Why did UP choose the 70 macs

[Anonymous]

I thought they would opt for more 90 macs instead 0f 1000 70's. The whole idea behind the 90 macs was 2 for replacement of the older sd40/40-2's. Were the 90macs to troublesome, and the 70's were more reliable.

[Anonymous]

The 70s don't have all the computer stuff like the 90s. That is what UP wanted. I think more 90 would be better than any GEs for coal service.I also think a EMD sales person was realy good when they talked to to UP. Maybe EMD can build them faster too.

[Anonymous]

Actually they are not SD70MAC's. They are SD70M's which is almost totally different. The 70M's are DC transmission where as the 70MAC's are AC. BIG difference. As I understand, UP wanted a value leader and EMD had it, the SD70M.

[favuprailroadfan]

Eric,

The 90's proved to have a little bit of trouble when they started putting in the new 6000hp power plants, so UP sent them back to EMD, and now EMD has built a smaller, yet similar version of the 90. Its simply called the SD89MAC. It does not have the 6000HP H engine like the 90 but a 4500HP version of the H. It basically a overgrown SD75, but it is AC. No EMD does not build them faster. GE can build a locomotive in 26 days, while EMD is around 90 days, this may have changed since I heard last. Yes the GE's are good for coal service, they pull alot better than the EMD's, but the EMD's are more comfortable, and load faster than the GE's. I am not a big fan of the GE's, but those big GE's come by in full throttle with their AC motors singing, holy cow, I love em. But I am a EMD fan, always have been always will be. So I hope this info helps you out a little bit.

Dru

[Anonymous]

the actual problems they initially had with the 90's wasn't with the H engine, rather they had some software bugs that kept them out of service for a bit. they are now assigned primarily to manifest service at 60mph or less, due to some ride quality issues, (i guess bouncing side to side at 70mph on a junk GE is o.k. though). to my knowledge none of the SD9043-MACS have been repowered with anything, although they were designed to be upgraded to the H engine and 6000 horses, i don't think the UP is going to do this anytime soon. currently emd is really cranking out those 70M's, both from mexico, and canada. i believe we are already in the 600's as far as delivery so they are really spitting them out. as for GE's on coal trains, give me 2-3 of those SD9043-MAC's any day! and on stacks, I'd rather have old 40's than new GE's.

[Anonymous]

Amen to that!!!!!!!!!!!

[favuprailroadfan]

Eric, I did some checking up on the SD90 situation. I found a mistake that I had made in my reply. The new version of the 90 is not the 16 cylinder but a 12 cylinder version of the H. And it does put out 4500hp. And the model is called a SD92MAC. It has the same apperance as the original 90's, but it just has the differant engine. It was numbered simply GM-92. That is the last thing that I know of this.

If you hear differant, tell me.
Dru

[Anonymous]

Dave
Why did UP purchase 1000 SD70M's? Many reasons I can give you. The UP had a good case to look at before purchase. The 25 70M's they picked up form SP and the EMD lease fleet of 70M's out of Roseville. The performance of the units was unbelievable. That was a big selling point. Another reason is cost. SD70MAC's and SD90MAC's run over 2 mil apiece. 70M's run under 2 mil apiece. The 1000 unit order is a plane Jane DC locomotive compared to its AC cousin. Also, the SD70M is a MUI engine (Mechanical Fuel Injection) vs SD70MAC & SD90MAC EUI engine (Electronic Fuel Injection). Big difference. The 70M has the tried and true woodward gov. on it. The air brakes are standard, not electronic. Cab has all analog controls on it, vs computer screen displays. With the SD70M running at 96% availability, it is the hottest locomotive in North America right now! Go to EMD's web site to get more info about SD90MAC, SD70MAC, and "Mr. Performer", SD70M. It may help a little. www.gmemd.com Hope this helps. Let me know.........

[SSW9389]

Two other reasons that UP selected the SD70Ms were the need to keep a second locomotive builder in business and the unit reduction, Before UP's 1,000 unit SD70M order GM did not have any significant orders on the books. This move by UP keeps GM operating through 2002. There are on other large orders for GMs at this time.

When the 1,000 unit order was announced, UP also stated that approximately 1,500 older units would be retired. This is a 2 for 3 replacement ratio. Many older units will be scrapped and others will be sold to locomotive leasing companies or rebuilders.

[Anonymous]

It's my understanding that in addition to Ed's comments about spreading the orders over two company's, UP has protected itself by only taking 1/3 of the order if the units are not up to snuff. There has been a great deal of disappointment with the 6000hp units and I think UP wanted a way out if the product wasn't as promised.

The SD90's though are a unit without a cause. Too speciallized for their own good. Brute strength is great, but so is fast, reliable and proven locomotive service. While there really aren't that many SD70M's on the market, the technology is basically the same as the SD40 family so everybody can deal with them easily.

My question to the group here would be not why the SD90 was not picked, but why the GE Dash-9 wasn't. There are certainly far more of these units on railroads today and they are equal to the SD70M is most aspects. Other than spreading out orders between GM and GE I can't think of any other good reason.

