vlmuke wrote:Modelcar, I don't mean that people who work in factories are losers, as I have worked in many and there are quite a few smart people working there, but what I was refering to is that the media and society gives youth the perception that working in a factories is only for losers and dicourages young people from getting a job at a factory or a trade, and makes careers like excutives and CEOs glamorous is part of the down fall of US industry as in addition too, many fields have trouble finding workers to replace the aging workforce so they are moving the factories overseas
I saw an interesting documentary not that long ago on the 1920's being a national turning point where there was a very brief moment in our history where we were at a fork in the road...Do we choose to increase productivity or remain statisfied with all the rapid increases in capacity up to that time and lead a more balanced life? Its funny to think in terms of the passage of time, that was not so long ago..This was also a turning point in the concept of advertising where prior to this time, an advertisement for a product consisted of a illustration and a description of the product, and then it metamorphed into the selling of a self image and lifestyle much like it is today....These twin developments led to all sorts of flim flam, which are so deeply rooted in our culture today that I dont think many people can see the forest for the trees. We work 12 hours a day, buy gadgets we try to play with what little spare time we have because we are duped into believing we need them, beyond wanting them. My wife keeps telling me no one has the time to even have any chance to be educated on issues let alone follow the news and when you do, it's some bizarre lifestyle infotainment drek...the bottom line is I think we are at a point where we have sold the farm for a blackberry and the powers that be are more than happy to supply circuses if no bread...I often imagine Thomas Jefferson coming back for a couple of weeks and wonder what he would make of all this economically based social oneupsmanship in a nominal democracy.... One thing I noticed is more about myself than the subject..I appear to have lost interest in contemporary railroading and if I am honest about it..I now find it so uniform and uninteresting I seem to be posting on more indirect than direct railroad topics. So this will probably be my last post although I will comment on others. I done want to become an off topic cafeteria of subjects.
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
....vimuke, no problem...point well taken.
Quentin
ajmiller wrote:A good deal of the plant was gone already. I think the hulks of the blast furnaces will remain though as part of an industry museam. Governor Ed's gambling cronies are setting up shop on that land.
Total growth in U.S. Exports, 2000-2006.
33%.
Growth in total U.S. exports to China:
240%.
Top U.S. exports to China:
1. Computers and electronic products.
2. Transportation equipment.
3. Waste and scrap.
4. Chemicals.
5. Machinery.
....And I wonder how much increase in China's exports to the US in the same time period has been....?
I just heard it last night on CCTV9 China's only English language t.v. station that China became the worlds's largest steel exporter last year.
But all's not wonderful in RED China.There was a big skeem in one of the countries largest steel companies to boost it's stock.They claimed a $30 billion dollar order but it wasn't all so.
The goverment said there will be punishments,and all named are barred from leaving the country.
Ha,even in RED China !
And Safety Valve that's the differance from slave labor and non-slave labor.Were working for ourselves and not the party,and we can get ahead.
Like I've mentioned.I don't know how long the railroads can keep making money off exports ?It's all going to be made from shipping imported goods.But how much longer can that be ?
Collin ,operator of the " Eastern Kentucky & Ohio R.R."
....Seeing, hearing, reading and just being aware of much what is going on out there in our world...it sure looks and sounds like China is and will continue to be our largest economic threat in the foreseeble future.
That is, if we don't first spend ourselves into oblivion trying to "police" the world over and over again.
All of those so-called smart bombs were depleted in the early parts of Desert Storm and the Iraq war. It will take us a few years to replenish our stocks of smart bombs etc. There is really just one facility in the USA currently making bombs and another making missiles etc.
If I wanted economic security, I might just move to that location and learn how to work in a bomb factory.
ndbprr:
I have read your post and evaluated your message and appreciate what you have to say.
One little item: There has been no need for folks to build their homes anywhere near the industrial sites. I had a choice 35 plus years ago to purchase a building spot and did so about 3.5 miles from my employment....No problem at all during all that time.
I will mention of one site I might think of that will be capable either now or soon to produce all the heavy equipment and armaments one might need or want....From China...And even now we seem to be purchasing most of our daily routine materials we use now from China. We certainly have minimal facilities left to do it ourselves. Guess we better stay on the "good" side of them....
My opinion remains as I mentioned....Sorry we've given up much of our manufacturing facilities and China is the "one" we need to keep at least one eye on and perhaps soon, both eyes.
