Trains.com

Intermodal Trains: a few questions

5724 views
82 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    August 2003
  • From: Antioch, IL
  • 4,371 posts
Posted by greyhounds on Monday, May 21, 2007 10:20 PM
 futuremodal wrote:

This is where bi-modal chassis would work well.  And don't the Dutch trains still use single stack?

No Dave.  In the 27 years since the first "Modern" RoadRailers began commercial operation no one has come up with an effective way to use "bi-modal" technology to move containers.

It can be done, but it's very limited.  Containers come in various lengths and no one has been able to build a bi-modal chassis that can accomodate these various lenghts.  If you have 40' chassis and a 20' comes of the ship, you're screwed.  As you would be with 48's and 53's for domestic moves.

Remember that outfit up in Minnesota that had plans to use containers on RailRunner chassis?  They can provide their customer with just one length of container - because that's all those chassis could ever take.  That may work in the Minnesota application, but it would never work with a ship discharging differnt length containers.

"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.
  • Member since
    March 2002
  • 9,265 posts
Posted by edblysard on Monday, May 21, 2007 11:28 PM

Nick,

Obviously your intermodal guy isn't as up on the subject as Dave is, because Dave says it takes a lot longer...Big Smile [:D]

And of course, the time spotting the extra train at the dock, and the added congestion running a container train in a first and second sections doesn't count...

 

Then again, you would think Dave would have grasped the fact that the railroad part of all of this is already fluid, and that what we do is move the boxes from an start point, (port of entrance) to an end point, (distribution terminal) and that the "customer" is not the local Walmart or Sears, but the container distribution center, then by truck to the local distribution center.

Or that because most European countries are , for the most part, small enough to fit inside Texas, that it makes sense to run short, frequent trains...with their dense population centers, short distance between end points, and the fact that their railroads are subsidized by their governments, the need for their railroads to earn their keep is less.

 nbrodar wrote:

I had a rather fascinating conversation with our intermodal guy today.

There is virtually no difference in loading time between single and double stack.  The main difference is you need an extra person to apply and lock the IBCs.

The biggest consumer of time is the sorting of the boxes into destination blocks.  The boxes must be sorted into destination blocks, and then sub-destinations within those blocks.

Nick

23 17 46 11

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Cardiff, CA
  • 2,930 posts
Posted by erikem on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 12:07 AM
 nbrodar wrote:

I had a rather fascinating conversation with our intermodal guy today.

There is virtually no difference in loading time between single and double stack.  The main difference is you need an extra person to apply and lock the IBCs.

The biggest consumer of time is the sorting of the boxes into destination blocks.  The boxes must be sorted into destination blocks, and then sub-destinations within those blocks.

Nick

Thanks for the nice post.

Another big consumer of time may come up in a few years with mandatory screening of all containers arriving from abroad. The amount of pain may vary with the amount of pre-screening done before the container is loaded on the ship, what levels of screening are necessary and the perceived threat level.

  • Member since
    September 2002
  • From: Back home on the Chi to KC racetrack
  • 2,011 posts
Posted by edbenton on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 1:11 PM

Guess who is leading the fight against the screening of those containers also.  The big box retaliers like Wal-Mart and Home Depot are the biggest fighters of it.  If Wal-Mart was its own country it would have be the 8th largest in the world yet it does not want to secure its own country from someone slipping something into this country that could result in its destruction.

Always at war with those that think OTR trucking is EASY.
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 7:55 PM
 nbrodar wrote:

I had a rather fascinating conversation with our intermodal guy today.

There is virtually no difference in loading time between single and double stack.  The main difference is you need an extra person to apply and lock the IBCs.

You evidently didn't ask the questions I would have asked, settling for the facile rather than the pertinent.  Of course you can load 100 containers onto a double stack as fast as a single stack, if the containers are on the ready!  That's the facile summation. 

The pertinent summation is contained in your next paragraph....

