Murphy Siding wrote: Modelcar and gabe mentioned a couple of short, 5 to 10 mile, rail lines that were brought back from extinction to haul coal from inactive coal mines. The short distance, and the instant traffic involved in plans like that sound like no-brainer decissions to me. What about a 40-50 mile line, being brought back from extinction, to haul only grain, and possibly service an upcoming ethanol plant? Has anyone heard of a similar grain collecting branch being re-opened?
Actually, although the Indiana Rail Road line I was referring to was once owned by a coal company and led to a coal mine, it is not used for coal service now, and that was not why it was brought back from the dead. The Indiana Rail Road uses it to expidite interchange between its now-ex Milwaukee Road Chicago-Louisville line to the western half of its Effingham - Indianapolis line. The primary use of this line is bridge traffic for PRB coal to a power plant in Newton--although I have been told it has been used for other traffic as well.
There is currently talk of bringing a 20-mile ex-IC Evansville line back from the dead--and I do mean "dead" as the tracks have been pulled. This is the line that Ed gives great stories about. The goal of this talked-of rebirth is to serve an ethenol plant and a grain silo.
Also, I am pretty sure when the ex-SP , ex Rock Island St. Louis-Kansas City line was "dead" before the current operater/Missouri Central opened up about a 100 mile segment of this line. I know coal was involved in that decision, but I think they are hauling other goods as well.
Finally, the Indiana Railroad brought a line back from the dead for a very short time that ran from Indianapolis to Tipton, IN (about 45 miles). Although it served a power plant about 20 miles up the line, the primary decision to try to make a go of this line had little if anything to do with coal. However and sadly, because NS did not cooperate with haulage in Tipton, that phoenix was not to be. I think CSX's ownership of INRD doomed the rebirth of this line.
I am really upset about this, as this line is less than a half a mile from my house, and it would be great to take walks and see trains on it.
Gabe
Also, now that I think of it, there was a line in New England recently brought back from the dead by the Providence and Worchester--I think. I seem to remember that it was a 20 mile line or so. I think there was a picture of the first run in the last or second to last Trains.
About five years or so ago, I think they reopened a line in Delaware. But, that was many moons ago, and I seem to have fogotten the details.
By the way, how do you define "dead."
gabe wrote: . By the way, how do you define "dead."?
By the way, how do you define "dead."?
In our part of the world, you can bet that no rail lines will be re-built to increase traffic flow. We don't have enough traffi now. That's the problem. Do you know if the re-opened lines you mention received any state funding, as part of the financing?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Siding wrote: gabe wrote: . By the way, how do you define "dead."? "Dead", in reference to the S.D. line I'm talking about, means you would have to locate the line by looking for familiar patterns in the treelines through cornfields. Once you get the scents of some "tracks", you would still need a metal detector, and a shovel, to find the existing rails under the brush. Another good way to find those rascals, is to find the tallest structure in a small town-the elevator. From there, there is usually an invisible line going in each direction, from nowhere to nowhere. In our part of the world, you can bet that no rail lines will be re-built to increase traffic flow. We don't have enough traffi now. That's the problem. Do you know if the re-opened lines you mention received any state funding, as part of the financing?
Yes, I do know, mostly:
The Indiana Railroad resurection to create a bypass for its ex-Milwaukee line was not financed by the State but was financed by a coal company to encourage competition.
The Indiana Railroad resurection from Indianapolis to Tipton was self-financed. But, this line was not nearly as dead as per "your definition." I think on the whole, it was in pretty good shape.
I am certain both the Delaware and P&W lines referred to above had substantial state funding.
I don't think the Missouri Central received state funding.
The talk of resurecting the ex-IC line in Souther Illinois/Indiana will probably seek state funding.
P.S. I wonder what the law is on abandoned rail property. Some forms of abandoned property, people are free to simply take. With scrap as high as it is, I am surprised you could have 100 miles or rail burried in the mud--to say nothing of other metal aspects of the line--without someone trying to get their hands on the scrap. Anyone want to join me in a legal research/salvage venture?
Hmm . . . imagining like J.D. on "Scrubs" . . . I wonder if you could have a company that specialized in that sort of thing . . .
gabe wrote: P.S. I wonder what the law is on abandoned rail property. Some forms of abandoned property, people are free to simply take. With scrap as high as it is, I am surprised you could have 100 miles or rail burried in the mud--to say nothing of other metal aspects of the line--without someone trying to get their hands on the scrap. Anyone want to join me in a legal research/salvage venture?