Safety Valve wrote:What will it take to get this Nation back on it's feet?
Yes indeed ,what will it take ? Or how much can we take ?
I've been ,I guess you can say fortunate to live in an area (Tristate area of Ky,Oh,WVa) to experience all types of business,especially industrial.
I've seen what good times and bad does to the economic and mental stress of its community.
I've seen what enviromental impact and the clean up of these indusrties do to a community.
But I also see what pride,diversity and pursurverance does when all these factors take place.
This Tristate area I live in is proud to be part of America and it continues to hold on,or try as they might,to hold on to the remaining industrial jobs.
Alot of places in this country have given up when the industry that they relied on gave up on them and some,not all took on office type work or retail and food service related jobs.But how many of the office type jobs being corporate or call centers have gone overseas ?I have seen that right here were I live .And that was nearly 1000 jobs at two call centers.
If these foreign countries or people want to be American,let them become American by way of citizenship !And keep these jobs here.Kinda wants ya to sing Bruce Springstein's Song "My Hometown " don't it .
This area I live in still has a few steel mills: A blast furnace and rolling mill (AK Steel of Ashland,Ky),an electric mimi mill (Ky Electric Steel) at Coalton,Ky,a mini mill in Huntington,WVa (Steel of WVa).
There's two coke oven plants:AK Coke in Ashland,Ky,and Sunoco Coke of Haverhill,Ohio.
All but one plant,Steel of WVa have direct rail service.And Steel of WVa unloads steel bars off railcars at NS's Kenova,WVa yard onto truck for delivery.
Ironton,Ohio which lies across the Ohio River from AK's Ashland plant used to have several small stell and iron works,hence the name Ironton.Ironton was the site of Ohio's first railroad and the " I " in DT&I r.r. .
The passing of Bethlehem Steel as covered in the San Diego area. What is interesting in this article is the brief mention that one of the artifacts being saved is "the last section of armor plate manufactured in the U.S.." I had no idea this was made exclusively overseas, which is a somewhat disturbing situation. Also noteworthy is the mention of a diesel to be preserved. Is this an in-plant switcher?
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/business/20070426-1140-bethlehemsteeldemolition.html
mackb4 wrote: When all the steel plants are gone,and we have to buy steel from China,Russia,and.....oh wait we already are.Maybe that's what the problem is ?
The US made millions and had tons of jobs by selling to other countries. US Steel, Bethlehem, etc didn't make their money simply selling to American buyers. Perhaps then, there were Europeans just like yourself complaining that buying american was the problem. It's false. the problem is our companies, for many reasons, have been unable to compete in the marketplace. that is what the problem is.
mackb4 wrote: If this all takes place and we have to build more bombs to wage war,then who will supply our steel if all of our former enemies are making it now ?You betcha,a war lost without shooting a single bullet because we have no bullet to shoot !
quite frankly, it's really frustrating that so many people on here lament our ability to wage war. the fact that we've been obsessed with war since WWII (we've more or less been in a state of permanent war since then) that has helped kill our industry by bloating our government. our paychecks are used to build wealth destroying bombs, planes, boats, etc. what if instead of spending our money on war, we lower corporate taxes. or we allowed railroads to float bonds tax free (if you'll remember, the railroads heyday they paid no taxes on the capital they raised...do federal highways pay property tax? tax on bonds to build them?).
mackb4 wrote: It's a shame to think or at least are brainwashed into thinking we don't need all this "dirty industry".Service type jobs *only* won't support an economy.
mackb4 wrote: When all the Federal judges keep the mines from mining,what coal drags are you gonna be watching.Those on video or on your model layout.
...There's so many sides to this discussion I guess I won't even try to go farther. There is one thing in my mind I believe though....If we don't have jobs in this country that create value...make things....we're not adding to the wealth of our country. Can't survive on a service economy.....By that I mean exchanging the money back and forth and not adding any value to it....Enhancing our country's income.
About the only cure for us the way we're going now is lower our standard of living....Is that what we helped many 3rd world countries for, to modernize and adapt to the ability to manufacture goods....To do our manufacturing so we can live on a lower quality scale...
All this is mind bogging.
And this at the same time we're still spending ourselves into oblivion trying to re arrange the world....I guess that's what it is....Not to mention our young American lives along with it.....
We've started this with Bethlehem Steel and it's demise but let's mention RR's too....Of course they don't get to serve all that industry as was once done. Perhaps they made up for it {and then some}, by all the container traffic across the country now hauling the Chinese inports.
