Murphy Siding wrote: gabe wrote: . By the way, how do you define "dead."? "Dead", in reference to the S.D. line I'm talking about, means you would have to locate the line by looking for familiar patterns in the treelines through cornfields. Once you get the scents of some "tracks", you would still need a metal detector, and a shovel, to find the existing rails under the brush. Another good way to find those rascals, is to find the tallest structure in a small town-the elevator. From there, there is usually an invisible line going in each direction, from nowhere to nowhere. In our part of the world, you can bet that no rail lines will be re-built to increase traffic flow. We don't have enough traffi now. That's the problem. Do you know if the re-opened lines you mention received any state funding, as part of the financing?
gabe wrote: . By the way, how do you define "dead."?
By the way, how do you define "dead."?
In our part of the world, you can bet that no rail lines will be re-built to increase traffic flow. We don't have enough traffi now. That's the problem. Do you know if the re-opened lines you mention received any state funding, as part of the financing?
Yes, I do know, mostly:
The Indiana Railroad resurection to create a bypass for its ex-Milwaukee line was not financed by the State but was financed by a coal company to encourage competition.
The Indiana Railroad resurection from Indianapolis to Tipton was self-financed. But, this line was not nearly as dead as per "your definition." I think on the whole, it was in pretty good shape.
I am certain both the Delaware and P&W lines referred to above had substantial state funding.
I don't think the Missouri Central received state funding.
The talk of resurecting the ex-IC line in Souther Illinois/Indiana will probably seek state funding.
Gabe
P.S. I wonder what the law is on abandoned rail property. Some forms of abandoned property, people are free to simply take. With scrap as high as it is, I am surprised you could have 100 miles or rail burried in the mud--to say nothing of other metal aspects of the line--without someone trying to get their hands on the scrap. Anyone want to join me in a legal research/salvage venture?
Hmm . . . imagining like J.D. on "Scrubs" . . . I wonder if you could have a company that specialized in that sort of thing . . .
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Siding wrote: Modelcar and gabe mentioned a couple of short, 5 to 10 mile, rail lines that were brought back from extinction to haul coal from inactive coal mines. The short distance, and the instant traffic involved in plans like that sound like no-brainer decissions to me. What about a 40-50 mile line, being brought back from extinction, to haul only grain, and possibly service an upcoming ethanol plant? Has anyone heard of a similar grain collecting branch being re-opened?
Also, now that I think of it, there was a line in New England recently brought back from the dead by the Providence and Worchester--I think. I seem to remember that it was a 20 mile line or so. I think there was a picture of the first run in the last or second to last Trains.
About five years or so ago, I think they reopened a line in Delaware. But, that was many moons ago, and I seem to have fogotten the details.
By the way, how do you define "dead."
Actually, although the Indiana Rail Road line I was referring to was once owned by a coal company and led to a coal mine, it is not used for coal service now, and that was not why it was brought back from the dead. The Indiana Rail Road uses it to expidite interchange between its now-ex Milwaukee Road Chicago-Louisville line to the western half of its Effingham - Indianapolis line. The primary use of this line is bridge traffic for PRB coal to a power plant in Newton--although I have been told it has been used for other traffic as well.
There is currently talk of bringing a 20-mile ex-IC Evansville line back from the dead--and I do mean "dead" as the tracks have been pulled. This is the line that Ed gives great stories about. The goal of this talked-of rebirth is to serve an ethenol plant and a grain silo.
Also, I am pretty sure when the ex-SP , ex Rock Island St. Louis-Kansas City line was "dead" before the current operater/Missouri Central opened up about a 100 mile segment of this line. I know coal was involved in that decision, but I think they are hauling other goods as well.
Finally, the Indiana Railroad brought a line back from the dead for a very short time that ran from Indianapolis to Tipton, IN (about 45 miles). Although it served a power plant about 20 miles up the line, the primary decision to try to make a go of this line had little if anything to do with coal. However and sadly, because NS did not cooperate with haulage in Tipton, that phoenix was not to be. I think CSX's ownership of INRD doomed the rebirth of this line.
I am really upset about this, as this line is less than a half a mile from my house, and it would be great to take walks and see trains on it.
This is the link to the map Murphy is referring to SDDOT - Publications
The line from Elk Point to Sioux City is in excellent shape as BNSF installed new CWR a couple of years ago. They also put in a new siding -- I would guess about 8000 feet -- at North Sioux City. It has been years since I paid any attention to the state owned line from Elk Point to Canton, so I'm not sure what its condition might be.
Dakguy201 wrote: I understand an ethanol plant would go a long way toward making this idea viable. However, the discussion of the possibilities for grain shipments left me confused. This line connects to the BNSF at Yankton, and you must use the BNSF to get to Elk Point. From there, it is the D&I to Sioux City. So to get to those five (I think the real number is two) Class I's in Sioux City, you need track rights from the BNSF. Why would the BNSF give you track rights so you can connect with the UP?
I understand an ethanol plant would go a long way toward making this idea viable. However, the discussion of the possibilities for grain shipments left me confused. This line connects to the BNSF at Yankton, and you must use the BNSF to get to Elk Point. From there, it is the D&I to Sioux City.
So to get to those five (I think the real number is two) Class I's in Sioux City, you need track rights from the BNSF. Why would the BNSF give you track rights so you can connect with the UP?
I also read that, as part of the sale of the Core lines to BNSF, trackage rights were to given from Napa Junction, to Sioux City. The state, and BNSF are going to reconstruct the interchange at Napa Junction.
nanaimo73 wrote: I believe D&I only owns Sioux Falls to Dell Rapids, and leases Canton-Elk Point and Hawarden-Beresford from the State, and operates through trackage rights on BNSF Sioux Falls-Canton and Elk Point-Sioux City. Did BNSF buy both of those segments from the State last year ?
I believe D&I only owns Sioux Falls to Dell Rapids, and leases Canton-Elk Point and Hawarden-Beresford from the State, and operates through trackage rights on BNSF Sioux Falls-Canton and Elk Point-Sioux City.
Did BNSF buy both of those segments from the State last year ?
This is from a post on 5-01-05 by pltbrnch, on a thread titled BNSF & The State of South Dakota, which I am not smart enough to link to, or quote from.()
The state and BNSF announced the agreement yesterday (sale worth over $41 million to South Dakota), both offering glowing comments about the other. Pending STB approval, this deal settles the lawsuits the two sides had against each other. Lines covered are ex-Milwaukee Road lines, Aberdeen-Mitchell-Sioux City, and Canton-Mitchell-Sioux Falls. South Dakota purchased the lines for about $15 million after the Milwaukee embargo in 1980, and contracted with BN to run them. BN had a purchase option and wanted to excercise it recently, but due to the growing beligerent attitude by BNSF regarding grain-rate pricing and trackage rights issues for smaller companies (DM&E, Dakota Southern, etc) the state refused to sell these lines to BNSF. The whole thing was headed to Federal Court before the agreement was announced. The agreement also provides haulage rights for Dakota Southern, Dakota and Iowa and Dakota, Minnesota and Eastern over the core system and gives possible new life to two other state-owned branches (Mitchell to Kadoka and Yankton to Platte) that have long been out of service due partly to BNSF pricing policy making hauling grain outside of 110-car shuttle trains prohibitive.
If the above is correct, it appears the line from Napa Junction to Ravena would have an outlet to Sioux City. Can anybody confirm if the above info is correct?
....Guess as a rail fan I must say, bring all of the remaining ones back as much as possible.
Quentin
Modelcar wrote: ......Rail lines returning from the dead: I might as well add this event. A coal branch in southwestern Pennsylvania near Shanksville...yes the famous one of Flight 93....had a coal operation that ended 8 or more years ago and has been dormant since....Rails were obscured down in the mud and covered with brush growth in some areas, etc....Typical of what one looks like in abandoned stage.Now after some rehabilitation of the ROW and ditches and all involved it has been brought back to life with the rebuild and already has supported a 70 car coal train with six axle engines.I understand it belongs to PBS Coal now. It is about 8 miles in length and connects to CSX, S&C branch at Coleman, Pa. Anyone that wants a look on satellite can find it just west of Shanksville....{Coal loading tiple and sidings there}, and the other end is generally west at Coleman. The S&C branch of CSX runs between Johnstown and Rockwood, Pa.
......Rail lines returning from the dead: I might as well add this event. A coal branch in southwestern Pennsylvania near Shanksville...yes the famous one of Flight 93....had a coal operation that ended 8 or more years ago and has been dormant since....Rails were obscured down in the mud and covered with brush growth in some areas, etc....Typical of what one looks like in abandoned stage.
Now after some rehabilitation of the ROW and ditches and all involved it has been brought back to life with the rebuild and already has supported a 70 car coal train with six axle engines.
I understand it belongs to PBS Coal now. It is about 8 miles in length and connects to CSX, S&C branch at Coleman, Pa. Anyone that wants a look on satellite can find it just west of Shanksville....{Coal loading tiple and sidings there}, and the other end is generally west at Coleman. The S&C branch of CSX runs between Johnstown and Rockwood, Pa.
The Indiana Railroad rehabilitated a very similar line to this in Southern Indiana about 5-10 years ago. It now gets a lot of traffic.
nanaimo73 wrote: Dakguy201 wrote:Murphy -- I'm in a small town in southern Union County. Do you have any idea what the "gorilla" development down here is going to be? I'm guessing it is a power plant, which would mean a major increase in traffic on the D&I.Is that what was discussed here ? -http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/948099/ShowPost.aspx
Dakguy201 wrote:Murphy -- I'm in a small town in southern Union County. Do you have any idea what the "gorilla" development down here is going to be? I'm guessing it is a power plant, which would mean a major increase in traffic on the D&I.
Is that what was discussed here ? -
http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/948099/ShowPost.aspx
Given the area they are looking at, I'd say the project needs water, cheap land,low taxes, available workforce, and transportation accesability. I'd put my bet on something ag realated, ethanol, biodiesel, etc..
Does the D&I own the track from Canton to Sioux City? If so, it would seem this site may be accesable from BNSF, from the west, of D&I( / UP / CN ) from the south. I thought the D&I was in pretty rough shape in that area, with lots of slow orders. Has that changed, or is that only in the area north of the BNSF line from Mitchell?
Nanaimo, "gorilla" is the local name for that project in the clipping. All that is known is that:
A front company is writing options to purchase roughly 5 square miles of property in a specific location.
This is not the only area of the country being considered.
Access to rail and the Interstate system is required.
Access to as much as 20 million gallons of water a day is important.
To me, that screams power plant, but there is a lot of other guesses going around. The land involved is good farmland, but the price of the option is still very considerably above market. And, yes, without even knowing what they are dealing with, there are already some NIMBY's pointing out possible effects on a small, rural county seat town.
(Nordique, thanks for the answer.)
1435mm wrote: If the traffic is there, any line can be brought back from the dead, even abandoned lines. But that is a BIG "if." I think the question you are asking is if the traffic will support a line that depends virtually 100% on originating grain (I am not familiar with the specifics of the line you are asking about and I am not commenting on it specifically).
If the traffic is there, any line can be brought back from the dead, even abandoned lines. But that is a BIG "if." I think the question you are asking is if the traffic will support a line that depends virtually 100% on originating grain (I am not familiar with the specifics of the line you are asking about and I am not commenting on it specifically).
Dale,
The CNW also had rights on the IC from Sioux City to Wren- the CNW line then diverged on the south side of the GN/IC interlocker to swing to the northwest and briefly parallel the GN(between the GN and Hwy 75) all the way up to Merrill before breaking away.
Here is a link to a good shot of the interlocking at Wren- you can see the immediate GN/IC diamond- then just beyond that one can partially see the diverging CNW line (the poor raster of the picture and the interlocking shack obscure a clear view of the diverging switch.)
http://72.185.86.34/ftparchive/Chuck%20Lyman/headend%20of%20%2311%20at%20Wren%20tower,%20Iowa%20Div,%20Cherokee%20Dist[1].%20(IC_%20CNW_BN%20interlocki.jpg
Murphy, the line you refer to running thru Storm Lake and the one I refer to running thru LeMars are the same line. It now belongs to the CN.
A map of current Iowa railroads is here: Iowa Railroad Maps - Office of Rail Transportation One of the things it shows pretty clearly is that I was wrong -- the old IC was the owner of the tracks between Sioux City and LeMars and the C&NW merely the holder of track rights.
I believe that answers my question about the abandoned Milwaukee route -- it never existed, but instead it is the IC/CN route.
There were two lines running north from Sioux City, both of which are still in use. The Great Northern line (BNSF) goes up to Willmar. The other line was Illinois Central, now CN, to Le Mars and Fort Dodge. The CSPM&O (C&NW) had rights on IC to Le Mars, which UP now has to reach St. Paul. The C&NW itself also had rights to Wren, part of a line to Hawarden, IA, abandoned in 1978. I don't know which line the C&NW had rights on.
I believe there was only one bridge across the Missouri into Nebraska, which was GN (?), with CB&Q and CSPM&O having rights on.
I thought CN still had the old IC line that ran down to Sioux City from Storm Lake. I've never had a chance to explore rail lines around Sioux City. It's probably worth the 90 mile drive. A couple of years ago, I did see a GTW locomotive doing some switching, so I assumed it was a CN train, but who knows.
Where's a good railroad map guy when you need him? (Dale?)
I believe the CN has track rights to Sioux City but does not use them. Prior to 1985 the IC ran from Dubuque to LeMars in Iowa, but I believe their access to Sioux City was via the C&NW. In that year, the Chicago, Central & Pacific was spun out of the IC as a seperate company running that route. Presumably, the track rights went with it.
Then, in 1996, the IC reacquired the Chicago, Central and operated it as a subsidiary. That remained the situation until the CN takeover.
What I am puzzled about is I believe the track rights were a substitute for the abandonment of a parallel Sioux City/LeMars line that belonged to the Milwaukee. Did such a line once exist or is that something I am confused about?
Dakguy201 wrote: So to get to those five (I think the real number is two) Class I's in Sioux City, you need track rights from the BNSF.
So to get to those five (I think the real number is two) Class I's in Sioux City, you need track rights from the BNSF.
Interesting....I did some more searching about info pertinent to this. From the book Rails Through the Grass, The Milwaukee's branch to Platte, by Rick A. Van Zee: The last year of operation, 1987, approximately 150 grain cars came off the line. A couple years earlier, it seems that figure may have been double that amount. From VanZee: "End of the line....maintenance.....investment...elevators were too small...only one connection with one railroad (BN)....farmers discovered trucking their own grain to market" From the book, a quote from Alex Huff, the man who ran the line in 1987, and is trying to get it started again: "Our real competition was the truck right at the farmer's gate".
I see now, that the proposal is to only re-open 50 some miles of the original 93 mile branch. That would eliminate about half the elevators that shipped grain back in the 80's, assuming they are even still there, and interested in putting back in their spur tracks.
Related to the article Dale linked- I went to high school with the State guy, Bruce Lindholm.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Murphy Siding wrote: From what I've seen, the line is pretty well gone, having been reclaimed by the prairie. All paved roads over the line have been paved right over the rails, etc... What I've read, is that the line is 60# rail. Consider that in the 70's and 80's,Milwaukee Road probably did no maintenence. In the last 27 or so years,there might have been a little maintenance done when Huff ran the road for a few years. The bridges, as I recall, are mostly short, wood piling bridges, over little creeks, all 100+ years old(?). Even with an ethanol plant, it's hard to imagine enough out-going freight to sustain such a line. I doubt that much corn would ship in to the plant, as everything for miles around is corn fields. The railroad would be 100% dependant on BNSF, for shipment to the outside world. BNSF is also who this railroad would be trying to take business away from. Interesting, as well, is that BN looked at buying this line at one time, and passed on it. What kind of outgoing freight numbers does a typical ethanol plant produce? There has been some discussion on this board about the value of ethanol. Note in the news article, that they would burn corn, to supply 1/3 of their fuel needs!!
From what I've seen, the line is pretty well gone, having been reclaimed by the prairie. All paved roads over the line have been paved right over the rails, etc... What I've read, is that the line is 60# rail. Consider that in the 70's and 80's,Milwaukee Road probably did no maintenence. In the last 27 or so years,there might have been a little maintenance done when Huff ran the road for a few years. The bridges, as I recall, are mostly short, wood piling bridges, over little creeks, all 100+ years old(?).
Even with an ethanol plant, it's hard to imagine enough out-going freight to sustain such a line. I doubt that much corn would ship in to the plant, as everything for miles around is corn fields. The railroad would be 100% dependant on BNSF, for shipment to the outside world. BNSF is also who this railroad would be trying to take business away from. Interesting, as well, is that BN looked at buying this line at one time, and passed on it. What kind of outgoing freight numbers does a typical ethanol plant produce?
There has been some discussion on this board about the value of ethanol. Note in the news article, that they would burn corn, to supply 1/3 of their fuel needs!!
That last bit about being 1/3 powered by corn stalks to me is a "tell" that this thing is a giant boondoggle from the get go. Unless there's something else there not mentioned in the article, they're paying(!) the State $1.4 million for the line, then they'll have to spend or borrow $20 million(?) to bring the line up to bare bones operating status, and all this for an ethanol plant that will have the highest energy costs of any such venture, presumably predicated on *selling* CO2 credits (a market that is ripe for corruption on a massive scale).
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