Hello all ;
Here are some videos depictiing the course of some special steam trains in Switzerland. And if, in the movies, the engines look like familiar, it's because they were 'Born in the USA'
Enjoy
watch?v=eAWSwLiReE8
watch?v=9qPtr8Yt5Ek
Nice!! Thank you.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Fascinating videos Mario! I can certainly see the family resemblance to American locomotives with the first "Mike", the second not so much. However, I was struck by how much the whistle on the second locomotive sounded like a Norfolk and Western "hooter" whistle, the type that was installed on the Class A's. That engine sounded like it would have been more at home in the mountains of Virginia than the mountains of Switzerland.
Thanks for posting!
Firelock76However, I was struck by how much the whistle on the second locomotive sounded like a Norfolk and Western "hooter" whistle, the type that was installed on the Class A's.
You mean class J's, don't you?
Class A had that awful freight whistle, the one that led to the joshing from the Southern Railway people that Ed King described --- it shouldn't have been necessary for the N&W men to have to point out that it wasn't the whistle, it was the locomotive under it that counted...
(I will grant you that the awful overblowing harmonics I hear on that second locomotive's whistle are indeed a bit reminiscent of a class A -- but not I think intentionally, and not in a particularly good way.)
I'm a big fan of the class A, but my respect does NOT extend to the whistle, any more than it does to the banshee that was standard on many classes of PRR freight power. (I note how quickly the chime whistles made it to surviving locomotives as larger numbers of passenger locomotives began to go to scrap in the '40s... sure wish PRR had sent some of them to the operation in the South so that the As could have had a real voice! ... ) <ducks for cover> ;-}
No, the Class J had what's been referred to as a "steamboat" whistle, mulit-toned and majestic. Having ridden behind the Mighty 611 I've heard it, and it doesn't sound like the single tone whistle the second locomotive's got in Mario's video. Hearing that second engines whistle I thought "Wow! It sounds like Mighty 1218!"
Now, there's some in the South who liked the "hooter" whistle on the Class A's, said there was nothing like hearing the sound of one working it's way up a hollow on a cold, snowy night. It does have a bit of a haunting quality to it given the right circumstances.
Actually, the second engine is a german class 41 mike. The wistle, on all german steam engines I know, sounds the same 'hüüüü'. I guess they used it, because their ideia of standartization was quite advanced, to the point that even some parts were interchangeable with other types of locomotives.
Here's a little story about it :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRB_Class_41
So, it's a German locomotive with an American southern accent! Kool!
Firelock76 So, it's a German locomotive with an American southern accent! Kool! Yep, and the leading engine, altough born in the american continent, it 'speaks' french with a quebequois accent, since it was 'born' in Montréal. Sacré Calice !! Here's a little about SNCF's141R's : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCF_Class_141R
Yep, and the leading engine, altough born in the american continent, it 'speaks' french with a quebequois accent, since it was 'born' in Montréal. Sacré Calice !!
Here's a little about SNCF's141R's : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCF_Class_141R
Hey Mario, if that 141R is a quebecquois locomotive they better keep an eye on it. It might be spreading separatist' literature around when they're not looking!
Hi folks ,
The videos I think once again make blatantly clear why Swiss railways did electrify early on : even with two Mikados heading the train of 13 coaches of some 50 t each doesn’t seem to get above some medium speed ! Theoretically these two – ex SNCF 141.R.1244 plus lighter ex DB 41 018 – should combine better than 5000 ihp around some 40 to 60 mph , yet I doubt if they ever got anywhere close to it on this trip , in spite of some energetic stack sounds and ‘open flame show’ by the US built Mike and in spite of a lot of dark smoke production by both engines …
The shiny finish sure is a show of its own and they finally got that engine a proper American whistle – yet the valve gear is not all that well tuned , there is a definite limping in the 4/4 rhythm of the exhaust . Originally ‘les Americaines’ had to live with that squeaking high pitched whistle generally used on French steam . Had they used a typical American deep tone steam loco whistle an average car driver somewhere in rural France upon hearing it when nearing a railroad crossing would have believed to be dreaming because there couldn’t be a deep sea vessel around there .
