Steam Myth or fact? Passed this one on to the Discovery Channel...

[Anonymous]

Years ago, Chet Huntley wrote an autobiography about growing up in Montana.  He must have been a railroad buff, because I remember him specifically talking about the Great Northern rail road bringing out a brand new steam locomotive to his hometown (which I think was Butte, Montana.)

If I remember the incident correctly, he says the railroad issued white gloves to the ladies present in the crowd.  They were invited to push gently on the locomotive... and voila! it moved!

I believe he stated that it was a Northern type steamer.

Questions:

1) Was this possible?  I suppose if you put 500 women on anything, they will move the world...or convince their husbands to do it.  I don't know the size of the crowd...

2) Would this be possible to do on say, the UP Challenger?  I can't think of anything actually running out there that is of similar size or weight as a Northern...

3) Not steam related... but I wonder if you could do the same thing with a modern diesel.

I submitted this question as a program idea for Mythbusters, just because I'd like to see it done.

But I'd like to see if anyone else out there has actually seen this miracle of bearing and lubrication actually happen.

Thanks!

[selector]

I don't have the links and details at my fingertips, sorry, but I have seen clippings and information on the www showing four or five ladies shoving against a locomotive with a view to getting it underway.  I believe it was possible with finer balances and bearings since wheel on rail/steel on steel friction is very small.   Had the drivers on locomotives been rubber, it would have been a different story.  The resultant compression/resistance would have forced a bulldozer to do the job (maybe).

It was a publicity stunt, good physics and engineering, and pretty women.  Nothing has changed.

I have seen World's Strongest Man type competitions where the brutes will pull a 747 (with rubber tires..) and one instance where the person pulled a diesel.

The heavier the engine, the more compression there will be on a given number of weight-bearing tires, even if they are steel.  So, I can't say how easy it would be to move a Challenger over a 747, but my money would be on the Challenger.

[oltmannd]

I don't have the links and details at my fingertips, sorry, but I have seen clippings and information on the www showing four or five ladies shoving against a locomotive with a view to getting it underway.  I believe it was possible with finer balances and bearings since wheel on rail/steel on steel friction is very small.   Had the drivers on locomotives been rubber, it would have been a different story.  The resultant compression/resistance would have forced a bulldozer to do the job (maybe).

It was a publicity stunt, good physics and engineering, and pretty women.  Nothing has changed.

I have seen World's Strongest Man type competitions where the brutes will pull a 747 (with rubber tires..) and one instance where the person pulled a diesel.

The heavier the engine, the more compression there will be on a given number of weight-bearing tires, even if they are steel.  So, I can't say how easy it would be to move a Challenger over a 747, but my money would be on the Challenger.

Could it have been Timken 1111?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timken_1111

There is some mention of publicity stunts along these lines.....

[timz]

this miracle of bearing and lubrication

No miracle, as long as we don't know how level the track was. If they moved it, and then moved it the other way...

[Semper Vaporo]

Photo of 3 young ladies pulling the Timken Four Aces

http://www.railway-technology.com/contractors/attachments/timken/timken1.html

 

[Anonymous]

 Go to

 files.asme.org/ASMEORG/Communities/History/Landmarks/5609.pdf

Engine N&W 611 could be pulled by 2 or 3 people with a rope (with released brakes of course).  I do not know if its still possible at the "Virginia Museum Of Transportation".

Should be possible with any other modern Northern (FEF-3 for example) too, even with no Roller-Bearings on the Side-Rods like the later built "J"s. For a Challenger take 4-5 people ;-)

By the way, did the N&W Class A and B&O EM-1 ever had  Side-Rod-Roller-Bearings?

Best Regards

Lars

 

[dredmann]

As you may have gleaned, the key is ROLLER bearings. A steam locomotive with roller bearings on all of its axles and rods is not a difficult thing to push, at least on fairly level (or downhill!) track. The Timken demonstration was in part a stunt, but it showed a valuable point--roller-bearing equipped locomotives would roll very freely, required less routine lubrication and maintenance, and could pull more. (I seem to recall that roller bearings increased a locomotives, I forget which, tractive effort or tonnage rating or both, about 20%.)

