One thing I don't get is why there are several tourist railroads and museums that are surviving in one state. There is Steamtown, Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, Strasburg Railroad, WK&S, Oil Creek and Titusville, East Broad Top, and the Stewardstown railroad, which planning on tourist operation. How can they all survive relatively close together?
Lone Geep
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New York City, Philladelphia, Boston, Washington DC.
There is also the New Hope and Ivyland Railroad.
Population geography is one advantage for Pennsylvania. In addition, a railfan who wants to vacation and visit tourist railroads and museums, not many states offer the variety found in Pennsylvania. Many other states may have one or two such venues, hard to compete with Pennsylvania's complete package.
Quality of the tourist attraction is another issue, Pennsylvania tax dollars support some of these operations to attract visitors, assisting in a way other rail musuems can not benefit. Put all that together with the variety of railfan locations, such as the Horseshoe Curve and other railfan parks on the Mountain, no matter where your at in Pennsylvania, there is opportunity for a railfan dream vacation.
Lone Geep, why ask why? If you can, go there. Trust me, you'll have a ball!
(Written as I sit here wearing a Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania "hoodie".)
Unfortunately the East Broad Top had cancelled train operation last year. IIRC they are hoping to resume this year.
Add to that the Reading Railroad Heritage Museum, operated by the Reading Company Technical and Historica Society, in Hamburg, PA.
The EBT did not run last year and things are looking dim for this year as well.
Firelock76 Lone Geep, why ask why? If you can, go there. Trust me, you'll have a ball! (Written as I sit here wearing a Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania "hoodie".)
I went there in 2011 and it was great! The way the K4sPRR explained it makes sense to me.
Thank you for your replies.
lone geep One thing I don't get is why there are several tourist railroads and museums that are surviving in one state. There is Steamtown, Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, Strasburg Railroad, WK&S, Oil Creek and Titusville, East Broad Top, and the Stewardstown railroad, which planning on tourist operation. How can they all survive relatively close together?
First reason is population
1/4 of the population for all of North America lives within a day's drive (500 miles) of Harrisburg PA. Just counting NY, Phila and DC alone, there are more than 30 million people - all within a few hours drive to those places.
Second reason is coal. Lots of RRs were built because of PA coal, so there were lots and lots of RRs and facilities there.
Lots or RR + population = museum potential!
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
They say there are more railroad employees in Pennsylvania than any other state, that's why most politicians from there are usually pro-rail. I've heard that there's more registered hunters than any other state as well. A funny thing, a bunch of us came down from Canada to attend an estate auction for a man who worked on old Citroens, near Lewisberry. This was in October and all throughout the day, the noise of gunfire was heard everywhere. Must have been hunting season. By the way, Lonegeep, are you complaining?
54light15 They say there are more railroad employees in Pennsylvania than any other state, that's why most politicians from there are usually pro-rail. I've heard that there's more registered hunters than any other state as well. A funny thing, a bunch of us came down from Canada to attend an estate auction for a man who worked on old Citroens, near Lewisberry. This was in October and all throughout the day, the noise of gunfire was heard everywhere. Must have been hunting season. By the way, Lonegeep, are you complaining?
True about the hunting. Traditionally, many kids in PA (especially in the suburban / rural areas) grew up doing two things: playing football and hunting. I've seen reports that PA deer hunters have more small arms fire power than the entire U.S. Army.
The population statement is also correct. PA has two very large metro areas, plus its sits right in the middle of the East Coast and Great Lakes population centers. It is a easy drive for close to half the population of the U.S. Factor in the historically large number of railroads in the state, it is the perfect location for RR museums.
The Pa' Game Commission estimates on the first day of rifle season there are upwards of 900,000 hunters in the woods of Pa.
There were lots of railroads in Pa. The state had/has many natural resources, such as coal, oil, lumber and was a highway from the factories on the East coast to the farms and cities of the mid west. So there was a large traffic base to provide for railroads to thrive. At the time railroads were the only way to move large amounts of products over any kind of distance. It seems that there is not a home in the state that's not within a few miles of a railroad grade of some kind. My house is within about 3 miles from 3 grades, PRR's Hamilton branch, the abandoned B&S grade and the former BR&P main line. So there was/is lots to save and a large population to provide funding, a perfetic mix for preservation.