On the ex DB 41 – reboilered oilfired version as they were among the small flock of very last steam ending the era in 1977 on the Emsland line – the much deeper throated and softer sounding exhaust is notable , as well as some – light – rod clanking as so habitual with German two cylinder steam ; notable too , the rather more delicate yet more ‘traditional’ design of vehicle structure and drive mechanism with spoked wheels and plain bearing rods with adjustable plain big end bearing on main rod .
The 41’s whistle still is the one given to the DB reboilered engines which was somewhat lighter sounding than the standard two tone whistle of the Wagner standard type engines – btw Wagner : Richard-Paul , head of locomotive design at the DR HQ , not Richard Wagner , the composer of some music pieces leaning very ‘heavily’ into mystifying and romanticizing fields .
About the second ‘Americaine’ , 141.R.568 : the appearance is more ‘authentic’ in non-glossy , somewhat dulled black , however the setting of valve gear is better – we take from it : never shine up a steam locomotive all too much , obviously it’s not good for valve timing – *gee* .
Again they did away with the squeaking sound , yet they overdid it a bit , as to my liking , although the sound is reminiscent of some of the *really* large American Super Power steam . Again we see : even with train cut to but four cars , the engine although definitely speaking up does not rise into upper speed range , although we have to consider the locations chosen may have been on ramp sections preferably . Yet , for me – and you know my heart is with steam – it tells the old story again of electrics dwarfing steam power output next to ridiculous where-ever real mountains only just loom in the distance .
Intriguingly , they must have somewhat modified draughting arrangement in #568 for the sound is deeper and lacks the US / 141.R typical sharpness of overtones .
One thing I’m sorry to see again are cylinder drain valves not fully operating correctly , more less on *all* the featured Mikados . With due respect for voluntary efforts invested in spare time , in view of major importance of keeping piston clearance volume *clear* of water – non compressible , mind it – it is nothing less than deplorable this sort of malfunction should at all be allowed to continue in preserved engines supposed to continue vastly beyond their designed working life span . On both 141.R neither did valves all seem to open evenly and properly , nor did they close completely , or did not do so at a time . With the DB reboilered 41 class , the small diameter boiler has always had a more pronounced tendency to priming than average German standard steam – and that wasn’t free of that sort of problem in the presence of water treatment .
Although there have been rather individual attempts made , notably in the US , in general protection of the steam locomotive’s engine unit from aborting effects of priming / water carry-over certainly was one of the major points of steam loco traction never adequately solved – neither by design nor by putting water treatment to the point continuously and reliably .
Nice videos for sure and good luck to the preservation crews !
Regards
Juniatha
Hi Juniatha!
It goes without saying we appreciate your insights on European steam, after all, you're there and we're not.
Just a couple of points:
You're probably right on those cylinder cocks, but usually when I see a steam engine on an excursion run with its cocks open and smoking like crazy I can't help but think the engine crew are "hamming" it up, so to speak, you know, putting on a show for the spectators, making the engine all smoky and steamy for the cameras. Engine crews do it here in the US, I'd imagine they'd do the same in Europe.
A question on Swiss electrification: Aside from the traction advantages, didn't the Swiss start electrifying years ago do to the lack of domestic coal, and quality coal at that?
Wayne
Wayne,
You're forgetting the flip side - the Swiss have very abundant hydroelectric reserves.
- Erik
Hi Erik!
Oh yeah, I know about the Swiss hydroelectric capacities. I'd heard they started to develop the same do to the coal problem.
Hi Wayne and Erik
You are both correct – the Swiss lacked coal and developed generating electricity from hydro power stations . On the other hand , railway electrification plans greatly pushed development of hydro power electric network . As early as in the 1920s they gave up building steam locomotives just a couple of years after having started electric traction sections and although early electric locomotives still were rather clumsy affairs they shaped up rapidly and began to show their vast development potential . Early successful and already quite powerful electric loco types incorporated the Lötschberg Simplon Line 2-10-2 – which can be so classified because they had steam-typical Pony trucks both ends with coupled axles in a rigid frame in between , powered by a huge centrally mounted motor .