[Anonymous]

Mark,
Good question indeed. I have wondered about that myself. UP really wasn't a big fan of the DASH 9 but the CNW and SP were. Do you think that had something to do with it? I would have to say that EMD and UP struck up a sweetheart deal to keep EMD alive. One thing about the SD70M, I would love to have the contract to supply shock absorbers for the beast. What, 8 per unit I think? No wonder they ride nice. I guess if you want adheasion you get a rough ride.

[Anonymous]

I BELIEVE THAT UNION PACIFIC WENT WITH THE 70 MACS BECAUSE THE 90 MACS WERE BOUGHT FOR THE COAL TRAIN USE. UP TRIED THE 90 MACS ON INTERMODEL TRAINS BUT DIDN'T LIKE THEM AS MUCH AS THEY LIKED THEM ON COAL TRAINS. SO THEREFORE THEY WENT TO GM AND BOUGHT 1000 70 MACS SO NOW THEY HAVE A GOOD HIGH HORSEPOWER LOCOMOTIVE FOR THEIR INTERMODEL TRAINS.

[Anonymous]

Around here, CN's number series 5600-5799 are all SD75 (except for the first 25 or so which are 70's). While they like the units, the SD75's all had their H.P. downrated to below the 70's due to problems and certainly don't think there is any plans to get more of the 70/75 family. The Dash-9 though is a different story. The Dash-9 is closing in on the same number as the 70/75 family. I think the last order is finished but more maybe on the way. I've never heard a complaint about these units. The fact that SP and CNW (probably the best paint scheme I've seen the GE's in by the way) had them should mean they've had a chance to feel them out by now. Personally I'd have purchased the GE's knowing their proven track record and the fact that they can produce them faster.

[Anonymous]

True, so true. It appears that the GE is the work horse of choice for unit trains where their super adheasion counts the most and the EMD is the choice for being a true road SWITCHER. Sounds like a balanced fleet is the way to go.

[Anonymous]

perhaps it's the track record of SP's 25 SD70M's that they got before they ordered the Dash-9's that convinced UP to go with EMD's. When SP got them they put them on the I-5 corridor, wich is certainly a test of any engine. I believe UP got the better deal with EMD, and they seem to have found a way to produce 'em like crazy when they really had to. Also the family has a proven record with BNSF in their 70MAC's. It seems to me the last 2 huge orders have been for EMD's, that should tell everyone something, that for large scale fleet replacement, EMD is still the way to go. Also, UP's intended use for the 70's is in intermodal and manifest service where their better response time, smoother ride, and ability to run over 50mph without having problems with the wheelslip control system are definately an advantage for getting trains over the road. While it is true a GE will get down and lug at lower speeds probably a little better than EMD, that is not necessarily a good thing with a stack train, you want race horses not clysdales! Also a little side note about SP's order for the Dash 9's as well as the AC4400's, the only reason they went with GE was financing, they wanted more EMD's but with the financial shape they were in GE made them a better financing package deal than EMD did. In fact the AC4400's were, in the begining, a nightmare for SP because they had all sorts of maintainance problems sometimes falling below 80% availability, until finally getting things somewhat resolved. me personally, I'd take EMD's anytime over a GE (sorry GE fans).

[Anonymous]

Derek,
As usual, you have good information. I'm glad you respond to educate us and to share your opinion.

[EvanWerkema]

Don't confuse the genuine 6000 hp SD90MAC's
(UP 8500-8561) with the 4300 hp SD9043MAC's
(UP 8000-8308). The SD9043's are the so-called
"convertables" - they have the SD90MAC body
but a 710-engine inside just like the SD75M.
The idea when they were built was that they could
be upgraded with 6000 hp H engines once that
engine was in full production. However, the
H engine has yet to prove itself so far as UP is
concerned, and the cost of the changeout would
be too expensive, so the SD9043MAC's will likely
remain 4300 hp locomotives.

At the present time, most of the SD9043MAC's
are in coal service. The 6000 hp SD90MAC's
are in manifest service. The units from the
first order (up to 8521) are mostly based out of
Roseville, CA for use on manifests with
distributed power running over Tehachapi and
Donner Passes, and the units from the second
order are mostly in Texas on chemical trains.
The 90MAC's were originally purchased for high
speed intermodal service (high horsepower is for
speed, not lugging ability), but they proved too
unreliable in that service, not to mention the
ride quality issues at high speeds. Contrary to
an earlier post, there were problems with the H
engine itself. The entire second order sat
engineless at the VMV shop in Paducah, KY for
several months as EMD tried to work out the
problems with the prime mover.

The reason UP is buying SD70M's instead of
Dash 9's is because UP had EMD over a barrel
due to the problems with the 90MAC's, and to a
lesser extent the 9043MACs. UP got a very good
deal out of EMD on the SD70M's. See recent
back issues of Extra 2200 South for an analysis
of the UP order.

Regarding recent large orders, consider that
while BNSF didn't order them all in one gulp,
the railroad has nevertheless taken delivery of
over 1000 Dash 9-44CW's in just the last four
years. The BNSF total for this model is pushing
1300 units, and more are on the way. Norfolk
Southern and CSX have also sent the lion's share
of their orders to GE in recent years with only a
few bones thrown in the direction of EMD. NS's
roster of "catfish" (widenose Dash 9's) is
around 800, all within the last 5 or 6 years.

