Looking at at an album of steam locomotives, it occurred to me that Winter operations in the far north or on days of temperatures well below freezing must have presented problems with keeping needed water from freezing. Water towers would presumably be frozen as would trackside delivery pipes.
Dating from the 1850's through the mid-20th Century, when temperatures were below freezing for sustained periods, how did railroads maintain a supply of liquid water when needed by their steam locomotives?
How did they prevent water from freezing in the tender?
Freezing water was a problem even for ships at sea. FWIW and hours before it met its destiny, Titanic's watch officers were concerned that fresh water tanks aboard the ship might freeze.
RJ Emery near Santa Fe, NM
Mr_Ash wrote:http://cs.trains.com/forums/1428325/ShowPost.aspx
With all due respect, that thread doesn't address all my questions.
When the Central Pacific and Union Pacific were building the first American transcontinental (1863-1869), they continued to lay track all through the Winter. In the mountains, freezing water had to be a continual problem, and they certainly did not have the niceties found in steam operations of the 20th Century. Ditto for the Canadian Pacific pushing through the Rockies in 1881-1885.
rjemery wrote: Mr_Ash wrote:http://cs.trains.com/forums/1428325/ShowPost.aspx With all due respect, that thread doesn't address all my questions.When the Central Pacific and Union Pacific were building the first American transcontinental (1863-1869), they continued to lay track all through the Winter. In the mountains, freezing water had to be a continual problem, and they certainly did not have the niceties found in steam operations of the 20th Century. Ditto for the Canadian Pacific pushing through the Rockies in 1881-1885.
No - they did not lay track all winter. CP did a lot of tunneling in the winters and UP worked as late as possible but both experienced winter shutdowns.
Water, winter or summer, was a major concern for both roads. Their surveyers looked for year round sources of water including springs, rivers, and wells. While the surface water may freeze - most of these will have running water all winter long. The locomotives at Golden Spike are exact replicas of the 1869 engines. They each have steam lines to preheat the water to the crosshead pumps and there is a provision for a steam line to the tender. Most of the pumps in that time were steam powered and the local source of steam would also be used to keep tanks and plumbing operational in very cold weather. Water tanks of that time were all wood tanks - even the railroad tank cars were wood tanks and wood has some insulating value. In short, freezing water was a problem but not an unsolvable, continuing problem.
dd
dldance wrote:No - they did not lay track all winter. CP did a lot of tunneling in the winters and UP worked as late as possible but both experienced winter shutdowns.
Have you a reference for that?
Both roads only got paid for track laid, and they needed a steady stream of income from the US Government to continue to finance the venture.
It's time I reread Stephen Ambrose's 1999 book Nothing Like It In the World: The Men Who Built the Transcontinental Railroad 1863-1869.
I'm curious now about the obstacles faced by Canadian Pacific two decades later when building through the Rockies to Vancouver, BC.
Mostly it was the changes in elevation and snow sheds and bridges across ravines with fast mountain streams.
The Mountain Creek bridge had over 2M board feet of timbers, and was the largest on the CPR lines.
The grade to Kicking Horse Pass was granted a temporary permission to be at 4.5%, completed in 1884. Roger's Pass was almost as bad. At Kicking Horse, there were originally three safety switches manned full-time. The switches had to be thrown to allow a train descending the grade to continue along the mains. If the attendant judged that a train was not in control upon approach, he was to leave the switch open and cause the train to stray off into a climbing spur until it coasted to a stop. Doubling was a frequent event on such grades.
By the way, water tanks holding several thousands of gallons that sit partly in the ground will not freeze. The ground's heat will not allow freeezing. This was demonstrated to some of us by engineers who built water storage headwater tanks at a concentrator where my Dad was the General Manager many years ago. Despite the altitude, near 1800m, and winter daytime highs of minus 4 degrees Celsius (down to -15 at night), they never had freeze-up problems. Of course, the lines had to be wrapped and buried.
selector,
Even if CP used partially buried water tanks in the 19th Century, the water still had to be pumped into the engine, tender and passenger cars (assuming it was potable). Those pumps would be above ground and subject to freezing. Winter lasts a long time in the Canadian Rockies. Even in Summer, nighttime temperatures frequently dip below freezing. I agree running water can be found in the mountains even in the extreme depths of Winter, but a free flowing stream frequently isn't located where it would be needed to supply railroad operations.