Btw , how much better steam fared in the flatlands – due to inherently sluggish starting contrasting with considerably living up at higher speeds – can be seen here :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlW2sV3hWu0http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlW2sV3hWu0
The rather meditative music played in the beginning does not fully transmit the feeling I guess however after some minutes the first real sounds are to be heard . Spend an hour watching this compilation of scenes from the last years of Hamburg-Altona based 012 oilfired three cylinder Pacifics storming over the Marsch-Bahn on their way to Westerland ( Marsch : ger for flat pastures near the sea which may get flooded if a North-Western storm gathers enough momentum out on the North Sea ; Bahn : ger for railway line )
Although clearly these Pacifics were badly neglected by that time , they were run professionally and extended flat out which – concluding from performance data – must have made them largely exceed their 2500 ihp nominal power output rate in daily traffic , rather sustaining some 3000 – 3300 during acceleration in the upper speed range with 12 to 15 coaches behind the tender .
The sound is not always in tune with pictures , in some cases sound and film seem to have been compiled from different repetitions of the same scene in daily traffic – yet it allows you to hear the thrilling sound of these engines – valve gear timing being pretty off point in some engines .
I have no argument about Wayne being right, the "flip side" comment was that the abundant Swiss hydro resources made electricity very inexpensive, i.e. the low power cost was the carrot and the lack of coal was the stick for the Swiss electrification program. Norway and Sweden's electrification programs had similar incentives.
Juniatha Hi folks , The videos I think once again make blatantly clear why Swiss railways did electrify early on : even with two Mikados heading the train of 13 coaches of some 50 t each doesn’t seem to get above some medium speed ! Theoretically these two – ex SNCF 141.R.1244 plus lighter ex DB 41 018 – should combine better than 5000 ihp around some 40 to 60 mph , yet I doubt if they ever got anywhere close to it on this trip , in spite of some energetic stack sounds and ‘open flame show’ by the US built Mike and in spite of a lot of dark smoke production by both engines … The shiny finish sure is a show of its own and they finally got that engine a proper American whistle – yet the valve gear is not all that well tuned , there is a definite limping in the 4/4 rhythm of the exhaust . Originally ‘les Americaines’ had to live with that squeaking high pitched whistle generally used on French steam . Had they used a typical American deep tone steam loco whistle an average car driver somewhere in rural France upon hearing it when nearing a railroad crossing would have believed to be dreaming because there couldn’t be a deep sea vessel around there . On the ex DB 41 – reboilered oilfired version as they were among the small flock of very last steam ending the era in 1977 on the Emsland line – the much deeper throated and softer sounding exhaust is notable , as well as some – light – rod clanking as so habitual with German two cylinder steam ; notable too , the rather more delicate yet more ‘traditional’ design of vehicle structure and drive mechanism with spoked wheels and plain bearing rods with adjustable plain big end bearing on main rod . The 41’s whistle still is the one given to the DB reboilered engines which was somewhat lighter sounding than the standard two tone whistle of the Wagner standard type engines – btw Wagner : Richard-Paul , head of locomotive design at the DR HQ , not Richard Wagner , the composer of some music pieces leaning very ‘heavily’ into mystifying and romanticizing fields . About the second ‘Americaine’ , 141.R.568 : the appearance is more ‘authentic’ in non-glossy , somewhat dulled black , however the setting of valve gear is better – we take from it : never shine up a steam locomotive all too much , obviously it’s not good for valve timing – *gee* . Again they did away with the squeaking sound , yet they overdid it a bit , as to my liking , although the sound is reminiscent of some of the *really* large American Super Power steam . Again we see : even with train cut to but four cars , the engine although definitely speaking up does not rise into upper speed range , although we have to consider the locations chosen may have been on ramp sections preferably . Yet , for me – and you know my heart is with steam – it tells the old story again of electrics dwarfing steam power output next to ridiculous where-ever real mountains only just loom in the distance . Intriguingly , they must have somewhat modified draughting arrangement in #568 for the sound is deeper and lacks the US / 141.R typical sharpness of overtones . One thing I’m sorry to see again are cylinder drain valves not fully operating correctly , more less on *all* the featured Mikados . With due respect for voluntary efforts invested in spare time , in view of major importance of keeping piston clearance volume *clear* of water – non compressible , mind it – it is nothing less than deplorable this sort of malfunction should at all be allowed to continue in preserved engines supposed to continue vastly beyond their designed working life span . On both 141.R neither did valves all seem to open evenly and properly , nor did they close completely , or did not do so at a time . With the DB reboilered 41 class , the small diameter boiler has always had a more pronounced tendency to priming than average German standard steam – and that wasn’t free of that sort of problem in the presence of water treatment . Although there have been rather individual attempts made , notably in the US , in general protection of the steam locomotive’s engine unit from aborting effects of priming / water carry-over certainly was one of the major points of steam loco traction never adequately solved – neither by design nor by putting water treatment to the point continuously and reliably . Nice videos for sure and good luck to the preservation crews ! Regards Juniatha
In the first case, despite some grades (I would say that in some sections these might be in the vicinity of 1,7 to 2%), the train runs at medium speed due to the fact of the german mike being limited to 90 Kmhr (56 Mph). The second case - the Gothardbahn - is a completely different case, with grades that in some point reach 2,6 and even 2,7%. If even the electrics get a hard time going thru the passes, one can imagine steam thru it. The guys of the Swiss Federal Railways are really brave allowing sometheing rather than electric tru the tough ramps
Firelock76 Hey Mario, if that 141R is a quebecquois locomotive they better keep an eye on it. It might be spreading separatist' literature around when they're not looking!
