Towing Dead Locomotives

[wayne]

Does the term "dead locomotive" mean not running or just not being used for power?  In either case, what provisions must be made when they are MU'd?  Do the traction motors have to be protected if not running?

[wabash1]

dead means dead cant be used . wont run traction motors problem engine problem fra dead, and no nothing special needs to be done unless its cold outside then drain the engine so it wont freeze

[Dutchrailnut]

On Dead (not Mu'ed) or not running more does need to be done than just drain water. to avoid locking taction motors the reverser needs to be centered so Traction motors can not act as generators or lock up due to electrical problems.

The brakes on locomotives are different than on  cars so if engine is not running the dead engine feature needs to be cut in so the brakepipe can charge the main reservoir or the unit would not have brakes after a few applications, dead locomotives are not always part of the locomotive consist and would not get main reservoir air thru MU connections.

 Locomotives shiped dead need to be tagged with proper FRA defective locomotive tags stating why its shut down and what has been done to assure safe move..

[csxengineer98]

On Dead (not Mu'ed) or not running more does need to be done than just drain water. to avoid locking taction motors the reverser needs to be centered so Traction motors can not act as generators or lock up due to electrical problems.

The brakes on locomotives are different than on  cars so if engine is not running the dead engine feature needs to be cut in so the brakepipe can charge the main reservoir or the unit would not have brakes after a few applications, dead locomotives are not always part of the locomotive consist and would not get main reservoir air thru MU connections.

 Locomotives shiped dead need to be tagged with proper FRA defective locomotive tags stating why its shut down and what has been done to assure safe move..

any trailing locomotives dead in tow..shut down.. or even online and used for power are supost to have the reverser REMOVED.. not just centered... as far as the air systems.. a few cut outs in the cab controll stand or the dead engin cut and 1 or all of the MU hoses made are all that is needed to move an engin that isnt running... all the dead engin cut out dose is make the air brakes on the engin respond like a car in the train.... but units in trailing posstion running or not that are MUed have to have there control stand air brake handles set to the trailing possition and differnt air valves ,switches and electrical breakers have to be in differnt settings then the lead locomotive..( can tell you what you need to do to make a locomotive a lead engin or a trailing engin..but then i would have to kill you.. industory secret..lol)

csx engineer 

[Dutchrailnut]

  By reverser I did not mean the reverser handle but physical reverser mechanism so no high voltage connections can be made.

]

                      TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION



       CHAPTER II--FEDERAL RAILROAD ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF

                             TRANSPORTATION



PART 229_RAILROAD LOCOMOTIVE SAFETY STANDARDS--Table of Contents



                            Subpart A_General



Sec. 229.9  Movement of non-complying locomotives.



    (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c) and Sec. 229.125(h),

a locomotive with one or more conditions not in compliance with this

part may be moved only as a lite locomotive or a dead locomotive after

the carrier has complied with the following:

    (1) A qualified person shall determine--

    (i) That it is safe to move the locomotive; and

    (ii) The maximum speed and other restrictions necessary for safely

conducting the movement;

    (2)(i) The engineer in charge of the movement of the locomotive

shall be notified in writing and inform all other crew members in the

cab of the presence of the non-complying locomotive and the maximum

speed and other restrictions determined under paragraph (a)(1)(ii) of

this section.

    (ii) A copy of the tag described in paragraph (a)(3) of this section

may be used to provide the notification required by paragraph (a)(2)(i)

of this section.

    (3) A tag bearing the words ``non-complying locomotive'' and

containing the following information, shall be securely attached to the

control stand on each MU or control cab locomotive and to the isolation

switch or near the engine start switch on every other type of

locomotive--

    (i) The locomotive number;

    (ii) The name of the inspecting carrier;

    (iii) The inspection location and date;

    (iv) The nature of each defect;

    (v) Movement restrictions, if any;

    (vi) The destination; and

    (vii) The signature of the person making the determinations required

by this paragraph.

    (b) A locomotive that develops a non-complying condition enroute may

continue to utilize its propelling motors, if the requirements of

paragraph (a) are otherwise fully met, until the earlier of--

    (1) The next calendar day inspection, or

    (2) The nearest forward point where the repairs necessary to bring

it into compliance can be made.

    (c) A non-complying locomotive may be moved lite or dead within a

yard, at speeds not in excess of 10 miles per hour, without meeting the

requirements of paragraph (a) of this section if the movement is solely

for the purpose of repair. The carrier is responsible to insure that the

movement may be safely made.

    (d) A dead locomotive may not continue in use following a calendar

day



[[Page 385]]



inspection as a controlling locomotive or at the head of a train or

locomotive consist.

    (e) A locomotive does not cease to be a locomotive because its

propelling motor or motors are inoperative or because its control jumper

cables are not connected.

    (f) Nothing in this section authorizes the movement of a locomotive

subject to a Special Notice for Repair unless the movement is made in

accordance with the restrictions contained in the Special Notice.

    (g) Paragraphs (a), (b), and (c) of this section shall not apply to

sanitation conditions covered by Sec. Sec. 229.137 and 229.139.

Sections 229.137 and 229.139 set forth specific requirements for the

movement and repair of locomotives with defective sanitation

compartments.

 

PART 229_RAILROAD LOCOMOTIVE SAFETY STANDARDS--Table of Contents



                            Subpart A_General



Sec. 229.13  Control of locomotives.



    Except when a locomotive is moved in accordance with Sec. 229.9,

whenever two or more locomotives are coupled in remote or multiple

control, the propulsion system, the sanders, and the power brake system

of each locomotive shall respond to control from the cab of the

controlling locomotive. If a dynamic brake or regenerative brake system

is in use, that portion of the system in use shall respond to control

from the cab of the controlling locomotive.

 

 

[csxengineer98]

  By reverser I did not mean the reverser handle but physical reverser mechanism so no high voltage connections can be made.

]

                      TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION



       CHAPTER II--FEDERAL RAILROAD ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF

                             TRANSPORTATION



PART 229_RAILROAD LOCOMOTIVE SAFETY STANDARDS--Table of Contents



                            Subpart A_General



Sec. 229.9  Movement of non-complying locomotives.



    (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c) and Sec. 229.125(h),

a locomotive with one or more conditions not in compliance with this

part may be moved only as a lite locomotive or a dead locomotive after

the carrier has complied with the following:

    (1) A qualified person shall determine--

    (i) That it is safe to move the locomotive; and

    (ii) The maximum speed and other restrictions necessary for safely

conducting the movement;

    (2)(i) The engineer in charge of the movement of the locomotive

shall be notified in writing and inform all other crew members in the

cab of the presence of the non-complying locomotive and the maximum

speed and other restrictions determined under paragraph (a)(1)(ii) of

this section.

    (ii) A copy of the tag described in paragraph (a)(3) of this section

may be used to provide the notification required by paragraph (a)(2)(i)

of this section.

    (3) A tag bearing the words ``non-complying locomotive'' and

containing the following information, shall be securely attached to the

control stand on each MU or control cab locomotive and to the isolation

switch or near the engine start switch on every other type of

locomotive--

    (i) The locomotive number;

    (ii) The name of the inspecting carrier;

    (iii) The inspection location and date;

    (iv) The nature of each defect;

    (v) Movement restrictions, if any;

    (vi) The destination; and

    (vii) The signature of the person making the determinations required

by this paragraph.

    (b) A locomotive that develops a non-complying condition enroute may

continue to utilize its propelling motors, if the requirements of

paragraph (a) are otherwise fully met, until the earlier of--

    (1) The next calendar day inspection, or

    (2) The nearest forward point where the repairs necessary to bring

it into compliance can be made.

    (c) A non-complying locomotive may be moved lite or dead within a

yard, at speeds not in excess of 10 miles per hour, without meeting the

requirements of paragraph (a) of this section if the movement is solely

for the purpose of repair. The carrier is responsible to insure that the

movement may be safely made.

    (d) A dead locomotive may not continue in use following a calendar

day



[[Page 385]]



inspection as a controlling locomotive or at the head of a train or

locomotive consist.

    (e) A locomotive does not cease to be a locomotive because its

propelling motor or motors are inoperative or because its control jumper

cables are not connected.

    (f) Nothing in this section authorizes the movement of a locomotive

subject to a Special Notice for Repair unless the movement is made in

accordance with the restrictions contained in the Special Notice.

    (g) Paragraphs (a), (b), and (c) of this section shall not apply to

sanitation conditions covered by Sec. Sec. 229.137 and 229.139.

Sections 229.137 and 229.139 set forth specific requirements for the

movement and repair of locomotives with defective sanitation

compartments.

 

PART 229_RAILROAD LOCOMOTIVE SAFETY STANDARDS--Table of Contents



                            Subpart A_General



Sec. 229.13  Control of locomotives.



    Except when a locomotive is moved in accordance with Sec. 229.9,

whenever two or more locomotives are coupled in remote or multiple

control, the propulsion system, the sanders, and the power brake system

of each locomotive shall respond to control from the cab of the

controlling locomotive. If a dynamic brake or regenerative brake system

is in use, that portion of the system in use shall respond to control

from the cab of the controlling locomotive.

 

 

you needed to be more speifice in what you mean by reverser..becoues for me im betting others on here when you say reverser must be centered.. we are talking the handel not the guts in the controll stand...

csx engineer 

[Anonymous]

Thats what I was thinking reverser handle, not reverser control stand components.

[nscaler711]

is there any way at all that the air compresser could still be running if the loco was dead.....therefore you can MU the loco to control the braking system?

[csxengineer98]

is there any way at all that the air compresser could still be running if the loco was dead.....therefore you can MU the loco to control the braking system?

no.. the air compresser will not load..(compress air) when the unit is dead.. there are 2 types of air compressers..1 type runs off the crank shaft of the prime mover... so if the engin isnt running..the shaft inst turning to make the compresser work.. and the second is an electical motor drivin compresser.. but this one uses a motor insted of a direct shaft from the prime mover to compress air..but the motor dose require power from the altinator that turns when the prime mover is running.. so in short..in either case..for the unit to make its own air.. it has to be running...

csx engineer 

[nscaler711]

in that case there needs to be backup batteries to power an air compresser for braking operations just in case a locomotive is out of service (which does happen to new and old locomotives)

[csxengineer98]

in that case there needs to be backup batteries to power an air compresser for braking operations just in case a locomotive is out of service (which does happen to new and old locomotives)

no....ok..let me see if i can try to explain this.. when units are MUed.. running or not..as long as at least 1 unit is running..it is making air to supply the air brakes for the engins as well as the train.. the MU hoses that go between the units is where the air supply comes from for units that arent making there own air... there are 3 hoses between each unit(not counting the train line brake pipe which is the one in the middle)..each hose allows air to move between each unit as long as the hoses are made and the endcocks are open to work the engin brakes as well as allow air to fill the main air resovors of any unit that isnt running to help keep air pressures up in overall system.. ok..i hope i cleared that up..

csx engineer

[Dutchrailnut]

Dead locomotives however are not always handled as part of active power, but seperated by at least one or two cars from head end.Sp Mu connections are not always available, and unless the battery is active functions like wheel slip and sanding are not available.

This is why FRA rules are specific on how to handle dead locomotives.

[csxengineer98]

Dead locomotives however are not always handled as part of active power, but seperated by at least one or two cars from head end.Sp Mu connections are not always available, and unless the battery is active functions like wheel slip and sanding are not available.

This is why FRA rules are specific on how to handle dead locomotives.

wheel slip and sanding are pointless to be "working" if the unit is seperated by cars from the main engin consist.. the engineer will never know for sure untill he sees the smoke from the wheels being ground flat becoues of a locked axle.. alarms are transmited thought the electrical jumper cable..not the air hoses... so if there is no jumper cable hooked up to that unit.. no alarm will be heard in the lead engin cab to let the engineer know if there is a problem at all with the unit being towed... as far as sanding.. if the engin isnt producing any tractive effort becouse it is dead and is buried by a few cars..it is useless to have it working even if it could work with a buffer car(s) between it and the lead engin.. the point of sanding the rails is to add traction to the units pulling the train.. any unit that isnt pulling is dead weight like a loaded car...so to have a unit put sand down that is in the train is a waste of sand... and also back to the wheel slip..wheel slip is when the wheels break contact with the rail head and spin when under power... being draged around dead..it isnt creating any power so the wheel slip alarm wont go off.. and come to think of it.. the only times i have ever had any kind of wheel slip alarms was on the lead unit... i have to do some digging back in the books agin or unless someone else jumps in on this that is also an engineer befor i get the info im looking for to post here.. to see if the wheel slip alarm from other units will set the alarm off on the lead...

csx engineer 

[Anonymous]

The wheel slip alarm should sound in the lead motor.  But as you said before if the electircal jumper is not connected between the motors, then it will not sound, or light up.  I know working as a student enginner for the TPW we had the TPW 4020 that would always give a false wheel slip, so we had to learn to ignore it.  Say if we had the TPW 3830 in the lead with the TPW 4020 in trail, the 4020 would throw a wheel slip light and the 3830 would show wheel slip.  It had been reported to mechanical many time, and the train master even knew about it.  But they could not get it fixed. 

CSX Enginner, would this not be a defect that the motor should be taken out of service till it was fixed?

[BigJim]

to see if the wheel slip alarm from other units will set the alarm off on the lead...

Yep, it sure will. Does it in power or dynamic. Of course that is as long as the jumper cables are connected.

Some of us that have been around awhile still get a kick out of it when we mention what one engineer blurted out over the radio to the dispatcher when he was having unit trouble. "I'm getting a continuous intermintent wheel slip."

