and there are numerous reasons for it, here's a "what if" scenario to discuss.
Why would a new steam engine have to be reciprocating? In other words why couldn't we just replace the diesel engine with a small steam engine to spin a generator? Of course there are other things to consider of course but this way you wouldn't need to design and build new engines rather than refit current older diesels.
Flashwave wrote:Yeah, but it's been several years. And I've seen the Daylight's Auxiallary. But I don't think the Fire Department would want to regularly, daily, be hauling water for a single steam loco.
Yeah, but it's been several years. And I've seen the Daylight's Auxiallary. But I don't think the Fire Department would want to regularly, daily, be hauling water for a single steam loco.
15 year: Technically caleld the boiler tube refit. But I've heard it called a total teardown by two seperate sources. Government says every 15 years to pull the steamer apart and replece anything thqat could be fatigued and or go boom.
Lars, thanks for your observations. As Flashwave surmises, I was being rhetorical, because anyone who follows present-day steam operations knows that engine tenders are replenished by prior agreement or contract with providers of any number of types along the rights of way where excursions are conducted. I have been behind a steamer that was replenished using a fire-hose running from a pasture irrigation system. Fire hydrants abound all over the world, and there must be one within 25m somewhere along the route before the tender runs dry where an agreement could be secured with an authority or owner to refill the tender.
Where there is a will, there is a way. If we were to return to steam locomotives, no matter what the final drive comprised, or its manner of receiving rotational energy, we would do as was done 160 years ago; build what must be in place so that the corporation receives revenue as intended. Water towers, sanding towers, roundhouses, turntables, stationary plants, washracks, cinder pits, coaling towers....they didn't exist until their need was realized, and here we are with their use long since past. But, not before they were a sound investment for nearly a century.
cacole wrote: marknewton wrote: No, you just water the loco from a hydrant, a fire truck, or an auxiliary tender/water tank. I'll guess that you have never seen a modern day steam loco being serviced?Mark.You could never do that in the desert where towns are hundred of miles apart and no water is available close to the railroad.
marknewton wrote: No, you just water the loco from a hydrant, a fire truck, or an auxiliary tender/water tank. I'll guess that you have never seen a modern day steam loco being serviced?Mark.
You could never do that in the desert where towns are hundred of miles apart and no water is available close to the railroad.
North American railroads decided long ago that the manpower required to maintain a steam engine is not economically viable, and having to go back now and rebuild all of the support infrastructure would be cost prohibitive in spite of any advances in steam locomotive technology.
selector wrote:How do they water UP's excursion steamers today? They operate in the "desert"...if such an obstacle really presents itself as such for a steamer today.
Flashwave wrote:Lars: I believe Selector was being retorical, and a specially built plant in Germany doesn't help fpor anywhere but Germany.
fredswain wrote:Why would a new steam engine have to be reciprocating? In other words why couldn't we just replace the diesel engine with a small steam engine to spin a generator? Of course there are other things to consider of course but this way you wouldn't need to design and build new engines rather than refit current older diesels.
marknewton wrote: selector wrote:How do they water UP's excursion steamers today? They operate in the "desert"...if such an obstacle really presents itself as such for a steamer today.Crandell, it's no obstacle, just a matter of good logistics.Cheers,Mark.
Yes, and not at all unlike an army. A General taking ground who outruns his fuel, bullets, and meals is going to be court martialled if he doesn't get captured. Railways must have had similar logistical problems as they took ground. They do it when climbing Everest, as well. Staging, altitude camps, water towers...alla same.
Why start from scratch? there are dozens of great steam candidates rotting on display across the country that are really only handicapped by the fact that there boilers are no longer certifiable.
Every locomotive restoration I have read about , the drivetrain, chassis, pushrods, etc, are often the easy part to restore, its the cost of boiler inspection, repair, restoration and certification that put the kaputs on most attempts to restore locomotives.
If the Germans can replace any boiler, that could cut significantly what often the most serious obsticle to returning a steam locomotive to service. If I was running a tourist or museum line, this would be something I would seriously consider as an option, live steam engines are a tremendous draw for museum lines and a brand new certified boiler will last far longer than any restored old boiler.
Have fun with your trains
When the San Bernardino RR Historical Society ran the #3751 out to Williams Az. a few years ago, they had local Fire Departments water the loco with their pumper trucks. But a simple semi truck pulling a water tanker w/ pumper is all thats necessary. Same goes for fuel, most live steamers today are oil burners, so a semi truck/trailer can supply fuel. its all about making sure they are waiting for the loco when it pulls into its designated stop.
This of course is not an issue if its on a tourist or museum line.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.