And 568, the one on the second movie is a Philly child, born in BLW
Note.that the Gothard is a single-speed railroad with everthing running at the same speed, freights, high-speed passenger, etc. And steam
The Swiss railroads sure are steep.
I find it interesting that largely no geared steam other than cog locomotives were used. Seems a lot like they would have been good for the branches.
Mario_v Firelock76 Hey Mario, if that 141R is a quebecquois locomotive they better keep an eye on it. It might be spreading separatist' literature around when they're not looking! And 568, the one on the second movie is a Philly child, born in BLW
And I'll bet the exhaust smells just like a Philly cheesesteak sandwich! Man, I'd love to have one right now but they're a hard to get item where I live now.
Hi Wayne ,
the 'show element' is definitely present in European steam events - yet , the cylinder drain valves weren't just open , they didn't work properly all the time .
quote Mario_v on Mon, Dec 30 2013 1:10 PM
>> the train runs at medium speed due to the fact of the german mike being limited to 90 Kmhr (56 Mph). <<
By definition if 90 km/h is service speed limit of an engine then running this speed is *not* medium speed for this engine . On the video , provided it’s shown in 1:1 speed , the train *never* ran 90 km/h on any of these scenes shown . My guestimate would rather be around 60 km/h in the faster speed scenes
quote daveklepper on Mon, Dec 30 2013 3:19 PM
>> Note.that the Gothard is a single-speed railroad with everthing running at the same speed, freights, high-speed passenger, etc. And steam <<
Definitely not ! This steam special did not meet electric schedules – why , it can’t , equivalent power just isn’t there . Mind that scheduled trains run 50 mph up-grade - on the Gotthard as on other Swiss and Austrian mountain mainlines . On the Brenner Pass for instancance this is essential just to pass all the traffic through ! And : yes , SBB - CFF were friendly indeed to allow a steam special on the Gotthard line at all !
quote JimValle on Mon, Dec 30 2013 10:20 PM
>> Even if Juniatha claims that the engines are running a bit lame due to the valve gear not being exactly "square" <<
I wasn’t writing the engines were running >> a bit lame << on the contrary I wrote speed was slow in spite of some energetic working ! Less so did I write this was due to valve gear misalignment ; the audible ‘off beat’ is way to small to have more than a pretty small effect on maximum output – however maximum output very likely was not reached by a large margin on the shown scenes and at least as concerns habitual German preservation steam running was in no way attempted : they usually avoid extending their engines – although not all of them seem to care likewise to avoid ‘wet’ working ( i .e. water in cylinders ) nor do they seem to avoid to run plenty of slack in rod ( and axle ! ) bearings - both of which arguably are much more abortive to engine up-keep than extending an engine when in sound condition and run with cylinders properly kept 'dry' . It's not for no reason I generally quit attending 'steam shows' !