One other note: in order to comply with the EPA
Tier 1 emission standards, the EMD will soon
have to start building UP's SD70M's with
electronic fuel injection rather than mechanical
injection. They may already be building them
that way.

[Anonymous]

The units designed for better emissions standards have already begun to appear at the EMD shop in London Ont. They've got quite the retro look with flared sides like the SD45's. I guess everything does come back again.

On another note, CSX purchased a small quantity of SD70's which they took delivery on earlier this year. Any word on their progress? With CSX moving away from GM in recent times this could be the first step in recovering much of the eastern U.S. market which they've lost to GE.

[Anonymous]

Funny thing Evan, an EMD rep. disputes every thing you wrote but I do believe that there is some truth to it.

[EvanWerkema]

Would he/she be willing to let you post his/her
take on the subject? I'm sure we'd all be
interested to hear what EMD has to say.

[SSW9389]

UP is to be the prime mover for GM auto and truck deliveries in the West. It is speculation, but the large order for SD70Ms definitely helped UP gain this business from BNSF.

[Anonymous]

yes, they just announced this a few days ago, although they were already hauling the lion's share of GM business before. But, that order for the 70's certainly couldn't have hurt their standing with GM's higher ups.

[Anonymous]

Evan, just a note about the EPA emissions, there are currently a number of 70M's running around (i don't know where in the # sequence they start) that are already tier 1 certified. while they do have a special govenor, it is still a mechanical/hydralic govenor, and all they have is different, but not electronic, fuel injectors. in the computer at work, any of these that are tier 1 approved have a list of about 4-5 things that have been changed and if replaced, must be replaced with like parts. I have seen some of the lower #'d 70's with the same listing, so they must be retrofitting the older ones as they come in for shopping. Also, I've noticed the true 90's are creeping back into intermodal service, albeit not as leaders, but as the middle unit of a three unit "power set", typically with a 70 on each end. Also the GE 7500's are back in intermodal service, as they too, had many teething problems out of the gate, so perhaps it's just a matter of time before they both get back to their intended service, (although hopefully with enough extra power if you loose one you don't "lay down").

[Anonymous]

Fellow Members

No one has brought up anything about AC4400 and Dash 9's meeting tier 1 and beyond. I hear emissions for GE is going to be a definite thorn in the side. Also, about SD70M order to CSX. CSX did order SD70MAC's years ago. The AC cousin to the 70M. CSX did pick up the old EMD lease fleet of SD70M's that were typically out in California. It was not a new order though. EMD swapped CSX for a boatload of GP38'S for SD70M's and GP60's. It was a deal with LLPX. Joint venture between EMD and GATX. Don't know the road numbers of the SD70M's though. NS bought 10 SD70M's along with the 1000 UP SD70M's order. Better price tacking it onto the 1000 unit order. Who is the so called EMD REP?????

[Anonymous]

interesting point about the GE's, on the UP there are a bunch of these GE's that are flagged in the computer to keep 'em out of California due to emission problems, although they still run 'em into Cal. Also, there are several, I guess test bed, GE's running around with test equipment trying to get them up to tier 1. be interesting to see how they solve their emission problems, might have to do something like EMD and have an engine driven turbo with an over-running clutch to keep the turbo from lagging. Didn't know about the NS order. anybody heard any bad things about the SD80MAC's that CSX,NS inherited from Conrail? just curious about that 20cyl. 710 engine and whether they are good units or not.

[JonathanS]

But Union Pacific has not bought 1000 SD70s. They have merely leased them. Up until now UP always buys any locomotive that they have an intention of keeping. Why lease these? The lease has an option to purchase at the end of the term. But the purchase price is about 90% of the cost of a new locomotive, so it seems likely that these SD70s will not be on the UP long term.

[SSW9389]

CTC Board magazine is reporting that UP is negotiating with EMD for another 700 SD70Ms. The units are to be delivered over a seven year period, between 2002 and 2008. The units will be delivered at the rate of 100 per year.

[Anonymous]

I also see on trainorders.com that UP may drop the wings (GOD I HOPE NOT).

[Anonymous]

man I sure hope so, I work for 'em, but haven't seen anything about another order yet. These are excellent engines, and so far, other than some minor problems (fridge circuit breaker is a problem on about half of 'em so far), they are definately good units, and on stacks and 'racks they ride so much better than GE widebodies. Also the seats are very comfortable, hope this is the new standard seat for UP.

[Anonymous]

I went and looked at this site, just a couple of questions, do you have to pay to join,(it looks like $7.00 is that correct), and also where did you find that about the wings? I couldn't find anything about the wings, and the company hasn't said anything to us (employees) about discontinuing the wings. If they do stop w/the wings I would assume it is a cost saving measure, as they are starting to tighten their belt in other ways also (consolidating trains, cutting switch engines/dodgers back, reducing extra boards (in some cases to the extreme), etc,etc)