The biggest consumer of time is the sorting of the boxes into destination blocks.  The boxes must be sorted into destination blocks, and then sub-destinations within those blocks.

Well there we go!  That's the pertinent take on the subject, aka the need for multiple pre-sorts so that the right container will go into the right platform on the right train, aka heavies on the bottom, lighter ones on the top, etc.  Thus, you have to go through multiple minutiations in the container marshalling yard just to make double stack appear more efficient.

Nick, why didn't you ask about the ship to rail time comparisons?  Because single stack would allow for unfettered direct ship to rail loading/unloading which allows a complete bypass of the container marshalling yard morass, something you can't effectively do with double stacks.  That's why any OA operator that shows up at the dock with only single stack platforms would easily take business from the big boys, John B's obscure Dutch example notwithstanding - having a dockside container crane moving an extra 15 feet on average is small potatoes compared to the cost of dockside space crammed 10 high with containers needing all sorts of sorting. 

I guess I dare not bring up the fact that railroads spent a whole lot of cash to make bridges and tunnels double stack compatible, the cost of which was/is passed on to shippers and taxpayers.

I also have that inside knowledge of BNSF refusing to allow a 3pl single stack operation over it's Stampede Pass line, a line without double stack clearance but with ample capacity.  It was all upside and no downside for BNSF, but apparently this almost religious dedication to the double stack concept prevented this new business, which of course has reverted to the mode of last resort.

BTW - Someone please buy Ed B a world atlas so that he can see just how well the continent of Europe would fit inside Texas.  In reality, you could fit a couple dozen Texas's inside of Europe. 

  • Member since
    August 2004
  • From: The 17th hole at TPC
  • 2,283 posts
Posted by n012944 on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 8:18 PM
 futuremodal wrote:

I also have that inside knowledge of BNSF refusing to allow a 3pl single stack operation over it's Stampede Pass line, a line without double stack clearance but with ample capacity.  It was all upside and no downside for BNSF, but apparently this almost religious dedication to the double stack concept prevented this new business, which of course has reverted to the mode of last resort.

And would this train just stop when it got to the end of the Stampede Pass line, or would it continue on east? 

Bert

An "expensive model collector"

  • Member since
    June 2005
  • From: Phoenixville, PA
  • 3,495 posts
Posted by nbrodar on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 8:25 PM

Oy,

We load both singles and doubles. 

Singles stacks need to be sorted too.  You can't just load them off the ship onto the railcars and expect them to be in the right order, unless the boxes are sorted prior to be loaded on the ship.  The boxes need to be sorted somewhere.

What about domestic boxes?  We mix domestic boxes and international boxes on the same train and same car.  Where would you suggest we do the mixing?  Although, I image you would say we should run them on seperate trains.

Nick

Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: MP 175.1 CN Neenah Sub
  • 4,917 posts
Posted by CNW 6000 on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 9:09 PM
Where do RoadRailers fit in this discussion?  It seems that they move quick and have good turnaround time.  May not entirely replace some stack trains but could that application be utilized more?

Dan

  • Member since
    October 2004
  • From: at the home of the MRL
  • 690 posts
Posted by JSGreen on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 9:15 PM

Personally, I'd like to know how FM plans on taking containers directly from a ship and in one swell foop deposit them onto the well decks...moer effeciently than is done now.  Going from an 800 ft long ship stacked 8 abreast and 10 deep, onto a 7500 ft long train just setting alongside the pier.... either single or double stack.  One reason they can get those things off so fast is the crane has a predictable and consistant destination...right underneith itself.  Are you planning on spotting the flats under the crane, and slowly pull forward as they are filled?  How ya gonna tell the guy driving the train when you are ready for him to go ahead?  And co-ordinate the four (or more) cranes working together...How much real estate do you suppose it would take to build a circular track around the pier like they do at the grain elevators?  And where, pray tell, will that real estate come from?   

 Also, I recall reading that some containers must be held awaiting customs clearance once unloaded.  THis would be especially a problem if it is not consistent, the held containers intermixed with the cleared containers.  