Modelcar wrote: ...There's so many sides to this discussion I guess I won't even try to go farther. There is one thing in my mind I believe though....If we don't have jobs in this country that create value...make things....we're not adding to the wealth of our country. Can't survive on a service economy.....By that I mean exchanging the money back and forth and not adding any value to it....Enhancing our country's income.About the only cure for us the way we're going now is lower our standard of living....Is that what we helped many 3rd world countries for, to modernize and adapt to the ability to manufacture goods....To do our manufacturing so we can live on a lower quality scale...All this is mind bogging.And this at the same time we're still spending ourselves into oblivion trying to re arrange the world....I guess that's what it is....Not to mention our young American lives along with it.....We've started this with Bethlehem Steel and it's demise but let's mention RR's too....Of course they don't get to serve all that industry as was once done. Perhaps they made up for it {and then some}, by all the container traffic across the country now hauling the Chinese inports.
Someone once commented that the only constant in life is change, so I suppose we cannot preserve the familiar in amber. I think that having lived through the age of heavy industry, to the appearance of the phrase "rust belt" coined some decades ago, to the age of internet, and it's associated bubble burst, and now unprecendented growth of the service industry...and how rapidly all this has transpired, it's as if the process of acceleration in technology has left the human factor in the dust. If someone told me decades ago that many career changes would one day be the norm in a working life, I would seriously question that projection. I read an interesting article not that long ago that commented on the development of society as being akin to that of a child. First our bodies were placed into action with work based on physical activity and now that phase is ending and the mind is now being put to the test. With all the wild and crazy things happening in the world now, if this were a test, I would be lucky to pull off a "D" I began with physical work then moved to management, and now I am looking at the potential of becoming an internet News Editor...for another organization...when I look back at the railroads I grew up with and the railroads as they are constituted now, by basis of comparison, certainly their realm of influence in our society has drastically shrunk, if not their profit margins. When I think of all the variety I enjoyed as a railfan some decades ago compared to now, my enthusiasm has waned in direct proportion to the uniformity in equipment, operations etc. I have changed in my relationship with railroads as a railfan as these changes unfolded..whether they are good or bad, is something for others to pronounce but again, I think change is inevitable..its how we deal with it that matters. My grandmother lived to be nearly one hundred years old. I had the experience of watching the first walk on the moon beside her. She turned to me and said, "When I was a child on my uncle's farm, we all had horses and buggies, then cars then telephones and now this..it all is pretty amazing to me..." She viewed change as a positive fact of life, maybe that's why she managed to live so long.
Wally, we have to agree with Grandma....change is coming and we have a choice to endorce it or whatever.....
I suppose my biggest concern is how people {the masses}, will be earning a living going forward in our country. I realize we're in a several decades of what I believe is transition time....How long it takes, who knows. Perhaps it's ongoing. But right now, I am somewhat concerned to what the changes are presenting to us....{as a nation}, and what the outcome changes us to.
I'm probably in your age bracket and perhaps we've both seen roughly similar changes as we have moved along the path. I hope something is out there {for our country}, to keep it up there as a force in this world but a force of....strength.....and God loving....and of course one of success.
....Not enough of anything. Big problem for us, now and in the future.
We could discuss for years to come where the upwards spiral began and who started it all and we will never come to an agreement on these matters. We can argue that people who started companies did so to make money which is true but could not achieve their goals without the American workers. Well the workers of course want a living wage plus the benefits they feel most essential to their famlies which is totally understandable. But where did the spiral begin. Did owners raise their prices to make more money or did workers demand higher wages and benefits which eventually resulted in the price increases. I can not say where. I am only 70 so it started before I came along. And whenever any employee received any kind of a raise, everyone who depended on these people raised their prices accordingly so in essense it was an upwards spiral to where neither side really got ahead. As third world education and technology improved then the owners realized that their companies here were never going to get any better because of the tit for tat arrangements and moved their facilities off shore to take advantage of the cheap labor. Now the game is that the companies are blaming their workers for them having to move and the workers blaming the companies for moving. Same old tit for tat. The older I get the more I begin to realize that its all about one world economy and at present we are on the downside because in this environment, the economy will eventually find its level much like water does. For years we had enjoyed being the top of the pack and have more in one room of our homes than most people in other countrys have in their entire house. Same goes for wages. But as the economy works to bring up the standards of these fledgling countrys, ours will decline until the norm is achieved and believe me, we still have a long way to fall. I am originally from the Western Pennsylvania area close to Youngstown, OH so I well know the sight of red skies, smelly smoke, mill trains and all the hustle bustle that went along with it. None of that is there now except for a mere shadow of what once was the fledgling Sharonsteel now run simply as a cold roll mill using imported steel. Sad Sad Sad. But examine the why it happened and what is yet to happen. Its going to get worse before it gets better. Our government is not on Wall Street. It is still in Washington. Wall Street is what is keeping this country afloat. When is the last time anyone in Washington produced a product or put money into our economy. NEVER. Yet they have managed to take much from us and keep asking for more even though our sources of good income disappear. Don't blame Wall Street. They are enterprising people there out to make a paycheck just like we do and they will continue to do it the best way they know how. You would do the same. Unfortunately this mindset has moved into Washington and politicians look more for ways to enrich their own lives and to hell with the people that are paying the way. I sound radical? I think not. I would fight to save my country in a minute as I have proven on three previous occasions. But I do that based on the principles for which this country stands, not the trends of today to ruin what our forefathers began. Thanks for reading and Goodbye Bethlehem.
