I find myself wondering:
a. How the camera survived the impact, when most of the locomotive was destroyed.
b. Since the camera somehow did survive (along with post-impact audio (in tree68's link)), where is the post-impact video--it seems as though the actual wreck was edited out.
jeffhergert wrote: Today we had a safety meeting where this video was being shown. We were told the person seen jumping was killed from the resulting derailment. Jeff
Today we had a safety meeting where this video was being shown. We were told the person seen jumping was killed from the resulting derailment.
Jeff
When this was discussed at the safety meeting, were you given any advice as to whether to jump or ride it out? The reason I ask is that I had read somewhere some time ago, that the official advice from the railroad industry was to not jump when a collision is imminent. It seemed to have been based on a statistical analysis that indicated an average better chance of survival by riding out a crash.
I know that it has been indicated by others in this thread that the decision of whether to jump or ride out a crash is up to the individual rather than being dictated by a company policy. But I still wonder about the possible existence of official policy on this matter. If it were me facing a collision, and such a no-jump policy or rule existed, I would set it aside and make my decision on the probable outcome. In fact, I would set it aside permanently just so I did not have to deal with it in an emergency.
During the age of steam, it seems that jumping was always the preferred course, so there was no debate about jumping versus riding it out. I have heard it expressed this way: "With a collision on a steam locomotive, if it did not crush you, it would be sure to scald you to death." So this issue of the decision of whether to jump or ride it out is apparently is a specific development of the diesel age.
Bucyrus wrote: csxengineer98 wrote: Bucyrus wrote: edblysard wrote: Watch it again, you can see the opposing train trip the signal system and our signal aspect changes from red over green, (diverging route) to red over red, as it should once someone ocupy the circut, which the opposing train does just as he passes the signal mast on the other side of the switch.I thought I was seeing, at first, a green aspect on that signal the first train passed, but when the camera got closer, it looked like red over red. I did not start/stop to check it out, but just concluded that it was red all along. Your explanation that it changed by the violation of the oppsing train makes sence. But even if that signal did go red right in their face, would they not have been required to see it and stop, even if they could not stop short of it? Don't they have to watch and react to every signal right up to the point where they pass it and can no longer see it?That brings up another question. Wouldn't the dispatcher see that the first train passed a red board and communicate the error to the crews of both trains? When the first train got the red signal in their face, did that mean the other train was passing a red board at that moment? Wouldn't the dispatcher have seen this whole thing unfolding? after watching the video many times.. as fast as that all happend..there was NO WAY anything could have been done in time by anyone but the crews.. the meet was "perfict" so to speak for a headon in the middle of the plant.. the signal on the train with the cam went from medium clear to red about 2 seconds befor the locomotive passed it..that is not enought time to stop unless he was going 1mph.. and he was going alittle faster then that.. and as far as the dispatcher seeing it unfolding..he saw it unfold as soon as the system went "out of corrisondance" as the derailing trains destoryed the wireing and track circits that ran the system at that interlocking.. if the train with the cam on it was a few miles away from the plant.. then there might ahve been some time to stop both trains in time but there was nothing anyone could have done to warn anyone in time for this situation.. csx engineer I understand and agree with what you say. My question injected confusion into the explanation because I was questioning the aspect of the first signal at the grade crossing, not the signal at the switch. On the video, on my monitor, the first signal looked like red over red, when they passed it. At the very start, it was undecipherable, but it looked like it might have had a green aspect, so I thought it changed from clear to stop. So this raised the questions of why they would have passed the stop signal, and why the dispatcher would not have reacted since it was a long way from the impact. But now I understand that the first signal was yellow over yellow, and neither the dispatcher nor the camera engine crew would have recognized a problem until the signal at the switch went red in their face.I am curious about how this unfolded for the crew of the opposing train. It was mentioned somewhere that they were alseep. If true, I would suppose that they slept passed the approach signal, and also until they were too close to the signal at the switch to stop in time. Since they were in emergency, I would assume that at least one person woke up and saw the red signal and possibly the approaching train, and then reacted to that situation by dumping the air.I do not know what the conclusions of the investigation were, but I wonder where the train opposing the camera was when they set the brakes. It raises one other question, but I won't speculate before others comment. I think it is interesting to understand exactly how these things happen, and what options are available as time runs out.
csxengineer98 wrote: Bucyrus wrote: edblysard wrote: Watch it again, you can see the opposing train trip the signal system and our signal aspect changes from red over green, (diverging route) to red over red, as it should once someone ocupy the circut, which the opposing train does just as he passes the signal mast on the other side of the switch.I thought I was seeing, at first, a green aspect on that signal the first train passed, but when the camera got closer, it looked like red over red. I did not start/stop to check it out, but just concluded that it was red all along. Your explanation that it changed by the violation of the oppsing train makes sence. But even if that signal did go red right in their face, would they not have been required to see it and stop, even if they could not stop short of it? Don't they have to watch and react to every signal right up to the point where they pass it and can no longer see it?That brings up another question. Wouldn't the dispatcher see that the first train passed a red board and communicate the error to the crews of both trains? When the first train got the red signal in their face, did that mean the other train was passing a red board at that moment? Wouldn't the dispatcher have seen this whole thing unfolding? after watching the video many times.. as fast as that all happend..there was NO WAY anything could have been done in time by anyone but the crews.. the meet was "perfict" so to speak for a headon in the middle of the plant.. the signal on the train with the cam went from medium clear to red about 2 seconds befor the locomotive passed it..that is not enought time to stop unless he was going 1mph.. and he was going alittle faster then that.. and as far as the dispatcher seeing it unfolding..he saw it unfold as soon as the system went "out of corrisondance" as the derailing trains destoryed the wireing and track circits that ran the system at that interlocking.. if the train with the cam on it was a few miles away from the plant.. then there might ahve been some time to stop both trains in time but there was nothing anyone could have done to warn anyone in time for this situation.. csx engineer
Bucyrus wrote: edblysard wrote: Watch it again, you can see the opposing train trip the signal system and our signal aspect changes from red over green, (diverging route) to red over red, as it should once someone ocupy the circut, which the opposing train does just as he passes the signal mast on the other side of the switch.I thought I was seeing, at first, a green aspect on that signal the first train passed, but when the camera got closer, it looked like red over red. I did not start/stop to check it out, but just concluded that it was red all along. Your explanation that it changed by the violation of the oppsing train makes sence. But even if that signal did go red right in their face, would they not have been required to see it and stop, even if they could not stop short of it? Don't they have to watch and react to every signal right up to the point where they pass it and can no longer see it?That brings up another question. Wouldn't the dispatcher see that the first train passed a red board and communicate the error to the crews of both trains? When the first train got the red signal in their face, did that mean the other train was passing a red board at that moment? Wouldn't the dispatcher have seen this whole thing unfolding?
edblysard wrote: Watch it again, you can see the opposing train trip the signal system and our signal aspect changes from red over green, (diverging route) to red over red, as it should once someone ocupy the circut, which the opposing train does just as he passes the signal mast on the other side of the switch.
Watch it again, you can see the opposing train trip the signal system and our signal aspect changes from red over green, (diverging route) to red over red, as it should once someone ocupy the circut, which the opposing train does just as he passes the signal mast on the other side of the switch.
I thought I was seeing, at first, a green aspect on that signal the first train passed, but when the camera got closer, it looked like red over red. I did not start/stop to check it out, but just concluded that it was red all along. Your explanation that it changed by the violation of the oppsing train makes sence. But even if that signal did go red right in their face, would they not have been required to see it and stop, even if they could not stop short of it? Don't they have to watch and react to every signal right up to the point where they pass it and can no longer see it?
That brings up another question. Wouldn't the dispatcher see that the first train passed a red board and communicate the error to the crews of both trains? When the first train got the red signal in their face, did that mean the other train was passing a red board at that moment? Wouldn't the dispatcher have seen this whole thing unfolding?
csx engineer
I understand and agree with what you say. My question injected confusion into the explanation because I was questioning the aspect of the first signal at the grade crossing, not the signal at the switch. On the video, on my monitor, the first signal looked like red over red, when they passed it. At the very start, it was undecipherable, but it looked like it might have had a green aspect, so I thought it changed from clear to stop. So this raised the questions of why they would have passed the stop signal, and why the dispatcher would not have reacted since it was a long way from the impact.
But now I understand that the first signal was yellow over yellow, and neither the dispatcher nor the camera engine crew would have recognized a problem until the signal at the switch went red in their face.
I am curious about how this unfolded for the crew of the opposing train. It was mentioned somewhere that they were alseep. If true, I would suppose that they slept passed the approach signal, and also until they were too close to the signal at the switch to stop in time. Since they were in emergency, I would assume that at least one person woke up and saw the red signal and possibly the approaching train, and then reacted to that situation by dumping the air.
I do not know what the conclusions of the investigation were, but I wonder where the train opposing the camera was when they set the brakes. It raises one other question, but I won't speculate before others comment. I think it is interesting to understand exactly how these things happen, and what options are available as time runs out.
FYI
full vid, including after collision sound, found on YouTube, of course...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-kZONm3E6A&mode=related&search=
Thats no way to run a railroad
Have fun with your trains
Interesting discussion.
In the area I live in (NW Indiana) the CSX and NS crews call out signals over the radio. CN does not.
For those of you in train service....how much of a safety issue is calling out the signals? Is it a good thing, or just another task? I would think it would help "keep sharp".
ed
In my attempt to be brief, I was unclear. Let's try again.
Maybe track warrant control (TWC), used in areas that don't have signals (dark territory), has one advantage. Under TWC train crews usually hear the conversations between the dispatcher and other trains, so they have knowledge about other trains in the vicinity of their own train.
In my location, Frisco, TX, the BNSF Madill Subdivision is dark territory. When a train approaches a passing siding here, a crew member announces on the radio the fact that the train is approaching the siding. They usually call ahead to a train they expect to meet at the siding.
I am thinking that, if the trains in the video had been under TWC, perhaps such radio communication might have gotten the attention of the crew of the train that ran through the switch, causing them to stop as they were supposed to before fouling the switch. Or the crew of the video train might have sensed the danger earlier if they had tried to communicate and received no answer, even though they knew the train should have been in radio range.
I read about a similar accident in a report by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) where the crew of a train that had entered the passing siding didn't stop in the siding, but ran right through the siding and back out onto the main. The train collided with the train on the main behind the engine, which had already passed the switch. This one was also in the very early morning hours.
Scientists who study sleep have reported that people's ability to maintain attention is reduced in the very early morning hours, say, 0100 to 0600 hours. The impairment is very difficult to overcome, they say.
Thanks for clarifying that there are ABS signals between Sherman and Denison. I hadn't noticed that.
cordon wrote: railroadjj wrote: cordon wrote: The crews around here usually talk to each other as they approach a meet and are aware of each other's presence. This is dark territory, so they hear the warrants and rollups from the other trains. Maybe that's one advantage to dark territory. Question:What are you talking about. Are you sure you watched the same video as everyone else. This is CTC with ABS signals. All the dark territory I have ever worked did not have a signal except at interlockings. This sure is not an interlocker. Can someone else please tell me if they have ever seen ABS signals in Dark Territory. Very bad writing on my part. I apologize. What I meant to say in the second sentence is, "Around here, on the Madill Sub between Carrollton and Denison, it is dark territory, so they hear the warrants and rollups from the other trains."
railroadjj wrote: cordon wrote: The crews around here usually talk to each other as they approach a meet and are aware of each other's presence. This is dark territory, so they hear the warrants and rollups from the other trains. Maybe that's one advantage to dark territory. Question:What are you talking about. Are you sure you watched the same video as everyone else. This is CTC with ABS signals. All the dark territory I have ever worked did not have a signal except at interlockings. This sure is not an interlocker. Can someone else please tell me if they have ever seen ABS signals in Dark Territory.
cordon wrote: The crews around here usually talk to each other as they approach a meet and are aware of each other's presence. This is dark territory, so they hear the warrants and rollups from the other trains. Maybe that's one advantage to dark territory.
The crews around here usually talk to each other as they approach a meet and are aware of each other's presence. This is dark territory, so they hear the warrants and rollups from the other trains. Maybe that's one advantage to dark territory.
Question:
What are you talking about. Are you sure you watched the same video as everyone else. This is CTC with ABS signals. All the dark territory I have ever worked did not have a signal except at interlockings. This sure is not an interlocker. Can someone else please tell me if they have ever seen ABS signals in Dark Territory.
Very bad writing on my part. I apologize. What I meant to say in the second sentence is, "Around here, on the Madill Sub between Carrollton and Denison, it is dark territory, so they hear the warrants and rollups from the other trains."
Dont know which is scarier....this video or the one of Marco Andretti flipping over at 220 mph.
Both are scary.
Fortunately, all are ok.
BTW...anyone know of the findings of the 2005 crash at Momence, Il between NS and UP?
CShaveRR wrote: BaltACD wrote:4479 I would expect to find scraped.Now there's an understatement. In fact, it would probably be scraped so badly it might have to be scrapped!Sorry--couldn't resist
BaltACD wrote:4479 I would expect to find scraped.
Now there's an understatement. In fact, it would probably be scraped so badly it might have to be scrapped!
Sorry--couldn't resist
First please let me say I should have read this more closely and that I appoligize. Yes, the BNSF here in the DFW area is Dark Territory. The TRE ( Commuter trains) are CTC. The UP is CTC. DGNO well you cant even say they are dark territory or CTC, they are Yard Limits. Dart is ABS, they dont consider it to be CTC. Although the new lines are going to be cab signals. KCS is DTC, Yard Limits. Once again please except my deepest and sincere appolige. Sorry I cant spell everything correct. But then again why would I, I work billing out buses, so it is #'s.
railroadjj wrote: All the dark territory I have ever worked did not have a signal except at interlockings. This sure is not an interlocker. Can someone else please tell me if they have ever seen ABS signals in Dark Territory.
railroadjj,
You are correct on all counts: ABS signals and dark territory are mutually exclusive terms.
Indeed, dark territory means no signals.
Railfan1 wrote: CShaveRR wrote: BaltACD wrote:4479 I would expect to find scraped.Now there's an understatement. In fact, it would probably be scraped so badly it might have to be scrapped! Sorry--couldn't resist Naw, you could buff that out no problem.....
CShaveRR wrote: BaltACD wrote:4479 I would expect to find scraped.Now there's an understatement. In fact, it would probably be scraped so badly it might have to be scrapped! Sorry--couldn't resist
Duct tape and Windex will fix it right up.
Naw, you could buff that out no problem.....
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Railfan1 wrote: What do railroads teach about riding it out or bailing? What would you do if you were to "go by the books"?
What do railroads teach about riding it out or bailing? What would you do if you were to "go by the books"?
The GCOR rule book states that when in doubt take the safe course. There is no rule really saying whether you bail or ride it out. That decision comes from you and what you think is best. If you think you should jump, dont second think your self, as you may be stuck in the cab for a while. You you are going to try and ride it out, you better get comfortable it is going to be a long and hard right from that point on.
mj5890 wrote: BaltACD wrote:4059 would appear to be repairable. 4479 I would expect to find scraped. From those pictures, the crew of the 4479 is lucky to be alive.The crew of 4479 is alive because they bailed out, you can see it in the movie around :41 to :43 that they bailed out of the engineers side of the locomotive(good thing they did), its hard to see because of the low quality
BaltACD wrote:4059 would appear to be repairable. 4479 I would expect to find scraped. From those pictures, the crew of the 4479 is lucky to be alive.
4059 would appear to be repairable. 4479 I would expect to find scraped. From those pictures, the crew of the 4479 is lucky to be alive.
The crew of 4479 is alive because they bailed out, you can see it in the movie around :41 to :43 that they bailed out of the engineers side of the locomotive(good thing they did), its hard to see because of the low quality
That would be the 4059 crew. 4479 is the locomotive "we" are riding on, taking the siding.
Big Ed wrote: Photo of northbound train (with camera) lead engine BNSF 4479:http://www.locophotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=45962Photo of southbound train that ran the signal, lead engine BNSF 4059http://www.locophotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=45963
Photo of northbound train (with camera) lead engine BNSF 4479:
http://www.locophotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=45962
Photo of southbound train that ran the signal, lead engine BNSF 4059
http://www.locophotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=45963
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
youngengineer wrote:The signal you see at the beginning of the video is approach medium, yellow over yellow, be prepared to past next signal not exceeding 40 mph, and be prepared to take diverging route at prescribed speed for the turnout. It appears red on the video due to the qaulity but the signals have 3 lenses under each hood, top is green middle is yellow bottom is red, the middle lens is lit meaning that it is definetly a yellow over yellow. The signal before impact is red over green, proceed on divergin route, nothing unexpected with the signal. It is not until they notice the other train moving and the signal change to red over red, that anything really would cause alarm, we make meets several times every shift. If the dispatcher is good both trains generally are rolling towards each other when meeting and usually one train stops but not for long. Most sidings have crossings and blocking crosings is not an option.
The signal you see at the beginning of the video is approach medium, yellow over yellow, be prepared to past next signal not exceeding 40 mph, and be prepared to take diverging route at prescribed speed for the turnout. It appears red on the video due to the qaulity but the signals have 3 lenses under each hood, top is green middle is yellow bottom is red, the middle lens is lit meaning that it is definetly a yellow over yellow. The signal before impact is red over green, proceed on divergin route, nothing unexpected with the signal. It is not until they notice the other train moving and the signal change to red over red, that anything really would cause alarm, we make meets several times every shift. If the dispatcher is good both trains generally are rolling towards each other when meeting and usually one train stops but not for long. Most sidings have crossings and blocking crosings is not an option.
I agree...although on my PC I see Y/Y and then R/G clearly...no doubt about the colour.
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