K4sPRRPennsylvania tax dollars support some of these operations
Perhaps one reason why Pennsylvania has more railroad museums than other places is because Pennsylvanians are more willing to tax themselves to protect their heritage.
John WR K4sPRRPennsylvania tax dollars support some of these operations Perhaps one reason why Pennsylvania has more railroad museums than other places is because Pennsylvanians are more willing to tax themselves to protect their heritage.
Let's count:of the 31 sites listed in the Third Edition of the Tourist Trains Guidebook:
Two are defunct, Fayette Central and Stourbridge Line (and another defunct one not listed, the Stewartstown RR). All three got NO state money.
Another is on hiatus (East Broad Top), and not only got/gets no government money, but has actually resisted government buyout proposals.
Two are National Historic Sites (Allegheny Portage and Steamtown).
One is a state railroad museum, one of three state-operated railroad museums nationwide.
That leaves 25 museums that are more or less free of government money, and I know of a few more that aren't listed. There are a couple murky gray areas, to be sure--for example, the Pioneer Coal Mine Tunnel is located in Ashland's City Park, so there's a little bit of overlap, but the borough of Ashland doesn't run the operation, a non-profit does. The Railroaders Memorial Museum and Horse Shoe Curve eat some tax money, but certainly aren't "publicly-funded" in the way the library or schools are. Even the Franklin Institute is actually private and independent of government funding.Saying that Pennsylvania has the rail attractions they do because "Pennsylvanians are willing to tax themselves" is an outright insult to the hard-working places as big as Strasburg and as small as a little station museum that work hard to preserve railroad history and artifacts by the kindness of donations and volunteer work. It's more accurate to say "they work at it by choice."To answer the question more intelligently, Pennsylvania has the rail attractions it does because it has a proper balance of population, population density nearby, a large number of routes and rail miles for the area of the state, a diversity of scenery, and a disproportionately large role in railroad history and development, as well as a large number of people who care for whatever reasons. Pennsylvania is where the coal industry, the iron and steel industry, the oil industry, lumbering, and other crucial aspects of the Industrial Revolution took hold in North America. It became a hotbed of railcar building (Budd, ACF, Brill, etc.) and locomotive construction (Baldwin, GE) and the home of Westinghouse Air Brake (Pittsburgh).
LNER4472Two are National Historic Sites (Allegheny Portage and Steamtown).
Steamtown got "Federalized" by Congressman Flood - pure pork!
LNER4472The Railroaders Memorial Museum and Horse Shoe Curve eat some tax money, but certainly aren't "publicly-funded" in the way the library or schools are.
These got their start with an nice dose of Federal pork via Congressman Bud Shuster.
But, I agree that most get by because of location. Being near huge population and being in a area with lots of "unneeded" rail lines and facilities that make siting museums possible.
Like Colorado, Pennsylvania had some especially worth-while, long lasting railroads to preserve. The closeness to population centers Is not generally duplicated in Colorado, however.
In my case Steamtown definately gives a new meaning to the term "mixed feelings"! As a fiscal conservative I hate Congressional pork, but as a railfain.....oh brother, how do I deal with this?
It's like the old joke about the definintion of mixed feelings: seeing your worst enemy going over a cliff in your new car!
LNER4472Saying that Pennsylvania has the rail attractions they do because "Pennsylvanians are willing to tax themselves" is an outright insult to the hard-working places as big as Strasburg and as small as a little station museum that work hard to preserve railroad history and artifacts by the kindness of donations and volunteer work. It's more accurate to say "they work at it by choice."
If you consider such words an insult why, then, do you say them? As applied to my statement they are a half truth that distorts the meaning of what I said. There is no disrespect to the many individuals who work to preserve an understanding of the immense contribution of railroads to American history and culture for government also to recognize railroads' contributions and join in the efforts to bring it to the public.