Murphy Siding wrote: gabe wrote: P.S. I wonder what the law is on abandoned rail property. Some forms of abandoned property, people are free to simply take. With scrap as high as it is, I am surprised you could have 100 miles or rail burried in the mud--to say nothing of other metal aspects of the line--without someone trying to get their hands on the scrap. Anyone want to join me in a legal research/salvage venture?I think there's 3 guys over in Germany that may be able to help you with the fieldwork on that one
They got an 18-month suspended sentence . . . the bank is worth the risk!
gabe wrote: Murphy Siding wrote: gabe wrote: P.S. I wonder what the law is on abandoned rail property. Some forms of abandoned property, people are free to simply take. With scrap as high as it is, I am surprised you could have 100 miles or rail burried in the mud--to say nothing of other metal aspects of the line--without someone trying to get their hands on the scrap. Anyone want to join me in a legal research/salvage venture?I think there's 3 guys over in Germany that may be able to help you with the fieldwork on that oneThey got an 18-month suspended sentence . . . the bank is worth the risk!
KCS has an active project to reopen the line between Roseville and Victoria in Texas. Last time I drove along the UP line between Roseville and Flatonia (along which KCS has trackage rights), there was a KCS train in every siding. I have heard that the KCS run from Houston to Corpus Christi takes about 36 hours due to congestion. Roseville/Victoria will really help KCS on that time.
dd
Gabe:
(1) Abandoned rail free for the taking. Watched any of the Honey Creek RR case back there.?? (One construction company found out it ain't free and some of your trade are gainfully employed because of the ongoing court case.)
(2) Missouri Central is dead for now. Thanks to AMEREN, it goes no further east than Union and is run under contract by INRD. Until AMEREN goes away, it won't return. It is a power company's leveraged plaything.
MTB wrote:The Wisconsin Southern has a proposal on the table to re-install the 47 mile branch between Monroe and Mineral Point. Also a short brach off of this from Gratiot to Shullsburg. The Mineral Point line was removed in 1988 and is an ATV trail. The branch to shullsburg was removed in 1956 and is used in some spots by farmers to access their fields and will need to be purchased from the landowners.The need to do this is to haul grain.The WSOR will soon have at least 4 ethanol plants on their system. Funding is to be 80% state and federal and the other 20% will be WSOR,local transit commissions that own the right of way, and anyone else they can sucker in to help pay for it. Will it happen? Wisconsin has money problems like every other state so who knows for sure.
Gabe:I will be very surprized to see the old IC line put back in place. I would even buy the tank of gas for us to go take a look at it.
BTW, as our legal counsel, what is the situation with abandoned ROW? Who owns it and how does a railroad get it back?
Oh, there is talk up here in Northern Indiana...just talk of NS resurrecting the old Kankakee South Bend line from Wheatfield to North Judson, in order to connect with the C&I line which would connect with NS ex NKP line at Thomaston. That would be quite a round about routing, but who knows? The ex Conrail line to Chicago is getting very busy, the NKP line thru Valpo is seeing more and more trains and North Judson and Wheatfield could be filled in fairly inexpensively. Also talk of the ex Conrail line from Schnieder to Danville so NS can run more directly from Elkhart to Decatur.
Just talk.
ed
nordique72 wrote:The rebuilding of the Rosenberg-Victoria "Macaroni" line as mentioned earlier is what I would call a full scale resurrection effort- in the presentation I attended here in Houston a few months back by a representative from KCS stated they will be completely ripping out the ancient existing track structure (where it's still in- ancient 90 lb. rail, rotten ties and nonexistent ballast) and replacing/and or rebuilding the entire 100 miles of ROW with new 136 Lb. CWR and concrete ties. The KCS anticipates the time savings will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 6-8 hours as opposed to the old route over the UP to Flatonia and south. Some work has already been started such as brush clearing and preliminary grading of certain areas of ROW slated for rebuilding- but the hard part will be rebuilding the areas that have been torn out for nearly 20 years, although the remains of the roadbed still exist.
Do they have the money lined up for the project ? FRA loan ?
Murphy Siding wrote: MTB wrote:The Wisconsin Southern has a proposal on the table to re-install the 47 mile branch between Monroe and Mineral Point. Also a short brach off of this from Gratiot to Shullsburg. The Mineral Point line was removed in 1988 and is an ATV trail. The branch to shullsburg was removed in 1956 and is used in some spots by farmers to access their fields and will need to be purchased from the landowners.The need to do this is to haul grain.The WSOR will soon have at least 4 ethanol plants on their system. Funding is to be 80% state and federal and the other 20% will be WSOR,local transit commissions that own the right of way, and anyone else they can sucker in to help pay for it. Will it happen? Wisconsin has money problems like every other state so who knows for sure. Would this line be all grain and ethanol business, or is there industry to tap for traffic as well?
There is no industry here at the current time. Wisconsin doesn't have alot of industry compared to some other states and this corner of the state really has none. Alot of small rural towns also. Rail service to Monroe (city of 10,000)was dead until the ethanol plant was built. There maybe some concrete/ready mix plants they could serve at this time. The hope is industry will come when the tracks are put back. WSOR is saying there are grain shippers lined up to move 5-6,000 cars of grain a year.
MP173 wrote: Gabe:I will be very surprized to see the old IC line put back in place. I would even buy the tank of gas for us to go take a look at it.BTW, as our legal counsel, what is the situation with abandoned ROW? Who owns it and how does a railroad get it back? Oh, there is talk up here in Northern Indiana...just talk of NS resurrecting the old Kankakee South Bend line from Wheatfield to North Judson, in order to connect with the C&I line which would connect with NS ex NKP line at Thomaston. That would be quite a round about routing, but who knows? The ex Conrail line to Chicago is getting very busy, the NKP line thru Valpo is seeing more and more trains and North Judson and Wheatfield could be filled in fairly inexpensively. Also talk of the ex Conrail line from Schnieder to Danville so NS can run more directly from Elkhart to Decatur.Just talk.ed
Ed,
The legal question is too complex for my particular expertise--I specialize in being the hated person who makes people miserable after a controversy has been initiated, not knowing how to circumvent particular problems to avoid a controversy.
I know there is a variety of different legal rights associated with such ROWs. Some I am familiar with, most I am not. It would certainly help the railroad if the line were "rail banked," but even then, you are going to have a lot of trouble with lawyers in bringing things back. Of course, eminenet domain still plays a role even if the line is not rail banked. If railroads would be willing to pay the onerous legal fees and expenses, I suppose there would not be much stopping them from building a line right through my living room--my wife would be so mad that I would refuse to move, not out of principle but the desire to be able to watch trains close up from the comfort of my couch.
As Michael Sol seems to know a lot more about these particular matters than I, perhaps he would have a wider grasp of the subject.
As far as the resurection of part of the ex-IC line, you buy the gas, I will buy the champain.
I am with you in saying that it is not going to happen, and the NS statements are "just talk." However, I think you might be surprised should rebuilding become a paradigm. Traffic continues to surge. I think once two or three people start doing, you are going to see a lot of other people doing it. I think there are a lot of forces that might make rebuilding of some lines a distinct possibility.
That having been said, I wouldn't be surprised about NS rebuilding the line; I would be shocked, shocked, shocked to see the IC line return.
Dale,
The KCS recently did get an FRA loan to help pay for the Macaroni line rebuild. I can't recall the exact amount that was acquired, but thanks to the loan being approved they were able to start work on the project.
Thanks Nordique,
KCS must have the highest dept/earnings ratio of all of the class 1s.
I saw a newspaper article a couple of weeks ago mentioning their stock was significantly higher than it should be, as speculators wait for one of the big guys to make a move.
Speaking of lines returning from the dead -- the rail line across the Korean DMZ reopened yesterday for "test runs." That line has been closed for political reasons since 1951. And those political reasons involved a lot of dead.
......Amen to that....If it wasn't for us, those rail lines would not now exist. It makes me feel good they once again may become active. That might start or at least help to start somekind of return to normalcy in the northern sector. Guess it's worth the risk of the effort.
Quentin
How did you do in your case we discussed last summer, against a certain Chciago based company? I noticed there was considerable press about a florida attorney who received considerable fee settlement. Was that your case?
MP173 wrote: Gabe:How did you do in your case we discussed last summer, against a certain Chciago based company? I noticed there was considerable press about a florida attorney who received considerable fee settlement. Was that your case? ed
It went too well. I did very well and then got screwed by my employer. You may notice I now have a new job.
Dakguy201 wrote:Murphy -- I'm in a small town in southern Union County. Do you have any idea what the "gorilla" development down here is going to be? I'm guessing it is a power plant, which would mean a major increase in traffic on the D&I.
From the June 13th, KELO TV website:06/13/2007
'Gorilla Project' Revealed
The first oil refinery to be built in the US in more than 30 years could be coming to KELOLAND.That's the big mystery project in Elk Point. But Wednesday, the state finally revealed everything involved in bringing Hyperion's energy center and oil refinery to South Dakota.Dallas based company, Hyperion Resources, Inc., is looking to build the first and most environmentally sound oil refinery in the United States since 1976. Locations in two other states are being considered to be home to the refinery.The construction of the $8 billion refinery would employ between 4,500 and 10,000 people. Once in operation, it would employ about 1,800 people with paying jobs between $20 to $30 per hour. The energy center would refine about 400,000 barrels of oil to be processed into clean, green transportation fuels.The proposed refinery would use only the best available environmental technologies and promises to go the extra mile to protect the environment, particularly air and water quality.A final decision for the location should be made within the next 12 months.
It sounds like there's a possibility of seeing an increase in railroad traffic in the far southeast corner of S.D. Doesn't a refinery usually mean lots of rail traffic? It can't all be done by pipeline, can it. Seems that a good place for an ethanol plant would be accross the street from a new refinery.
Dakguy201 wrote: I understand an ethanol plant would go a long way toward making this idea viable. However, the discussion of the possibilities for grain shipments left me confused. This line connects to the BNSF at Yankton, and you must use the BNSF to get to Elk Point. From there, it is the D&I to Sioux City. So to get to those five (I think the real number is two) Class I's in Sioux City, you need track rights from the BNSF. Why would the BNSF give you track rights so you can connect with the UP?
I understand an ethanol plant would go a long way toward making this idea viable. However, the discussion of the possibilities for grain shipments left me confused. This line connects to the BNSF at Yankton, and you must use the BNSF to get to Elk Point. From there, it is the D&I to Sioux City.
So to get to those five (I think the real number is two) Class I's in Sioux City, you need track rights from the BNSF. Why would the BNSF give you track rights so you can connect with the UP?
Here's the deal with this line. It is ex-MILW largely composed of 65# rail and crappy ties. Only a short portion is currently in service. There is a large ethanol plant coming that will substantially increase traffic including grain, DDGs, ethanol and possibly some other stuff.
As far as the trackage rights go, the State of South Dakota owned a substantial amount of former MILW trackage which they leased to BNSF. A few years back the lease came up for renewal and BNSF made a deal with the State to buy the track. As part of that deal BNSF was required to give trackage rights to interchange for short lines in SD including Dakota Southern (DSRC). My guess is that they have BNSF and DM&E/IC&E interchanges via this route. UP is possible, but unlikely.
LC
Murphy Siding wrote: Dakguy201 wrote:Murphy -- I'm in a small town in southern Union County. Do you have any idea what the "gorilla" development down here is going to be? I'm guessing it is a power plant, which would mean a major increase in traffic on the D&I. From the June 13th, KELO TV website:06/13/2007 'Gorilla Project' RevealedThe first oil refinery to be built in the US in more than 30 years could be coming to KELOLAND.That's the big mystery project in Elk Point. But Wednesday, the state finally revealed everything involved in bringing Hyperion's energy center and oil refinery to South Dakota.Dallas based company, Hyperion Resources, Inc., is looking to build the first and most environmentally sound oil refinery in the United States since 1976. Locations in two other states are being considered to be home to the refinery.The construction of the $8 billion refinery would employ between 4,500 and 10,000 people. Once in operation, it would employ about 1,800 people with paying jobs between $20 to $30 per hour. The energy center would refine about 400,000 barrels of oil to be processed into clean, green transportation fuels.The proposed refinery would use only the best available environmental technologies and promises to go the extra mile to protect the environment, particularly air and water quality.A final decision for the location should be made within the next 12 months. It sounds like there's a possibility of seeing an increase in railroad traffic in the far southeast corner of S.D. Doesn't a refinery usually mean lots of rail traffic? It can't all be done by pipeline, can it. Seems that a good place for an ethanol plant would be accross the street from a new refinery.
Good luck on the refinery. Some people have been trying for a while to build a refinery in Arizona.http://www.arizonacleanfuels.com/
At 400,000 BPD, there could be significant amount of LPG cars leaving, as well as some asphalt, and distillates. There could also be some catalyst cars coming in. However, a vast majority of a fuel refinery's output will leave by pipeline. I am sure all, or very close to it, of the oil will come in by pipeline.
"No soup for you!" - Yev Kassem (from Seinfeld)
There is a new pipeline, which at this point in time has most of the necessary permits, which will run within 10-15 miles of this proposed plant. The purpose of the pipeline is to bring Canadian crude into the Midwest.
As for rail access, the BNSF has a single track line running past the site down to Sioux City, a distance of perhaps 20 miles. The line is track warrant territory, but was rebuilt a few years ago with CWR. Interchange with the UP or the CN is possible at Sioux City.
gabe wrote: MP173 wrote: Gabe:I will be very surprized to see the old IC line put back in place. I would even buy the tank of gas for us to go take a look at it.BTW, as our legal counsel, what is the situation with abandoned ROW? Who owns it and how does a railroad get it back? Oh, there is talk up here in Northern Indiana...just talk of NS resurrecting the old Kankakee South Bend line from Wheatfield to North Judson, in order to connect with the C&I line which would connect with NS ex NKP line at Thomaston. That would be quite a round about routing, but who knows? The ex Conrail line to Chicago is getting very busy, the NKP line thru Valpo is seeing more and more trains and North Judson and Wheatfield could be filled in fairly inexpensively. Also talk of the ex Conrail line from Schnieder to Danville so NS can run more directly from Elkhart to Decatur.Just talk.edEd,The legal question is too complex for my particular expertise--I specialize in being the hated person who makes people miserable after a controversy has been initiated, not knowing how to circumvent particular problems to avoid a controversy. I know there is a variety of different legal rights associated with such ROWs. Some I am familiar with, most I am not. It would certainly help the railroad if the line were "rail banked," but even then, you are going to have a lot of trouble with lawyers in bringing things back. Of course, eminenet domain still plays a role even if the line is not rail banked. If railroads would be willing to pay the onerous legal fees and expenses, I suppose there would not be much stopping them from building a line right through my living room--my wife would be so mad that I would refuse to move, not out of principle but the desire to be able to watch trains close up from the comfort of my couch. As Michael Sol seems to know a lot more about these particular matters than I, perhaps he would have a wider grasp of the subject.As far as the resurection of part of the ex-IC line, you buy the gas, I will buy the champain.I am with you in saying that it is not going to happen, and the NS statements are "just talk." However, I think you might be surprised should rebuilding become a paradigm. Traffic continues to surge. I think once two or three people start doing, you are going to see a lot of other people doing it. I think there are a lot of forces that might make rebuilding of some lines a distinct possibility.That having been said, I wouldn't be surprised about NS rebuilding the line; I would be shocked, shocked, shocked to see the IC line return.Gabe
I could go on about abandonments at length, but rather than do that, let me suggest that you look at what the STB has to say about it. Look at their website www.stb.dot.gov and go to "Public Information" link at top of page. Follow drop down menu to "Resources" and then "Abandonment" that page has a lot of good links, especially one to a document called "Abandonments and Alternatives to Abandonment" which can be downloaded free and takes you through how the process works and the results. Once a line is abandoned, the property reverts to non-ROW and is governed by state real property laws.
Once abandoned, it is no longer rail right of way.
The exception is if a RR and a government entity decides it shouldn't be abandoned even though the track is gone. And that's all it takes. Then it is still RR ROW, even though bicycles, hikers and dogs are the users. Because a railbanked corridor is not considered abandoned, it can be sold, leased or donated to a trail manager without reverting to adjacent landowners which was a common condition of the original grants made decades and decades ago, whether by deed or easement.
"16USC1247(d) The Secretary of Transportation, the Chairman of the Interstate Commerce Commission, and the Secretary of the Interior, in administering the Railroad Revitalization and Regulatory Reform Act of 1976, shall encourage State and local agencies and private interests to establish appropriate trails using the provisions of such programs. Consistent with the purposes of that Act, and in furtherance of the national policy to preserve established railroad rights-of-way for future reactivation of rail service, to protect rail transportation corridors, and to encourage energy efficient transportation use, in the case of interim use of any established railroad rights-of-way pursuant to donation, transfer, lease, sale, or otherwise in a manner consistent with the National Trails System Act, if such interim use is subject to restoration or reconstruction for railroad purposes, such interim use shall not be treated, for purposes of any law or rule of law, as an abandonment of the use of such rights-of-way for railroad purposes. If a State, political subdivision, or qualified private organization is prepared to assume full responsibility for management of such rights-of-way and for any legal liability arising out of such transfer or use, and for the payment of any and all taxes that may be levied or assessed against such rights-of-way, then the Commission shall impose such terms and conditions as a requirement of any transfer or conveyance for interim use in a manner consistent with this Act, and shall not permit abandonment or discontinuance inconsistent or disruptive of such use."
So far, about 4,500 miles of RR ROW exist in this railbanked condition.
Lots of litigation over this one.
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