 THe shipping companies pay big bucks for every hour they are alongside the pier.  To be competative, if there was a faster way to do things, it has probably been or is being tried.  

...I may have a one track mind, but at least it's not Narrow (gauge) Wink.....
  • Member since
    August 2003
  • From: Antioch, IL
  • 4,371 posts
Posted by greyhounds on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 9:25 PM

 CNW 6000 wrote:
Where do RoadRailers fit in this discussion?  It seems that they move quick and have good turnaround time.  May not entirely replace some stack trains but could that application be utilized more?

They don't.  Please see my above post.

1) There is no bi-modal technology that can effectively handle containers except in very limited, specialized situations.

2) I worked for RoadRailer and I ran the the numbers vis a vis double stack several times.  Where the volume exists to support a full stack train, stacks are by far and away the cheapest way to move containers (except for the ship.)

"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.
  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: MP 175.1 CN Neenah Sub
  • 4,917 posts
Posted by CNW 6000 on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 9:52 PM
So that's more a niche market kind of thing.  After digging some more that does make sense.  I've learned a couple of things from this thread.  Hopefully it stays on topic...

Dan

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 10:10 PM
 JSGreen wrote:

Personally, I'd like to know how FM plans on taking containers directly from a ship and in one swell foop deposit them onto the well decks...moer effeciently than is done now.  Going from an 800 ft long ship stacked 8 abreast and 10 deep, onto a 7500 ft long train just setting alongside the pier.... either single or double stack.  One reason they can get those things off so fast is the crane has a predictable and consistant destination...right underneith itself.  Are you planning on spotting the flats under the crane, and slowly pull forward as they are filled?  How ya gonna tell the guy driving the train when you are ready for him to go ahead?  And co-ordinate the four (or more) cranes working together...How much real estate do you suppose it would take to build a circular track around the pier like they do at the grain elevators?  And where, pray tell, will that real estate come from?  

If a crane can take a container off an 800 ft ship and load it onto a chassis or a set of shuttle wagons as is done now, it's just as easy to load onto a dockside railcar.  You can fit at least two sets of tracks between the struts of the crane, and have several more outside the struts.  Keep in mind also that not all containers would be directly loaded ship to rail, some are staying local, some will be marshalled for double stack (I never said double stacks should be eliminated).  Communication between crane operator and train driver is elementary, I don't know why you'd think that'd be a problem.  It would be harder to facilitate on dock rail lines for those that jut out into the harbor, but rather easy for those that are parallel to the seaside.  And where is all this land to come from?  From the reduced need to marshall all offloaded containers - think of all the space that would become available if container storage was reduced.

Keep in mind also that the reason direct ship-to-railcar hasn't yet worked in the US is that, due to the predication to double stack well cars, you'd need to facilitate the oft-talked about twin lift where two 40's are already stacked together on the ship ready to be set into the well car.  To do so would require some major league logistics - that's why it is incredibly difficult for double stacks but immensely easy for single stacks.

 Also, I recall reading that some containers must be held awaiting customs clearance once unloaded.  THis would be especially a problem if it is not consistent, the held containers intermixed with the cleared containers.  

Held containers would just have to wait for the next train.

 THe shipping companies pay big bucks for every hour they are alongside the pier.  To be competative, if there was a faster way to do things, it has probably been or is being tried.  

Again, if the rail companies didn't virtually blackmail the shipping companies into using double stack exclusively via the closed access system, you'd see these changes occur almost immediately.

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 10:16 PM
 nbrodar wrote:

Oy,

We load both singles and doubles. 

Singles stacks need to be sorted too.  You can't just load them off the ship onto the railcars and expect them to be in the right order, unless the boxes are sorted prior to be loaded on the ship.  The boxes need to be sorted somewhere.

Ah vey,

When you have access to multiple sets of tracks dockside and the ability to move the trains back and forth as needed, you'll have enough "play" to allow the right containers on the right trains in the right spot.

