Cylindrical Hoppers

[Lyon_Wonder]

In the early 1960s ACF introduced their roundish cylindrical hoppers, which differed greatly from ribbed sided hoppers of the era.  These cars appear to have been made in 3-bay and 6-bay variations.  These cylindrical hoppers were superceded on ACF’s production line by the Centerflow in 1964, a revolutionary design that influenced later covered hopper types.  In the late 60s or early 70s Canada came out with 4-bay covered hoppers that appear to be derived from ACF’s pre-Centerflow cylindricals, used by CN, CP and various Canadian shippers.  Why did the builder in Canada base their deigns off the older cylindrical and not ACF’s newer Centerflow?  Perhaps ACF didn’t allow it because they believed their centerflow design was unique and threatened legal action against other builders copying it, or maybe Canada liked the cylindrical design better?  And of course Canada roads appeared to prefer Canadian-built rolling stock.

early ACF cylindrical hopper

Canadian cylindrical hopper 

[ericsp]

If I remember correctly, ACF Industries had a patent on the Center-flow design. Unfortunately, I cannot find anything for ACF before 1971 and nothing at all for American Car and Foundry at the US PTO's website. Trains had an article about Center-flows in the February 2000 issue, that may have some relevant information in it.

By the way, it seems like the article said that ACF's cylindrical hoppers were the original Center-flow hoppers.

[rrnut282]

Didn't the cylindrical hopper hold a larger volume than the regular covered hopper?

[CShaveRR]

There's a book on the history of the Center Flow covered hopper by Eric A. Neubauer that answers a lot of the questions.  The second edition is on CD ROM.  Eric is amazingly thorough (and my name's in it as one of his resources).

The prototype Canadian cars made their appearance before ACF came up with its "tear-drop" Center Flow design, which gives more cubic capacity in a given length.  Now just about everybody builds covered hoppers with smooth, curving sides; I don't know if any ribbed-side cars have been built in the last five years or more.

[Andrew Falconer]

In the 2000 Trains article it mentions that the ACF Center Flow name and design started with the Cylindrical Hoppers built in 1963.

 

Has anybody seen builder photos of the ACF Center Flow Cylindrical Hoppers in the Detroit & Toldeo ShoreLine scheme when they were new? 

 Canadian National and Canadian Pacific had Canadian built 1960's cylindrical type hoppers that were closer to teardrop shaped compared to the 1970's and 1980's era cars that were truly Cylindrical. I wonder who built them.

Andrew

[Kootenay Central]

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[jrbernier]

rrnut282

Didn't the cylindrical hopper hold a larger volume than the regular covered hopper?

 

Mike,

  A 'box' shaped hopper of the same length should hold more product.  The problem is that most of the original PS covered hoppers had the steel center sill running through the bottom of the hopper.  This resulted in pairs of dischage chutes on either side of the center sill, and restricted the flow of product when emptying the car.  PS later offered a modified design(the suffix CD for Center Discharge). 

  The ACF design has large side members to carry the load and the discharge chutes  have no center sill to restrict the flow of material.  Also, there is less area for material to 'collect' and have to be cleaned out.  Trinity Industries currently has purchassed the designs of several former rail car manufacturers and builds a variaty of different size convered hoppers.  Most of these are based on the ACF Centerflow design.

Jim

[CShaveRR]

rrnut282

Didn't the cylindrical hopper hold a larger volume than the regular covered hopper?

 

When Trinity Industries was offering both ribbed-side and curved-side (not cylindrical, by any means) covered hoppers, it was the curved-side version (5161 cubic feet) that had more capacity with identical dimensions. The ribbed-side car (5127 cubic feet) had the small disadvantage of needing the ribs on the outside of the sides, which gave the curved-side car a couple of inches of extra width to work with.

I haven't seen a ribbed-side covered hopper car built in this century.

[Andrew Falconer]

 

 From the Fallen Flags Railroad photography website.

This is the first ACF CENTER FLOW Covered Hopper built in January 1962.

  

Andrew

 

 

[Redore]

A rounded shape uses less steel than a flat side with stiffiners.  Less steel = less weight, less cost, and more payload.  Need I say more?

[bubbajustin]

I think that if you look closely you will see that most hoppers nowadays will have these curved sides on them, It adds capacity, w/o sacrificing length. Some aren’t as drastic of a bulge, or “curve” as the Canadian designs.

I always like to see the “Canadian” cars that are in the Rainbow scheme.

[Andrew Falconer]

The early Canadian National Cylindrical Hopper in a photo.

 

[Andrew Falconer]

This is an example of the Canadian Pacific Cylindrical Hoppers built in July 1968. Jim Sands photo.

 

[BNSFwatcher]

The Canadian Government bought a huge number of cylindrical hoppers.  They were made at the Trenton Works in Nova Scotia, I think.  Maybe elsewhere, too.  They were 'assigned' to the CP and CN, but I don't have any idea on the percentage to each.  The Government of Alberta, and Saskatchewan, had a bunch, too.  I heard that they have been recently sold to the railroads involved.  The BNSF has been buying a large number from Trinity Industries, made in Texas and Mexico.  110-car unit-trains of these cars are common and the farmers still whine about the cost of shipping their grain (from their  6-month winter homes in Arizona, of course).  Guess I gotta 'Google' some stuff!