Dano
.....Yes, sadly....most assessments of above I agree with as what's happening. And as I too mention in above post, lower standards of living for us is on the way. {Unless something I don't see now changes it}. Not a comfortable thought to look quite a ways down the path and try to estimate just what might be left for us....{Actually, for our children and grandchildren}.
I agree with most of what has been said. However, companies moving overseas or to Mexico is mostly for pure greed. A perfect example was the Cranston Mill in Hendersonville, NC. They shut down several years ago and moved the operation to Mexico saying that they were losing money. Company officials said they lost 5 million dollars in the last year of operation and that is why they were moving the plant. In reality they made 2 million dollars that year. They had PROJECTED that they would make 7 million, but only made 2, so they claimed they lost 5 million dollars. Total BS.
I can't add much to that; I pretty much agree.
What I don't understand is that managment and labor are still shooting each other in the foot, even after seeing how it has made things worse for everyone. The airlines are going through that now.
The other point I haven't seen here yet is that our dollars that we pay for imports must come back to the U.S. If we don't produce anything that the owners of those dollars want, they simply buy up our properties and businesses. That is what we are selling to them.
As long as we are going back to WWII, it was we, the good ol' U.S.A., who rebuilt Japan and Germany after the war with all new stuff. Did anyone rebuild our own steel mills?
One more. The decline of American steel has been going on for 40 years, and no one, I repeat, no one, has lifted a finger to slow it down. Labor, management, government, voters, have all just let it happen. Is that what the free market really is, a license to drive off a cliff? One fiscal quarter at a time?
Personally, I go out of my way to buy American whenever I can. If I can't, I'm willing to buy the Chinese, Mexican, Brazilian, Japanese, Korean, Italian, etc., product. Example - Band Aid brand adhesive bandages now come from Brazil. I buy Nexcare, made in the U.S.A. Sure, they cost a bit more, but the way I see it, there's a piece of some American's job on the other end of that chain.
....Very well said. When one see's all of our comments in print...it starts to look a bit alarming. Well to get it out in the open for discussion.
Jock Ellis Cumming, GA US of A Georgia Association of Railroad Passengers
My opinion is that floating currencies merely introduce another set of profit-takers and speculators in the money changing business. When someone makes a killing in currency speculation, that's your money and my money that they are taking. I think the Chinese have this one correct.
We don't need a variable exchange rate between a New York dollar and a Florida dollar, even though they have widely different values in terms of what you can buy.
Pretty soon the Chinese computer technicians and electronics assemblers, etc., will want a house, a car, a color TV, education for their children, clean water, clean air, police and fire protection, and all the other things we have. That will drive their prices up.
kevikens wrote:Long ago I realized that the US was buying its manufactured goods from abroad but whenever I saw those grain shipments going by rail to ports and loaded onto ships bouind for the rest of the world I took comfort in the thought that we still were the big exporter of grains. You can imagine the surprise when I read that the poison in the pet food come from grain IMPORTED from China. Have we come to the point that we are now buying grains from other countries ? If there was one field that I thought we still dominated it was grain exports. Maybe not. Just what are we exporting to pay the trade deficit these days ?
Makes you wonder if this isn't terrorism at a small level ?
I better check my Siamese cat's papers.He's been looking at me funny lately .
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