4472 is way off the mark in his interpretation of what was being discussed. Yes, they work hard at it by choice, as is the case with any volunteer based endeavor, but, they are fortunate to be supported by people who are willing to allow allocation of tax dollars for such. In Pennsylvania, preserving their heritage goes way beyond its rich railroad history. John's response did not disrespect anyone for their efforts, it takes effort and money and not all States have the attitude found in Pennsylvania thus putting more pressure on those dedicated to preserve their heritage.
I don't see where he implied they have such attractions solely due to taxing themselves. I know of a small town in Pennsylvania where dedicated volunteers restored a former PRR passenger station, they were fortunate to get a state funded grant to assist in their effort. Other efforts of this type should be so fortunate.
K4sPRR4472 is way off the mark in his interpretation of what was being discussed. Yes, they work hard at it by choice, as is the case with any volunteer based endeavor, but, they are fortunate to be supported by people who are willing to allow allocation of tax dollars for such. In Pennsylvania, preserving their heritage goes way beyond its rich railroad history. John's response did not disrespect anyone for their efforts, it takes effort and money and not all States have the attitude found in Pennsylvania thus putting more pressure on those dedicated to preserve their heritage. I don't see where he implied they have such attractions solely due to taxing themselves. I know of a small town in Pennsylvania where dedicated volunteers restored a former PRR passenger station, they were fortunate to get a state funded grant to assist in their effort. Other efforts of this type should be so fortunate.
Other efforts throughout the nation are that fortunate. Not all of them, but many. This is not a situation unique to Pennsylvania. I would propose that any other such small-scale preservation project in any other state--a station, a short line, a local museum, etc.--would be equally eligible for grant programs on the local, county, or state level if they applied for them and demonstrated themselves worthy of receiving such a grant.
Furthermore, in the twenty-five-plus years I lived in Pennsylvania, I don't recall ever being given an option to select where my tax dollars went, nor do I think any such opportunity is afforded currently. So to say that "Pennsylvanians are willing to tax themselves" for the sake of rail preservation is, on the face of it, somewhat absurd.
Pennsylvania is fortunate to have a state-operated railroad museum (as is California, North Carolina, and West Virginia), and a general statewide historical perspective that encourages historic preservation, but ascribing the large number of rail preservation/tourism sites in the Commonwealth to "a willingness to tax themselves" grotesquely exaggerates the dependence of such preservation upon tax dollars instead of personal and corporate philanthropy and goodwill.
Look at it this way: If Steamtown NHS is to be regarded as "pork barrel" spending, guess who complains the most about the "waste" involved? Eastern Pennsylvanians, to whom the park is most visible and the results (or lack thereof) of the monies spent most plainly seen.
This issue rubs me a little raw because far too often I see and hear from people either miseducated or ignorant enough to sincerely believe that unless they are crass commercial tourist traps and look like it, museums and operations such as the B&O Museum, the Strasburg Railroad, the Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum, the Illinois Railway Museum, the Grand Canyon Railway, the Mid-Continent Railway Museum, etc. are all wards of the city or state, run by government bureaucrats and funded by tax dollars (and thus not needing their financial support or help).
oltmanndLNER4472The Railroaders Memorial Museum and Horse Shoe Curve eat some tax money, but certainly aren't "publicly-funded" in the way the library or schools are. These got their start with an nice dose of Federal pork via Congressman Bud Shuster.
And here we have an example of what I referred to in my most recent post.
The Railroaders Memorial Museum, and the re-developed park at the Curve, has certainly enjoyed some pretty hefty infusions of government money from the 1980s onward, but the Museum got its start with local residents coming together to organize and build a museum, not as a result of "a n nice dose of Federal pork". The group that eventually formed the Museum first incorporated in 1967-68, in part to lobby the Commonwealth to locate the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania in Altoona. That effort failed, and after said Museum was built at Strasburg, efforts continued towards building the Railroaders Memorial Museum and gathering the collection that exists today. I put my own $100 into the Museum as a tenth-grader in 1979-80.
On top of this, if any politician is going to be credited with steering "pork" towards the RMM and its projects, it should be Rep. Rick Geist, not Sen. Bud Shuster.I'm as fiscally conservative as they come, but I'm sorry the facts don't happen to fit your "government pork" narrative/beliefs.
LNER4472Furthermore, in the twenty-five-plus years I lived in Pennsylvania, I don't recall ever being given an option to select where my tax dollars went, nor do I think any such opportunity is afforded currently. So to say that "Pennsylvanians are willing to tax themselves" for the sake of rail preservation is, on the face of it, somewhat absurd.
LNER,
Please don't take it personally if I point out again that you are misunderstanding what I said. I said "one reason" for Pennsylvania's many railroad museums is a willingness of Pennsylvanians to tax themselves for what they believe to be important. But I do not suggest it is the only reason. After all, doesn't it follow that people who are willing to contribute their own time and money for this cause are also willing to see some tax revenue used for it? Finally, I never referred to any of the funding as "pork." In fact I never referred to any Federal funding at all because I have no knowledge of it.
John
interesting, but Pennsylvania had the most streetcar and interurban trolley systems in the USA (and all of North America) in rthe immediate post-WWII era: PTC-Philly, Red Arrow, LVT. Altoona and Logan Valley, Johnstown Traction, Pittsburgh Railways, Conostoga Traction (Lancaster), Reading, Hershey, Willkabarree Ry., Scranton Transit, Laurel Line (Lackawanna and Wyoming Valley), West Penn, Fairmont Park (Philly)
Now, thanks to modern light riail systems, it is California wiith 5. Pennsylavania has only 2 or 3, dependiing on how you count.
"Steamtown got "Federalized" by Congressman Flood - pure pork!"
It was McDade who can take credit or blame (depending on your perspective) for Steamtown
I think it is awesome that there are so many tourist rail operations in my state, and that there are still more people willing to take on the challenge of operating another one. In the past few years, Steam into History, Inc., began operating a brand new 1860s style train based out of New Freedom near York. The Colebrookdale Railroad started up last year in Boyertown, and another one, the Allentown and Auburn, will begin in Topton. Even the Stourbridge may reopen soon.
Each of these shortlines has a scenic line it runs on. I could think of several other scenic locations that could use a tourist railroad running through that sadly do not have a train.
While it isn't always a success, a shortline railroad finds it is a nice chance to build interest in bringing industry to their line by first bringing people. At least there is some use of the route, and maintenance to make it easier for allowing freight to return. All of this makes it better for those looking for something to do. Nothing wrong with that.
Perhaps its the rich railroad history pa has to offer. Many older rail fans identify with old prr, strong presence of cummter trains, and Amtrak today. Beautiful country to visit, including the horse shoe curve.
Pennsylvania was home to the railroad that is generally considered to have been the largest railroad in North America by several different measures. The State produced rail, bridges, freight and passenger cars, locomotives (steam, diesel, and electric), signal systems, brake systems, and scores of other railroad-related items. While the Pennsylvania Railroad is generally recognized as the largest, it has been said that there was a time when the Philadelphia & Reading was the wealthiest, or among the wealthiest, Corporations in the world.
Pennsylvania probably had more miles of railroad track per square mile than any other State, and it probably had more individual railroad companies. Several years ago, some friends and I tabulated the number of individual railroad companies in the Juniata River drainage area, which is just one area of Central Pennsylvania. We found over 100 individual operations, of which the Pennsylvania Railroad was the only Class One. These included city trolleys, Interurbans, plant switchers, industrial operations, logging companies, and shortlines. They included both narrow and standard gauge lines. I wish I knew what happened to that list.
In the 1940's, Trains Magazine published exactly one map showing the railroads of an individual State. You guessed it: Pennsylvania.
Without the influence of Pennsylvania, the American railroad landscape would have developed much differently. Whether this is fully understood by modern museum-goers, museum personnel, or by the State officials who hold the purse strings, I don't know. But it's clear that the railroad history of the State is a rich source for them to draw on.
Tom
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