If there wasnt anywhere to get water they would bring water car's
Mr_Ash wrote:If there wasnt anywhere to get water they would bring water car's
Which could freeze before their contents could be used. Remember, we are talking 19th Century here, long before there were electric heaters.
With all due respect, I still do not think any contributor herein -- all well meaning -- have properly identified how water was kept liquid during the Deep Winter for use in steam locomotives and passenger trains along the Central Pacific, Union Pacific, Great Northern, Canadian Pacific, etc, during the 19th Century.
rrboomer wrote:One example of an enclosed water tank for winter operations. This one located at Glenboro, Manitoba on CP.
A thickly insulated water tower would probably work, but I still remain skeptical. I've been in the Canadian Rockies in Deep Winter. I know how cold it can get for sustained periods.
Fire wood would have been plentiful, and at stations, they could have had heated tanks for hot water that circulated with the cold water in towers. Switchmen at turnouts for runaway locomotives had to keep warm somehow.
Next time I read about CP's early operations in the Rockies, I will keep my eyes peeled for how they dealt with maintaining liquid water under the most trying conditions.
The key point is there was frequent turnover in the water tank: water going out to a steam engine tender, water replacing it. A 20,000 gallon tank, which is pretty good sized tank, dispensing into 20% full 5,000 gallon tenders turns over completely after five locomotives have passed it. Groundwater comes out of the ground at some temperature above freezing -- even in the coldest climates the temperature is several degrees above freezing -- and flows into a tank that contains a very large volume of water with a great deal of turbidity.
Only on branch lines and secondaries with very low traffic volume, in the very coldest climates, and at water tanks that for reasons of operation had very low useage, and thus had poor turnover, required heating. Most tanks in Colorado, Wyoming, Idaho, Utah, Nevada, and Oregon had no auxiliary heating whatsoever. Standpipes and tank spouts were self-draining to avoid freezing up. The most vulnerable portion of the water distribution system was the riser pipe from ground to tank, as it had the smallest volume and worst ratio of surface-to-volume, and it was heavily insulated.
Wherever practical tanks were gravity fed, which was quite often feasible if the topography was sufficiently vertical or by artesian wells. Tanks that were pump-fed required a pump, and that apparatus would be contained in a shed, powered by steam until circa 1910 and gasoline thereafter and in both cases a stove stoked by the pumpman sufficed to keep the pump from freezing up. In the 1920s in hard-water regions, water treatment plants were constructed, usually powered by electricity, and heated by electricity, oil, or coal. But still the water in the tank itself was not heated except in the very coldest climates.
Here's a map of average groundwater temperatures in the U.S.:
http://www.noritz.com/u/US_ground_temperature%5B1%5D.pdf
The only problem I have ever experienced in cold weather was the hatch on the tender freezing shut. I have run engines in below zero temperatures without any trouble with freezing water in the water column or tender or any steam lines.
In fact, the injectors work better when the water is colder than when it is warmer. If it is necessary to warm up the tender water or thaw out the supply pipe from the tender to the injector all one has to do is turn steam back into the hose and it will quickly thaw out. It is necessary to drain the main reservoir and air lines a little more often because really cold weather causes water to condense in the lines a little faster. But over all, operation of a locomotive is similar in all types of weather except for the layers of clothing required to do one's job without freezing.
rjemery wrote:How did they prevent water from freezing in the tender?
marknewton wrote:Water in the tender doesn't freeze, even in the worst winter conditions. It gets used up and replaced long before it gets a chance to freeze.
Perhaps in normal operations in the 20th century. But what of a Central Pacific train in the 1870's snowbound in the Sierras? Or a Canadian Pacific train a decade later snowbound in the Rockies?
I am convinced water freezing in tenders was a problem and am unsure of the steps taken by operations personnel at that early time to deal with it, particularly with idling and stranded locomotives.
rjemery wrote: marknewton wrote:Water in the tender doesn't freeze, even in the worst winter conditions. It gets used up and replaced long before it gets a chance to freeze.Perhaps in normal operations in the 20th century. But what of a Central Pacific train in the 1870's snowbound in the Sierras? Or a Canadian Pacific train a decade later snowbound in the Rockies?I am convinced water freezing in tenders was a problem and am unsure of the steps taken by operations personnel at that early time to deal with it, particularly with idling and stranded locomotives.
cprted wrote:CPR steam locomotives ...
To which CPR do you refer -- Central Pacific or Canadian Pacific?
I'm not sure why you think that winter operations in the 19th century were fundamentally different than those of the 20th when it came to keeping tender water from freezing.
I would presume that with the passing decades ingenuity and innovation would have prevailed to make the task less of an issue. The air brake was invented in 1872, about the same time that Elijah McCoy invented the automatic lubricator. No doubt a stream of inventions contributed to the evolution of the steam locomotive and its operation including addressing the issue of water freezing in the tender or in trackside towers.
As JonathonS related, the Reading built their water towers enclosed and the tank elevated so a small fire could be kept burning underneath during deep Winter. They would not have done so if the water didn't freeze.
I am now rethinking how narrow gauge operations in Winter in the high mountain areas of the American West were carried out, were timber and mining operations continued almost non- stop.
rjemery wrote: cprted wrote:CPR steam locomotives ...To which CPR do you refer -- Central Pacific or Canadian Pacific?
I think you're looking for complicated answers to a rather simple problem. For tenders, frequent turnover, sloshing action, and steam lines would have kept the water flowing. In water towers, turnover, insulation, and a wood stove. I'm not a chemist, but you have to remember we're talking about huge volumes of water here. Its going to take quite some time for a 5,000 gallon tender to freeze up, even if it is sitting unattended.
cprted wrote:I think you're looking for complicated answers to a rather simple problem. For tenders, frequent turnover, sloshing action, and steam lines would have kept the water flowing. In water towers, turnover, insulation, and a wood stove. I'm not a chemist, but you have to remember we're talking about huge volumes of water here. Its going to take quite some time for a 5,000 gallon tender to freeze up, even if it is sitting unattended.
Chemist possibly, thermodynamicist most definitely. The most modern example of steam operations in cold temperatures is the Durango & Silverton. Next time I am out that way, I will have to ask. They run trips just about every day of the year.
China still uses steam, but I am not sure what operations continue in cold climes. Most of the northern lines seem to be serviced by diesel or electric. Besides, I don't speak Chinese.
As I am fascinated by railroad history, understanding all aspects of rail operations is of some interest, regardless of how minor it may appear to be.
rjemery wrote: marknewton wrote:Water in the tender doesn't freeze, even in the worst winter conditions. It gets used up and replaced long before it gets a chance to freeze.Perhaps in normal operations in the 20th century.
Perhaps in normal operations in the 20th century.
But what of a Central Pacific train in the 1870's snowbound in the Sierras? Or a Canadian Pacific train a decade later snowbound in the Rockies?
rjemery wrote: The most modern example of steam operations in cold temperatures is the Durango & Silverton. Next time I am out that way, I will have to ask...
The most modern example of steam operations in cold temperatures is the Durango & Silverton. Next time I am out that way, I will have to ask...
China still uses steam, but I am not sure what operations continue in cold climes.
Some years back, while the Rio Grande was still operating what is now the Cumbres and Toltec Scenic Railroad, a 2-8-2 got stranded in a blizzard. The crew kept themselves (and the locomotive) from freezing by maintaining a banked fire in the firebox until rescue arrived. They then opened the drain valves on the loco and tender, quenched the fire with a few buckets of water and abandoned the loco. It was finally pulled out, and the line reopened, several weeks later.
So, if there was a real probability that a locomotive might freeze, it would be drained rather than be left to freeze up and split seams. Except in dire emergency, there would never be a valid reason to let an active locomotive cool off.
Chuck
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