As a compare-and-contrast, some friends of mine had to push a friction-bearing 2-8-2 a short distance over fairly level track. This wasn't a rusted-out static display, but a locomotive that had been running earlier in the day. About a dozen men had a hard time pushing it, but were just able to do so.

[timz]

They were invited to push gently on the locomotive... and voila! it moved!

I believe he stated that it was a Northern type steamer.

Did he really say a gentle push?

Even if the engine were utterly frictionless, its inertia would require you to lean on it for several seconds before it would move noticeably. On level track, that is.

[marknewton]

If the engine has roller bearings, one bloke with a pinch bar can move it easily. We used to do this regularly at my old depot at Eveleigh when we wanted to set valves, or adjust the radial buffer wedge.

I agree with the other posters, it was most likely the Timken demonstrator engine 1111 that was referenced.

Cheers,

Mark.

[dehusman]

The same dynamics that allows a 100 ton locomotive to move 5000 tons of train allows several hundred pounds of people to move several hundred tons of locomotive.

Behold the reason railroads exist.

Dave H.

[rogruth]

I have seen an old film,possibly an old Ripleys' Believe It or Not of Charles Atlas,a 1930's and '40's

strong man pulling a steam loco by himself.This was authenticated several times in

newsreels,magazines and newspapers.The loco and tender were equipped with roller bearings.

You know if one man can move a loco several women can move/change anything that they want. 

[MichaelSol]

Years ago, Chet Huntley wrote an autobiography about growing up in Montana.  He must have been a railroad buff, because I remember him specifically talking about the Great Northern rail road bringing out a brand new steam locomotive to his hometown (which I think was Butte, Montana.)

His hometown was Saco, Montana on the other end of the state, a Great Northern town named in the usual Great Northern fashion: spin a globe and point a finger -- in that case, Saco, Maine. The town drilled its own natural gas wells and supplies the town through its municipal system at an extremely cheap rate. I knew Chet, he was quite a Montana boy.

[BigJim]

By the way, did the N&W Class A and B&O EM-1 ever had  Side-Rod-Roller-Bearings?

Yes, the last five N&W Class A's had roller bearing rods.

[Anonymous]

Thank you for the info, BigJim!

To correct my earlier post, have a look at Youtube and search for

"611 J locomotive being pulled" and "The Iron Horse Tug of War 0ct 27,2007".

It was done as a part of contest at the "Museum of Transport."

10 people pulled the "J". That is more than 2-3 people as I predicted before, but consider it stood long time statically and maybe needs a bit of servicing.

Regards

Lars

[Kurn]

I've read 3 men could push an EM-1 with the cylinder cocks open on level ground.The B&O called them "yard creepers".

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the responses.  Now you've gone and raised a bunch of other questions with this "myth".

1) What is the heaviest steam locomotive still in operation? I think it's the Challenger out in Cheyenne- but I'm not sure.  The reason I ask is because were the myth to be tested today, I would want to see it done using something so big, so implausible to common sense, that viewers will be amazed and amused.  And I can feed my railfan addiction for free.  I think that it would be a fair test to use a big steam locomotive- the biggest- that was regularly maintained and operated by professionals.  Does Steamtown have anything bigger?  Or is there anything heavier in operation overseas?

2) Can you push a modern diesel locomotive by hand?  The consensus of opinion here says, sure, they are all equipped with roller bearings.  But there's a bit more to it than that.  Aren't the traction motors mechanically linked into the drive axles?  To get a modern locomotive to move by hand, would you not have to overcome the resistance offered by the traction motors as well?  This assuming that the locomotive is NOT running and the brakes are off... which I think would be a fair test.  I know that diesel locomotives are capable of "running away", but it seems to me that in every instance, the locomotives were "on" and "running" to start with.

3) For the physics people out there-  if you can "push" a locomotive into motion, can you "stop" the locomotive the same way?  I am not a physicist, but Newton's laws and inertia must come into play here somewhere.  OK, I fell asleep in the High School science class, so I admit my ignorance.

4) The Discovery Channel folks claim they "tested" the myth of "coin chocks" by sticking a nickel behind every wheel of a freight train, including the locomotives.  I think they were talking about actually keeping a train under power from moving, not keeping a locomotive in place. They agree that you can keep a boxcar in place by chains in front of and behind the wheels, but that's not the myth- it's a single dime (or a pair of them) can be used as a "chock" to keep a locomotive from rolling away.

Thanks!

 

 

[Anonymous]

1)

It is the Challenger. The N&W 1218, if put in operation again, is a little bit smaller and lighter. 

I share your addiction... '92, while staying in the US, I visited "Big Al" at the Henry Ford Museum, Detroit. If you stay in front of it, you can't believe this thing is able to move itself, its so massive...and yet, it was so fine engineered to go 70mph or pull 15000tons! And same, as the "J", could be pulled by... any volunteers? Nowhere overseas were similiar sized steamengines being used again. The weight difference in  general between US und outside engines was around 200t - 400t.

 

lars 

[J. Edgar]

Don Ball Jr's Decade of the Trains;the 1940's shows a NYC publisit photo of 4 ladies pulling Niagra #6001....the purpose was to show the easy rolling quality of Timkins bearings....Pathe Newsreels filmed it and showed it in over 11,000 theaters in 1945...i cant site copy but i recall seeing numerous pictures of this and that being pulled by various ladies and gentlemen

[fluff]

decade of the trains.....page 257, "four lasses pull the new locomotive at harmon, new york, to demonstrate the easy rolling qualities of the timkin roller bearings. pathe newsreels motion picture  of the event was shown in over eleven thousand movie theaters"

loco is niagra 6001.... 

[marknewton]

Thanks for the responses.  Now you've gone and raised a bunch of other questions with this "myth".

1) What is the heaviest steam locomotive still in operation? I think it's the Challenger out in Cheyenne...Or is there anything heavier in operation overseas?

The Challenger would be the heaviest operable steamer in the world today, by a comfortable margin.

2) Can you push a modern diesel locomotive by hand?  The consensus of opinion here says, sure, they are all equipped with roller bearings.  But there's a bit more to it than that.  Aren't the traction motors mechanically linked into the drive axles?  To get a modern locomotive to move by hand, would you not have to overcome the resistance offered by the traction motors as well?

I've never tried it, but again I have moved dead diesels with a pinch bar. The traction motors are geared to the axles with a simple crown and pinion wheel arrangement. With the engine shut down, the resistance of the traction motors themselves is minimal, as there is no magnetic field to contend with, only the rolling resistance of the armature and suspension bearings. Maybe one night when it's quiet at work I might try it , and see what happens!

4) The Discovery Channel folks claim they "tested" the myth of "coin chocks" by sticking a nickel behind every wheel of a freight train, including the locomotives.  I think they were talking about actually keeping a train under power from moving, not keeping a locomotive in place. They agree that you can keep a boxcar in place by chains in front of and behind the wheels, but that's not the myth- it's a single dime (or a pair of them) can be used as a "chock" to keep a locomotive from rolling away.

I've seen instances where even chocks haven't stopped a diesel from rolling way unattended, so I doubt that a few coins would stop one. The track in a typical engine terminal is often not that good - the difference in height between the rail heads at a low joint can be greater than the thickness of a coin, but that still doesn't prevent them from rolling away. But I might try that one, too!

Cheers,

Mark.

[arkansasrailfan]

Possible that the engine had roller bearings. Timken had a demonstration with a northern equpped with rollers, and 20 women pulled the engine. it was during the 40s.

[arkansasrailfan]

I have pushed a handcar, bymyself upgrade. It ain't fun.
But I used my shoe as a brake on the car. Very, very effective (more)than a wood one.
By the way, the monte carlo in LV is burning.

[Anonymous]

I seriously doubt the ability of humans leaning on a rope or cable could move a steam locomotive at all, friction of the piston & valve gear would be a factor, besides the law of physics getting all that weight to just move an inch, I used to unload railroad boxcars, we could barely move them with a large truck, however once you got the thing moving it would slowly, very slowly roll quite a distance. I am sure that the picture with the young ladies was not shown from another side or end with the pinch bar (or  2) or the engineer gently notching out the engine, this was advertising you know. Maybe the mythbusters will figure it out.

[KayBee]

Definitely possible.

Despite not having been fired since 1995, some folks at the Virginia Museum of Transportation were pulling N&W J #611 around for a Special Olympics fundraiser in October. I was not pulling but I did get to watch! No gimmicks.

 Check out the VMT Blog - http://vmtmusings.blogspot.com/2007_11_01_archive.html

 

[stmtrolleyguy]

Hmmmm. . .

This is bringing up some interesting questions.

1.  I wonder if the wheel diameter of the rail vehicle you're trying to move has any effect on how easy it is to get moving.  The larger diameter the wheel, the slower the actual axle will turn compared to how fast the locomotive is going (a loco with 72 inch drivers will turn the axle, and the bearing, slower then a 48 inch drivered steam locomotive would when moving at the same speed - say walking at 1 mph.)  I'm not sure what this does to the physics on the locomotive.

2.  Aren't steam locomotive wheels weight-balanced to counteract the force of the drive gear pounding down on the wheel?  With no steam, wouldn't the weights work in reverse, asuming you could get them turning?

3.  I've seen boy scouts pull one of our small single trucked trolleys around before, and I've pushed streetcar trucks around by hand before too.  Once it starts to roll, the rest is easy.  (The only hard part about stopping is how to not get run over by the car in the process, or how to get to the back end where you can pull on it to stop w/o letting the car run away from you.)

4.  When the museum I volunteer at does our christmas runs, we use a roller-bearing car most of the time, with a standard waste-packed bearing car handling busy runs.  There's no difference in the way the roller-bearing car rolls in the winter when the oil thickens.  The waste-packed car doesn't roll very well at all.

[wjstix]

According to Frank King, when the first Missabe 2-8-8-4's with roller bearings were being tested, someone left one on a yard track only to realize a while later that it was rolling away towards the end of the track (which ended at a marshy wetland area). They were able to get in the engine and set the brakes in time but it was a close call. They hadn't set the brakes since it was on level track - or so they thought, it turns out it was actually on a tiny grade - something miniscule like .06%.

I believe he also said two men could move a 2-8-8-4 easily on level track.

[selector]

The World's Strongest Man competitions sometimes have the man pulling an 18 wheeler, and I have seen one where a single man pulled a large airliner.  Given that the compression in the tires on the landing gear would be something close to what would be required to overcome the compression of steel on steel, I feel that it is entirely likely that a human could move a 200 ton steam locomotive...perhaps with the added benefit of one other human, possibly two..depending.

[stmtrolleyguy]

With a good engineer,  a little bit of steam pressure on the cyllinders, anythings possible for the press. . . . .;)

[Yardmaster01]

I had an experience of this nature back in 1980 at a museum I belong to.  My partner and I had to make room in our largest barn for a new piece and had to move a medium size northern ahead about 150 ft. to the end of the barn.  Being the middle of winter there was no motive power available to do the job so our steam dept. head told us to use two 2x4's as levers between the ties and the rear tender buffer beam to get it moving.  We thought he was nuts but proceeded to do as told.  We removed the chocks on the loco and applied  the 2x4's.  It took very little effort  and Lo and Behold the engine began to move.  I thought the track was level but there must have been a slight down grade.  We had some 4x4's for chocks and threw them under the wheels short of where we wanted it to stop.  The engine  simply ground the 4x4's into kindling and continued to pick up speed.  All we could do was watch helplessly as the engine proceeded to the end of the track and pushed out the back wall.  A 12x12" support beam met the same fate as the 4x4's.  The engine didn't stop until 10 ft. of dirt and ballast had been pushed aside.  I don't believe it was ever moving faster that a slow walk but 600,000 lbs doesn't stop easily.  The only good news from this was that we had the dept. heads' permission to do this and so didn't lose our memberships.  Could a few young ladies move a northern?  Yes, provided it was equiped with roller bearings on all side rods and axles, the cylinder cocks are open and the cylinders are well lubed.  On our northern, the side rods were removed so there was no cylinder compression to stop it.  Hope this helps answer your question.  It also reminds me of an old adage:  "Any idiot can make a train go, it takes a genius to make one stop".

[HEdward]

Balance!  When the Chase Bank international building opened, dad was an employee and we took the grand opening tour.  The tour included a visit to the main vault and I, about six years old, was asked to push the two ton door.  Slowly it moved, but it did move.  Pushing a train isn't about the mass, as the earlier poster said, it's the actual resistance.