Juniatha Hi Wayne , the 'show element' is definitely present in European steam events - yet , the cylinder drain valves weren't just open , they didn't work properly all the time . quote Mario_v on Mon, Dec 30 2013 1:10 PM >> the train runs at medium speed due to the fact of the german mike being limited to 90 Kmhr (56 Mph). << By definition if 90 km/h is service speed limit of an engine then running this speed is *not* medium speed for this engine . On the video , provided it’s shown in 1:1 speed , the train *never* ran 90 km/h on any of these scenes shown . My guestimate would rather be around 60 km/h in the faster speed scenes quote daveklepper on Mon, Dec 30 2013 3:19 PM >> Note.that the Gothard is a single-speed railroad with everthing running at the same speed, freights, high-speed passenger, etc. And steam << Definitely not ! This steam special did not meet electric schedules – why , it can’t , equivalent power just isn’t there . Mind that scheduled trains run 50 mph up-grade - on the Gotthard as on other Swiss and Austrian mountain mainlines . On the Brenner Pass for instancance this is essential just to pass all the traffic through ! And : yes , SBB - CFF were friendly indeed to allow a steam special on the Gotthard line at all ! quote JimValle on Mon, Dec 30 2013 10:20 PM >> Even if Juniatha claims that the engines are running a bit lame due to the valve gear not being exactly "square" << I wasn’t writing the engines were running >> a bit lame << on the contrary I wrote speed was slow in spite of some energetic working ! Less so did I write this was due to valve gear misalignment ; the audible ‘off beat’ is way to small to have more than a pretty moderate effect on maximum output – however maximum output very likely was not reached by a large margin on the shown scenes and at least as concerns habitual German preservation steam running was in no way attempted : they usually avoid extending their engines – although not all of them seem to care likewise to avoid ‘wet’ working ( i .e. water in cylinders ) nor do they seem to avoid to run plenty of slack in rod ( and axle ! ) bearings - both of which arguably are much more abortive to engine up-keep than extending an engine when in sound condition and run with cylinders properly kept 'dry' . It's not for no reason I generally quit attending 'steam shows' ! Regards Juniatha
I wasn’t writing the engines were running >> a bit lame << on the contrary I wrote speed was slow in spite of some energetic working ! Less so did I write this was due to valve gear misalignment ; the audible ‘off beat’ is way to small to have more than a pretty moderate effect on maximum output – however maximum output very likely was not reached by a large margin on the shown scenes and at least as concerns habitual German preservation steam running was in no way attempted : they usually avoid extending their engines – although not all of them seem to care likewise to avoid ‘wet’ working ( i .e. water in cylinders ) nor do they seem to avoid to run plenty of slack in rod ( and axle ! ) bearings - both of which arguably are much more abortive to engine up-keep than extending an engine when in sound condition and run with cylinders properly kept 'dry' . It's not for no reason I generally quit attending 'steam shows' !
I would say, on the first case - the double heading - the load of the train is about 650 metric tons (i counted 13 cars, normally a load of 50 tons per car is typical of the cars presented). That,and the grades (at least in one of the scenes,in a general plan on a broad curve), the engines seem tobe strugling upthe grade (I dunno about their 'normal power'(ok, saying that a steam engine has a so called 'normal' power output is not very correct. Every time somebody talks about 'normal' power output, I always remeber the case of the big spanish 242s, that had a normalpower output of 2700 Hp, and in tests with a dynamometer car reached 4426 Hp)would be around 2200 or 2500 Hp, so, with that considerableload, and the 'Swiss ramps' that are in some cases quite strong, even 60 is a very respectable speed.
As for the 141R in the Gothard ramp,it can never goup the 2,6% grade at the same speed that electrics would go. even so,it seems tohold itself quite well.I would say it's going at least at 'medium'speed,therefore it did not 'jam' the line (maybe this trip went on on a weekend, less trians up the grades).
M,
your reply , Mario :
That's pretty much repeating what I wrote and meant ( 13 cars , about 50 t each ; medium speed up ramp in spite of pretty good effort ( for the vintage engines in question ) .
What you mentioned about the RENFE 242 class would appear to be the difference between 'nominal' output (according to a pre-defined nominal boiler evaporation output ) and 'all-out' output of cylinder power which in European steam generally exceeded even *maximum* boiler output by a more or less notable margin . For example , of German oilfired Pacifics , the 012 three cylinder class had a 'nominal rating of ( rather mild ) 2470 ihp [ metric ] - yet , as calculation of efforts in actual service on the Osnabrück - Hamburg and Hamburg - Westerland lines later revealed , these engines were capable of exceeding 3500 ihp transiently during acceleration and sustaining better than 3000 ihp in continuous output - it was only because of this level of performance on trains of up to ~ 750 t [ metric ] @ scheduled 135 km/h the service could be realized .