What about domestic boxes?  We mix domestic boxes and international boxes on the same train and same car.  Where would you suggest we do the mixing?  Although, I image you would say we should run them on seperate trains.

Actually, I have a low opinion of the domestic container, prefering TOFC.  And TOFC spine cars can carry either containers or trailers.

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 10:31 PM
 greyhounds wrote:

 CNW 6000 wrote:
Where do RoadRailers fit in this discussion?  It seems that they move quick and have good turnaround time.  May not entirely replace some stack trains but could that application be utilized more?

They don't.  Please see my above post.

1) There is no bi-modal technology that can effectively handle containers except in very limited, specialized situations.

Ever heard of RailRunner?

http://www.railrunner.com/

RailRunner is specifically designed to effectively handle containers in very unlimited, unspecialized situations, aka anyhow everywhere!

2) I worked for RoadRailer and I ran the the numbers vis a vis double stack several times.  Where the volume exists to support a full stack train, stacks are by far and away the cheapest way to move containers (except for the ship.)

As I pointed out above, double stack takes a lot of pre-emptive sorting and marshalling just to make it appear efficient - those costs usually don't show up on the railroad's books, but always show up on the shipper's books.  And the RailRunner load factor beats the double stack load factor for moving primarily 40' containers, so there's a savings in fuel costs as well.  Add to that the elimination of the need for the consolidated super-sized intermodal terminal in favor of regular sidings at multiple locations, and bi-modal single stack beats double stack hands down.  RailRunner bogies are designed to handle 100+ mph speeds, something that can't be said for most well cars, thus the potential for increasing the number of cycles using RailRunner vs double stacks is also paramount.

The reason bi-modal single stack isn't used yet is the always present resistence closed access railroaders have for change, especially when that forward-thinking change represents a threat to older investments which still haven't been depreciated.  John Kneiling was a champion of pointing this out - railroader usually have to be dragged kicking and screaming to implement cutting edge evolutionary designs.

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 12:16 AM

My solution will be to put a great big magnet on each end of a container like a wooden child's toy train and run em.

You laugh. But get a good electro magnet going and see what you can do with them.

  • Member since
    January 2004
  • From: Frisco, TX
  • 483 posts
Posted by cordon on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 2:05 AM

Smile [:)]

Back to the double saw-by.  A few months ago I watched BNSF bring two trains to the Hebron siding in Plano, TX, on the Madill Sub, neither of which would fit into the siding.  No saw-by.  They ended up sending a light engine from Irving to pull the NB train back to Irving.  Considering how much time and trouble that cost, I concluded that there must be a huge resistance to doing a saw-by.

Smile [:)]  Smile [:)]

 

  • Member since
    June 2005
  • From: Phoenixville, PA
  • 3,495 posts
Posted by nbrodar on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 10:54 AM
 futuremodal wrote:

Ah vey,

When you have access to multiple sets of tracks dockside and the ability to move the trains back and forth as needed, you'll have enough "play" to allow the right containers on the right trains in the right spot.

So instead of sorting the just boxes at the gate, you're sorting both the railcars on the dock and the boxes as they come off the ship.  Sorting is sorting.

Actually, I have a low opinion of the domestic container, prefering TOFC.  And TOFC spine cars can carry either containers or trailers.

A box is box...You didn't answer the question.  I am aware of the fact that spine cars can carry both types of boxes (I do this for a living you know), but that's not the issue.  I asked...where you would mix them?

Nick

Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: NW Wisconsin
  • 3,857 posts
Posted by beaulieu on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 11:10 AM
Dave has also failed to answer the need to sort the boxes when they come off the ship. It would not surprise me if the first five containers off of the ship were going to 5 different cities, including a large percentage going to somewhere in the LA Basin. And then there are the reloads.
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 7:53 PM

I see no further reason to continue to participate in this discussion, the problems with where, when, how and what to do with the boxes will always be part of the business. Ship, Train, Port, Inland Railhead.. wherever.