Here's one for you. When you went to pick your units up and they are tied down, have you had any BN units back in your consist? Did you notice that a bell came up and the wheel slip light came on when you moved the reverse bar? Scratching your head, you go back through the units to find out what is going on. The first time this happened to me, I made about three or four trips through the units until I found out that the BN unit has to have its hand brake wheel totally unwound until it can't be unwound any more or the bell and wheel slip light will come on when you try to move the units.

What will they think of next? Probably an automatic bell that can't be turned off.  EMD has already thought of that!

See you next week fellas. I gotta take a week off to recover from listening to that bell ringing all the way down the road!

 

[Anonymous]

Now that is interesting.  I have never heard of that before.  Although I like the new locomotives that you push a button on the back wall to apply and release the hand brake.  The first time I got on it was a UP motor in Mapleton, IL.  We had to take I beleive 50 covered hoppers down to CFI (if I remeber the industry correctly).  That is the same night that the UP road foreman came out to make sure we got the handbrake off ok. 

[wabash1]

yes if the rear units produce a wheel slip you will get a alarm in the lead unit. it wont matter if its power or dynamic, and constant wheel slip is not a reason to deadline a engine, ive had constant wheel slip and everything was fine just a sensor bad, but i have also had some that the shop killed on the spot. when you get wheel slip sitting still thats not good.  ive towed engines that all i did was shut them down, all engines i tow are on the head end brakes working and so on, when i say all you need to do is drain the engine in cold weather this is all you need to do, as the engines are already set up to trail. all this other stuff is fine if you want to make them boxcars but that is way to much work on both ends set them up like a trailing engine and in 5 min your gone down the road. 

[Randy Stahl]

And then there are the restrictions for handling a locomotive without self alignment drawbars .. it can get complicated.....

[nscaler711]

Where do you guys/gals(just in case) get your information on all this?......im aspireing to be a Locomotive Engineer.

[Anonymous]

Most of mine comes from my student engineer trips.  A little comes from what was taught in the BNSF engineers class.

[Dutchrailnut]

Mine from being in Mechaincal Dept for 6 years and 17 as Engineer and potential FRA motive power inspector in past ;-)

[rrboomer]

One further step after you have opened the dead engine **** (feature). If the unit has MU capability then the actuating pipe (if equipped) and application and release pipe must have one cut out **** (valve) opened on each end of the locomotive.

After the main reservoir has charged through the dead engine feature a brake test must, of course, be made.

[ValleyX]

Where do you guys/gals(just in case) get your information on all this?......im aspireing to be a Locomotive Engineer.

 

A whole lot of practice. 

[csxengineer98]

ok..i did find what i was looking for..so you have to forgive me for a few erros that i have made in my periouse statement....i havent worked the road as an engineer in the better part of 4 years now..and havent been in the seat on a reguler basic for the almost 3 years..(worked a yard job as an engineer and took a flow back to yard forman to stay in the yard some years ago) but i do get some stick time once in a while when i feel like it by takeing over for the engineer i work with.. but some of my knowlage as far wheel slip alarms has sliped my mind...

basicly what i found is exacty what other engineers have already said so im not going to borther to retype all that... just read what big jim and a few others have stated.. that is the correct info.. 

csx engineer 

[nbrodar]

Where do you guys/gals(just in case) get your information on all this?......im aspireing to be a Locomotive Engineer.

• Your Air Brake & Train Handling Book.
• Your coursework during Engine School, sometimes irreverently called Choo Choo U.
• Your Road Foreman of Engines.
• Your friendly (or not so friendly) neighborhood FRA inspector.
• Some RRs also issue special checklist cards.

 Nick

[nscaler711]

Would you say you like your job as a loco. Engineer?

[Anonymous]

For the time that I was in the seat, I absolutly loved it.  The only time I really didn't care for it was when I was student engineering, aproaching the Chenoa UP interlockingI just happed to see the main line switch lined and locked against us.  The MOWs lined it against when they were doing track work, but some how forgot to line it back.  But I never hit anyone on a train (YET), never got hurt, so I loved it.

[Semper Vaporo]

All this talk about Towing Dead Locomotives and not one mention of whether or not you have to remove your hat and bow your head as it goes by.

[BigJim]

And then there are the restrictions for handling a locomotive without self alignment drawbars .. it can get complicated.....

Now ain't that the truth! I've had to refuse to take them sometimes. Even the locomotive forces don't know how to read their own rules about how they are to be placed in a consist! They just tag them on the rear and hope you take them the way they are.

[coborn35]

And if you boxcar them, they must be 6 cars back frm the trailing units (at least on CP) becasue they are classified as hazardous due to diesel fuel.