Hays

[Mill Bay]

I appreciate all the info on this thread everyone. I've been looking around for info on the history of this particular car type to see if it would fit into my era.

 Does anyone else know specifically when the famous Canadian grain hoppers started coming out in their colorful schemes? I'm also curious about other Canadian roads that may have rostered cylindrical hoppers. Does anyone know if the Pacific Great Eastern/British Columbia Railway ever had any?

 Also.... does anyone know if there are any really good reference pages around online that detail different types and models of freight cars and what eras they were built in?

[Boyd]

Kootenay Central

.

 

I agree with what Kootenay Central said.

[nanaimo73]

Mill Bay

 Also.... does anyone know if there are any really good reference pages around online that detail different types and models of freight cars and what eras they were built in?

I believe all of the Canadian Wheat Board hoppers were built during the 1970s by Marine Industries and Hawker Siddeley. The Alberta and Saskatchewan hoppers, as well as the potash hoppers for PCS and Canpotex, came later from National Steel Car.

This site looks interesting-

http://freight.railfan.ca/index.html

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Mill Bay

  [snip] Does anyone else know specifically when the famous Canadian grain hoppers started coming out in their colorful schemes? I'm also curious about other Canadian roads that may have rostered cylindrical hoppers. Does anyone know if the Pacific Great Eastern/British Columbia Railway ever had any?

 Also.... does anyone know if there are any really good reference pages around online that detail different types and models of freight cars and what eras they were built in?

I'm not sure if these 2 sites are as detailed as you might want in terms of dimensions, etc., but they do have lots of photos and might be a good starting point, in addition to the one that Dale posted.

RR Picture Archives.Net - Rolling Stock Category: Covered Hopper - Index Page, at: 

 http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/rsRRList.aspx?id=4 

For example, I see 2 listings there for the Alberta Government - reporting marks ALNX and ALPX - but none for either PGE or BCR.

Railcar Photos.Com - Car Type Index/ Search page - has 8 listings for Covered Hoppers - 2, 3, and 4 Bay in both Cylindrical and Ribbed Side versions, plus AirSlide and Other, over 10,000 photos altogether, at: 

  http://www.railcarphotos.com/CarTypeCount.php 

Using another index/ search page on this site, I looked at the photos for the reporting marks BCR - 2 and PGE - 7, but none of them were covered hoppers. 

Hope this is helpful.  Good luck with your research.

- Paul North.

 

[cv_acr]

Paul_D_North_Jr

For example, I see 2 listings there for the Alberta Government - reporting marks ALNX and ALPX - but none for either PGE or BCR.

... 

Using another index/ search page on this site, I looked at the photos for the reporting marks BCR - 2 and PGE - 7, but none of them were covered hoppers. 

Paul you want to be looking for the reporting marks BCOL. "BCR" is NOT the reporting mark of British Columbia Railway/BC Rail.

[cv_acr]

nanaimo73

I believe all of the Canadian Wheat Board hoppers were built during the 1970s by Marine Industries and Hawker Siddeley. The Alberta and Saskatchewan hoppers, as well as the potash hoppers for PCS and Canpotex, came later from National Steel Car.

 They were built from the late 1970s into the early 1980s. The 1970s cars were the brown Canadian Wheat Board cars. The bright red Canada scheme was introduced around 1981. The Alberta and Saskatchewan cars were also built in the early 1980s.

These cars were built by NSC, Hawker-Siddeley and Marine Industries.

Check this site for detailed roster information on Canadian freight cars including the government grain cars and other privately operated fleets:

http://nakina.net

[Andrew Falconer]

British Columbia Railway had Tank Hoppers just like CN, CP, Procor also owned.

Look up BCOL and BCIT reporting mark to potentially find photos of them.

Andrew

[samfp1943]

Back in the early 1970's IIRC there was a speed limit put on these specific cars ( The Cylindrical style). I think it was some friends in Memphis who worked on the Frisco that were having to deal with a 35 mph speed limit on these cars when moving empty.  It was due to spontaneous derailing at speeds between 30-40 mph. the effected cars were of this new style of covered hopper (cylindrical) cars, they were just becoming widespread in use during the 1960's and into the early 70's.   

The problem as I remember was a combination of rough track, and/or a harmonic viberation that would set in to a train of these cars, or a group coupled together.     The viberation would manifest itself as a rocking motion, and would build until the empty cars were rocking right out of the train, and off their trucks.  Not sure what the eventual fix was to resolve this, but it has obviously been successful.

If anyone else can add to this or correct me if I'm in error, Please do. Thanks!

[AgentKid]

All I remember of this subject was a peculiarity of the truck wheelbase relative to the length of jointed rail. Two length's of rail would be 78 feet but the joints on one side are generally offset to the joints on other rail. So in certain conditions you would get a rough riding situation. I don't understand the physics of it, but the problem mostly resolved itself with the installation of CWR and the increasing sizes of later model hoppers.

Bruce