See my link : video of these engines in regular traffic on the Hamburg - Westerland line
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlW2sV3hWu0
( I like the pacing scene at 44:30 )
.. and - p.s. - would you mind to stop copying my posting in total even including a copy of my signature (!!) - it can be read by the original !
Thank you
Hi Juniatha, glad you're back and you brought your insights with you!
I wouldn't be too hard on ol' Mario, maybe he can't figure out how to edit your posts down to the quote he needs. Understandable, I can't figure out how to edit a post down either, which is why I only quote short ones.
Think it's easy being a dinosaur? Think again! It takes practice!
Best wishes, Wayne
Ok , for quoting :
I prefer to mark the sentence(s) I want to quote ( and in cases the line 'posted by xyz on the twelfth of never' for example ) , copy by right click + 'copy' or by ctrl+c , set the bimp in the text bay and insert by right click + 'insert' or by ctrl+v and then write my comment below an empty line for clarity .
You may choose layout features as you like to further differentiate the quotation from your text .
Ah, so THAT'S how you do it!
Say young lady, isn't it past your bedtime? It must be about midnight in Germany! Don't loose any sleep on our account!
>> Say young lady, isn't it past your bedtime? <<
Ah , no , dad , I'm not sleepy .
Don't cha know I'm Long-tall Sally-One waiting under a stary sky on the ready track at the station where 25 kV overhead wiring ends to take over the Night Orient Express running late behind two electrics ...
*Gee*
June
.. guess I'll have to post one of my 6-4-4-6 type layouts one time ..
O-M-G this is an awful winter blizzard !
My heart is with those suffering in the bitter frost !
Good luck to everyone may springtime come early this year to save you !
Best wishes to those caught in the midst of this hard winter !
Mmmh - oh , and b-t-w :
here is a nice steam special up-ramp sound recording of preserved four cylinder compound Baden IVh Pacific , restored just recently before this recording and already ailing again ( that's not to criticize the IVh class but the rebuilding / running job ) with pushing three cylinder Decapod 44 1093 "doing all the work" as the webmaster wrote - see ( or hear )
http://www.dampfsound.de/18_316/18_316.html
scroll down to sound recordings , choose first one , cd054-07 , 18 316 “defekt” mit Sonderzug in der Steigung hinter Gräfenrode, Schub: 44 1093 (macht die ganze Arbeit allein).
What steam could do on moderate grades you may hear at
http://www.dampfsound.de/01_10/01_10-sound/01_10-sound.html
then click on right side "sounds" , scroll down to recordings
cl11-08 Mitfahrt: 01 1102 D 284 bergauf vor Kirchhain röhrend [ 01-10 Pacific heading D 284 on the rising grade approaching Kirchhain , roaring ] this was on ~ 1.0 % up and the express usually had some 12 coaches ( ~ 600 t )
wncd-19 unbekannte 01.10 mit D 532 in voller Fahrt Durchfahrt Vaale July 25 1972 [01-10 Pacific # unknown on D 532 passing Vaale at speed] this was on the ~ 0.5 % rising grade from flat land level to the high railway bridge crossing the North / Eastern Sea channel , rail level some 140 ft above ground ; recording from the last summer working of 012s on the Hamburg - Westerland line .
There is an informative site about construction of the Hochdonner high bridge at
http://www.dithmarschen-wiki.de/Bau_der_Eisenbahnhochbr%C3%BCcke_Hochdonn
.. and yet another one :
he01-17 012 075 withE 1638 (Emden->Rheine) stop and restart from Meppen station , August 05.th1973 at 19:27h.
on the level , however remarkable as an example for a very clean start and energetic acceleration - that's the way it was supposed to be ! ( clicking sound with engine waiting is feed pump mounted to the front left corner below mixing type preheater inside smokebox , ocasional faster beat from air pump midways along right side of engine , some hint of base sound from oil burners , very careful opening of throttle at start )
Play loud and have fun !
JuniathaPlay loud !
Here, coming off a 3-degree-Fahrenheit morning: AMEN, and thank you!
(And yes, expectantly awaiting the 'long tall Sally' 6-4-4-6 layout...)
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