When a box is loaded it needs to go somewhere. Whoever is at that somewhere is going to be waiting on that box. What is in that box is everyone's problem. It could be glowing nuclear warhead being smuggled into our USA or it could be bags of Birdseed that needs to be Customs approved or rejected. Where is that box is going and How it's going to get there is determined by the lowest transport bill. If it is cheapest to load it all onto a airplane and air-freight it.. so be it. It shall be done.

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 9:22 PM
 Safety Valve wrote:

My solution will be to put a great big magnet on each end of a container like a wooden child's toy train and run em.

You laugh. But get a good electro magnet going and see what you can do with them.

Actually what you're suggesting is to use the inherent structural quality of the container as a functioning part of the rolling stock itself.  You're not that far off from an idea that came close a while back - there was an outfit in California(?) that proposed using old logging railroad technology as the basis for a single stack container train.  Remember how some logging railroads used only the rail bogies as their "railcar", stacked the logs with one end of the stack resting on one rail bogie and the other half on the next rail bogie?  Others implemented a long drawbar between bogies to absorb draft and buff.  Well, these guys thought they could do the same with containers - have a set of bogies interconnected with a long drawbar, and rest one end of the container on one bogie and the back end on the trailing bogie.

The advantage is extremely low tare, but the disadvantage is the possibility of "twisting" a container when one bogie yaws one way and the next bogie yaws the other way.

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 9:34 PM
 nbrodar wrote:
 futuremodal wrote:

Ah vey,

When you have access to multiple sets of tracks dockside and the ability to move the trains back and forth as needed, you'll have enough "play" to allow the right containers on the right trains in the right spot.

So instead of sorting the just boxes at the gate, you're sorting both the railcars on the dock and the boxes as they come off the ship.  Sorting is sorting.

The railcars would be shunted back and forth as needed.  With three or five carsets, you're able to sort as you unload from the ship, aka the crane lift is the sort.  That way you eliminate the wasted time and energy taking each offloaded container and shuttling them to a storage area for sorting, then shuttling them further over to the railhead.

Actually, I have a low opinion of the domestic container, prefering TOFC.  And TOFC spine cars can carry either containers or trailers.

A box is box...You didn't answer the question.  I am aware of the fact that spine cars can carry both types of boxes (I do this for a living you know), but that's not the issue.  I asked...where you would mix them?

You were right the first time - I would prefer keeping a shorter consist intact, at least out of port, and letting that train run straight to smaller destination sets rather than being revamped at the single destination megaterminal.  You can always add TOFC or anything for that matter anywhere between port and ultimate destination(s).  Most trailers would be added at some inland terminal where all the warehouses and production facilities are located.  This can be accomplished pre-arrival of the container consist, and using DPU's at the head of each added section aids in keeping the labor costs down and quick resumption of travel.

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 9:38 PM

 beaulieu wrote:
Dave has also failed to answer the need to sort the boxes when they come off the ship. It would not surprise me if the first five containers off of the ship were going to 5 different cities, including a large percentage going to somewhere in the LA Basin. And then there are the reloads.

If the dock has room for five tracks, you can have five different sets of railcars for 5 different destinations.  Any extra goes to the shuttle chassis.

  • Member since
    August 2003
  • From: Antioch, IL
  • 4,371 posts
Posted by greyhounds on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 10:24 PM
 cordon wrote:

Smile [:)]

Back to the double saw-by.  A few months ago I watched BNSF bring two trains to the Hebron siding in Plano, TX, on the Madill Sub, neither of which would fit into the siding.  No saw-by.  They ended up sending a light engine from Irving to pull the NB train back to Irving.  Considering how much time and trouble that cost, I concluded that there must be a huge resistance to doing a saw-by.

Smile [:)]  Smile [:)]

Yep.  A "saw-by" with two person crews is going to take quite a while.

 

"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy