Empire Builder moved to a more southerly route?

[Anonymous]

AAAhhhhhhhhhhh...........I can see it now, Murphsiding will come back with his juvenile comments on my statement! 

  Actually, I'm going to turn over a new leaf, and try being nice to you.  I hope you can do the same.  Fair enough?

I'll be nice until you decide to attack, in fact i've always tried to be nice, but as soon as I type into something people [you Know who You ARE!] decide I'm part of the maurading horde and attempt to intimidate me. Insult me, kick me out of town, etc. Like I've stated to the may Railroaders I've known that don't feel the need to type into this board..........."the Railroad Police that threatened me in years past are all retired, and I'm still here, that aint gonna' change!" 

As far as you, or anyone being nice to me...............that reamins to be seen, but if you aint gonna' be nice it's no skin off my nose!

[Murphy Siding]

AAAhhhhhhhhhhh...........I can see it now, Murphsiding will come back with his juvenile comments on my statement! 

  Actually, I'm going to turn over a new leaf, and try being nice to you.  I hope you can do the same.  Fair enough?

[Anonymous]

oooooooooooooooooooooo................how scary!

[Anonymous]

Did they chage the name of this one, on the schedule in Cleveland Amtrak station this listing is still under both the Capitol Limited and The Pennsylvanian [2 seperate trains] thru to Pittsburg at least, and the North Shore into buffalo Albany, Boston!

[nanaimo73]

 Name change cleared up, be-that-as-it-may, I still feel that ridership wouldn't suffer that much if MRL hosted Amtrak instead of BNSF, but Amtrak has had its' share of problems in keeping its' host railroad to maintaining the Trackage, and clearance rights. a.k.a. - The Pennsylvanian from Cleveland suffers from NS having schedules that seem to supercede its' trackage, and clearance agreements with Amtrak [just 1 example] that has made the Pennsylavnian constantly late to Pittsburg and further east!

Does the Pennsylvanian reach Cleveland ? I thought only the Capitol Limited ran between Cleveland and Pittsburgh.

[Bergie]

Relax, Tex. It's comments like "You couldn't even comprehend my logic" that have caused out long-time members to turn against you.

 

[Anonymous]

Montana Rail Link runs between Jones Jct, MT east of Billings, westward to Sandpoint, Jct, ID.  The area you describe with erratic operations is hundreds of miles east of where MRL responsibilities for BNSF trans end.  MRL is not without it's share of congestion problems but they still can run a train between Sandpoint and Jones Jct with a better on time performance than what BNSF is doing between say Pasco, WA and Spokane, WA.

I will have to say BNSF does a commendable job of keeping the Empire Builder on schedule.

Note to the rest, RE: train naming.

The former train on the NP lines was called the North Coast Hiawatha under AMTK service.  Not that has anything to do with any future nomenclature.  Remember, we are not talking about moving the Empire Builder off the former GN lines at all.  What is being requested is an additional train on a route serving populous  portion of MT.  I doubt AMTK will have much to say about it for now since the state legislature has not voted to appropriate the funds for a study of the new train.  The legislature has not adjourned yet, though, and some really crazy things happen when the legislatures try to close up business to beat feet towards home.  

Name change cleared up, be-that-as-it-may, I still feel that ridership wouldn't suffer that much if MRL hosted Amtrak instead of BNSF, but Amtrak has had its' share of problems in keeping its' host railroad to maintaining the Trackage, and clearance rights. a.k.a. - The Pennsylvanian from Cleveland suffers from NS having schedules that seem to supercede its' trackage, and clearance agreements with Amtrak [just 1 example] that has made the Pennsylavnian constantly late to Pittsburg and further east!

And dealing with Washington Rail Group [Dennis Washington] where the Railroad leases the line from another Railroad Amtrak would be dealing with 2 Railroads instead of one in the main area where they would need to be on time. With MRL shcedules, and BNSF Cola trains, and BNSF by-pass x-tras the route thru Fargo, Dickinson, Billings, Helena, Missoula would be more late than on-time. True the end-of-run at [say] Tacoma, or Seattle would be on schedule because from Missoula to Spookaloo there really isn't much reason to stop, and is much faster than the same area on the "High Line" seeing it mostly by-passes the major section of the Bitteroots. 

Still the final operation loosk to be more complex than Amtrak can seem to hanlde, what makes me wonder is that Morrison Knudsen offered to Build Amtrak a Monorail System 22 years ago for passenger service between Salt Lake City and Cheyenne Wyoming. This would be totally independent from organizing with a host railroad for scheduling, and the Monorail would have had a high speed [145 mph] ability. Amtrak passed this up which looks foolish.

AAAhhhhhhhhhhh...........I can see it now, Murphsiding will come back with his juvenile comments on my statement! 

[MichaelSol]

I will have to say BNSF does a commendable job of keeping the Empire Builder on schedule.

I agree. They keep it rolling.

[arbfbe]

Oh please, "erratic operation" on the MRL?  Where does this come from?

 Well let's see...........................How-a-bout 3 months ago when I was out in Dickinson SD following an EBD Intermodal to Dilworth MN, just for the Photo's. Left Dickinson at 6:30 pm went 31 miles, stopped on the main for 4 hours, at the end of 4 hours a new crew was delivered. Train pulled out, and ran at 40 mph, for 3 hours, slowed down to 25 mph for 3 hours, picked back up to 45 mph until Mandan. Encountered no maintenence of way, or opposing trains into Mandan, the train sat in Mandan yard for 1+1/2 hours before pulling out, blew thru Bismark at 40 mph, but slowed down to 25 mph 17 miles east of Bismark. Rolled like this for 4 hours, picked up to 45 mph until Fargo where it stopped outside of town about 7-7+1/2 miles westfor 2 hours, then pulled out and rolled 30 mph into Dilworth.

For an intermodal that's awful erratic! 

  MRL's on time performance makes the BNSF look like a bunch of beginners.  Should there be an AMTK train running you can count on it being on time for an amazing percentage of the time. 

TX Madman,

Montana Rail Link runs between Jones Jct, MT east of Billings, westward to Sandpoint, Jct, ID.  The area you describe with erratic operations is hundreds of miles east of where MRL responsibilities for BNSF trans end.  MRL is not without it's share of congestion problems but they still can run a train between Sandpoint and Jones Jct with a better on time performance than what BNSF is doing between say Pasco, WA and Spokane, WA.

I will have to say BNSF does a commendable job of keeping the Empire Builder on schedule.

Note to the rest, RE: train naming.

The former train on the NP lines was called the North Coast Hiawatha under AMTK service.  Not that has anything to do with any future nomenclature.  Remember, we are not talking about moving the Empire Builder off the former GN lines at all.  What is being requested is an additional train on a route serving populous  portion of MT.  I doubt AMTK will have much to say about it for now since the state legislature has not voted to appropriate the funds for a study of the new train.  The legislature has not adjourned yet, though, and some really crazy things happen when the legislatures try to close up business to beat feet towards home.  

[Murphy Siding]

Altered by request.

[n012944]

 Does it really matter if a rerouted EB takes another 12 hours?  Since when is speed an issue for EB travelers?

If it requires another trainset, it makes quite a difference.

Why would it require another trainset?

Right now the trainset is turned in Seattle in a little over six hours.  To maintain an afternoon depature on both ends with an additional 12 hour transit time, you would need another trainset in the rotation.

 

Bert

[Anonymous]

Oh please, "erratic operation" on the MRL?  Where does this come from?

 Well let's see...........................How-a-bout 3 months ago when I was out in Dickinson SD following an EBD Intermodal to Dilworth MN, just for the Photo's. Left Dickinson at 6:30 pm went 31 miles, stopped on the main for 4 hours, at the end of 4 hours a new crew was delivered. Train pulled out, and ran at 40 mph, for 3 hours, slowed down to 25 mph for 3 hours, picked back up to 45 mph until Mandan. Encountered no maintenence of way, or opposing trains into Mandan, the train sat in Mandan yard for 1+1/2 hours before pulling out, blew thru Bismark at 40 mph, but slowed down to 25 mph 17 miles east of Bismark. Rolled like this for 4 hours, picked up to 45 mph until Fargo where it stopped outside of town about 7-7+1/2 miles westfor 2 hours, then pulled out and rolled 30 mph into Dilworth.

For an intermodal that's awful erratic! 

  MRL's on time performance makes the BNSF look like a bunch of beginners.  Should there be an AMTK train running you can count on it being on time for an amazing percentage of the time. 

  When did MRL move to North Dakota?

Sure, Murphy, you remember!  It was right after South Dakota invaded western North Dakota and took over Dickinson!

[Anonymous]

As for the train having "two engines across the northern tier", this is incorrect.  The train has only one engine consisting of two locomotives.

Mark, it's been years since the EB was pulled by F7's. 

FY 2006 Loss per Seat-mile (cents)

5.5 Empire Builder

Thank you for acknowledging that the EB is a money loser, probably due to the fact that it travel's through sparsely populated territory.  Who knows, if the EB actually passed through Montana's more populous cities, it might come close to breaking even!

So, those who flippantly suggest that the Empire Builder should be rerouted based on population statistics that are unsupported by actual ridership figures really just don't "Get it."

You are suggesting ridership would go down if EB was routed through more populous territory.  I am suggesting EB ridership would increase if rerouted through more populous territory.  Logic backs my ascertion, emotion backs yours.

Those patronizing the Empire Builder in Shelby and Havre are not from Butte and Bozeman, but rather from Great Falls, Lethbridge, and throughout the Golden Triangle. 

Last time I looked, Great Falls is closer to Helena than to Shelby or Havre.  Rerouting via MRL would make it more convient for GF folks as well as those from Butte, Bozeman, Helena, et al.  As for Lethbridgians, hey it's bad enough we subsidize Americans using Amtrak, we don't need to subsidize Canadians as well.

....case in point: Whitefish vs. Flagstaff.

You're saying Amtrak ridership at Flagstaff should be higher than that at Whitefish due to the higher population base, but it's not which *proves* something.  Yet you acknowledge that Arizona has better flight connections than Montana cities, so doesn't that explain Amtrak's relatively low ridership numbers in Flagstaff?

Dave/Futuremodal started the thread and has said on numerous occasions that he sees no value in Amtrak, so why does he care?  Probably because the Empire Builder is well-patronized and that people along the route do see great value in the service, so therein is some kind of threat. 

What would that alleged "threat" be?  Please explain yourself when you make such nonsensical statements.

The reason I care about rerouting the EB to more populous areas is simply a desire to see my tax dollars derive better value, or in this case less of a negative value.  On a larger scale, I believe it is impossible to judge the value of passenger rail travel in the US as it relates to today's transportation scene if said passenger rail is an uninspired federally run entity stuck using 1930's logistics.  My objection to Amtrak isn't that the feds are enforcing a niche example of open access (whether you acknowledge it or not), it's that they are running it instead of supporting private enterprise running it.  The tax dollars spent for Amtrak would be better served if the money was used to support private passenger rail ventures getting established, and then see if it is possible for such enterprises to achieve self sustainment.

And if a private firm was charged with running a Northern Tier passenger train service, you can bet your subsidized bottom dollar they'd route it through the most populous/least travel competitive client base.

[Murphy Siding]

Altered by request.

[Anonymous]

Why would they have to rename it? The EB ran over CB&Q via Savanna, IL. from Twin Cities to Chicago, not MLWK via Milwaukee, Wi. If anything, it should already be called The Hiawatha Builder! Following your line of logic, that is.

You couldn't even comprehend my logic, but getting back to your reply, it Wouldn't be called the Hiwatha Builder because the Hiwatha ran the Milwaukee Road, The Empire Builder ran the Great Northern, but having Amtrak shif it's train from the "High Line" to the "Low Line" NP ran The North Coast Limited and Amtrak is notorious for keeping some form of Railroad history in its' trains names. [Even though a small piece of the route it would run west is a portion of the original Milwaukee Road, and the final leg from Fargo into Chicago is on the Original Great Northern]

[Anonymous]

Oh please, "erratic operation" on the MRL?  Where does this come from?

 Well let's see...........................How-a-bout 3 months ago when I was out in Dickinson SD following an EBD Intermodal to Dilworth MN, just for the Photo's. Left Dickinson at 6:30 pm went 31 miles, stopped on the main for 4 hours, at the end of 4 hours a new crew was delivered. Train pulled out, and ran at 40 mph, for 3 hours, slowed down to 25 mph for 3 hours, picked back up to 45 mph until Mandan. Encountered no maintenence of way, or opposing trains into Mandan, the train sat in Mandan yard for 1+1/2 hours before pulling out, blew thru Bismark at 40 mph, but slowed down to 25 mph 17 miles east of Bismark. Rolled like this for 4 hours, picked up to 45 mph until Fargo where it stopped outside of town about 7-7+1/2 miles westfor 2 hours, then pulled out and rolled 30 mph into Dilworth.

For an intermodal that's awful erratic! 

  MRL's on time performance makes the BNSF look like a bunch of beginners.  Should there be an AMTK train running you can count on it being on time for an amazing percentage of the time. 

[Anonymous]

 Does it really matter if a rerouted EB takes another 12 hours?  Since when is speed an issue for EB travelers?

If it requires another trainset, it makes quite a difference.

Why would it require another trainset?

[snagletooth]

Wouldn't Amtrak have to rename the train the North Coast Limited?

Why would they have to rename it? The EB ran over CB&Q via Savanna, IL. from Twin Cities to Chicago, not MLWK via Milwaukee, Wi. If anything, it should already be called The Hiawatha Builder! Following your line of logic, that is.

[arbfbe]

Wouldn't Amtrak have to rename the train the North Coast Limited?, they'd also have to deal with the erratic operation on this route of Montana Rail Link.

Oh please, "erratic operation" on the MRL?  Where does this come from?  MRL's on time performance makes the BNSF look like a bunch of beginners.  Should there be an AMTK train running you can count on it being on time for an amazing percentage of the time. 

[Anonymous]

Wouldn't Amtrak have to rename the train the North Coast Limited?, they'd also have to deal with the erratic operation on this route of Montana Rail Link.

[nanaimo73]

 Does it really matter if a rerouted EB takes another 12 hours?  Since when is speed an issue for EB travelers?

If it requires another trainset, it makes quite a difference.

[Anonymous]

Mark, welcome back.

I would be very interested in your best guess of how much longer the Empire Builder would take between Sandpoint and Fargo over the southern route. It must be at least 12 hours (?)

Does it really matter if a rerouted EB takes another 12 hours?  Since when is speed an issue for EB travelers?

Mark,

Can you please try and condense your major points into a more concise post?

[nanaimo73]

Mark, welcome back.

I would be very interested in your best guess of how much longer the Empire Builder would take between Sandpoint and Fargo over the southern route. It must be at least 12 hours (?)

[VerMontanan]

 So until more equipment shows up and track speeds get raised, it is moot.

 I agree on the equipment end, there's not enough.  The track is ready for Amtrak or can be in a relatively short time.  I'm not sure about BNSF through Bismarck (lots of coal trains that tend to do damage to good track is a short period of time), but MRL is pretty much ready now, they just need to post the speed limits and put some superelevation back into the curves.

When I spent two weeks last year up along the Clark Fork River and MRL, I saw train after train of BNSF double stacks. 

Question:  Which line are these BNSF double stacks using east of Billings? 

Since we've *established* that any Amtrak train must follow a line that hosts intermodals, why can't we just send this new train along that line?

On my most recent trip to Malta, two people got off and two got on.  The two that got on lived in the area and were heading for Vancouver, WA.

Gosh, if this keeps up they'll have to order a whole new trainset just to keep up with demand!

If you saw "train after train" of doublestacks, it was an anomaly, or service interruption somewhere.  Normally, the MRL sees less than daily intermodal trains in each direction.  Stack trains operate from Denver to Tacoma and vice versa, and not every day.  All of the trains operate between Laurel and Denver via Greybull, Casper, and Cheyenne.  There is also a stack train scheduled to operate from Omaha to Tacoma once a week, but it often is annulled at origin.  East of Laurel, it will operate via Alliance and Sheridan.   Any intermodal trains between Spokane and west and Fargo and east on BNSF are scheduled to operate via Havre, which is about 100 miles shorter, and up to 12 hours faster (up to 24 hours faster for loaded grain trains, on average).   East of Laurel toward Forsyth, there is one westward intermodal train daily via Aberdeen (which is mostly your generic freight train) and a baretable train eastbound one day per week via Mandan.

[VerMontanan]

They won't move the Builder because it would be dumb. The Builder has the highest ridership of any long distance train in the country and most of that ridership is due to the Highline. We carry more passengers to Minot, ND and Whitefish, MT than from Chicago to Seattle. I know this because I am a conductor out of Saint Cloud, MN. The track is too slow on the southern route, there is too much traffic on the southern route and there is not enough equipment to start one right now. So until more equipment shows up and track speeds get raised, it is moot.

Right on.

First of all, this whole conversation is baseless.  Dave/Futuremodal started the thread and has said on numerous occasions that he sees no value in Amtrak, so why does he care?  Probably because the Empire Builder is well-patronized and that people along the route do see great value in the service, so therein is some kind of threat.  Besides, true supporters of rail passenger service in this country never suggest discontinuing service on one route at the expense of another.  Southern Montana should have a train, as well as many other routes in this country.  But Southern Montana will not see a train for many years until this country develops a nationwide transportation policy that includes railroads and the government provides sufficient funding for upgrading routes, buying new equipment, building or renovating stations (most stations along the Southern route couldn't accommodate a passenger train tomorrow even if there was equipment), changing the timing on grade crossing warning devices at crossings, track capacity improvements, and hiring train crew members.  Until all these issues are addressed, there will be no passenger train across Southern Montana.

In the mean time, it appears that the Empire Builder is on track to top 500,000 riders in FY2007.  The train continues as Amtrak's most popular, and it's usually in the top three with regard to on-time performance of long distance trains (along with the Southwest Chief on BNSF and City of New Orleans on CN, both with schedules that have been significantly lengthened, unlike the Empire Builder, from pre-Amtrak days).  In other words, of all long distance Amtrak trains, there are none that require less fixing than the Empire Builder.  Certainly, things could be tweaked.  While the current route has more staffed stations than any other long distance western train, I would like to see staffing, at least in the summer at places like Wisconsin Dells and West Glacier.  Amtrak Thruway bus connections from Columbus to Madison, Winona to Rochester, and Shelby and Havre to Great Falls are things that would obviously boost patronage.  But the problem is that there is limited equipment....not only is there none to create a Southern Montana train, but the Empire Builder doesn't have enough, especially in the summer.  Only along the Empire Builder is Amtrak food service in the diner and lounge supplemented by locally prepared meals being entrained en route (hundreds of the "Big Sky Picnic Dinner" are placed on the Empire Builders every day in Havre, as the single diner just can't handle the crush of 400 passengers).  True passenger train advocates will support Amtrak building on the successes of the Empire Builder and the word will get out about the benefits of passenger train travel, which will, with any luck, translate into the sufficient infrastructure upgrades necessary to expand service elsewhere.

 

[VerMontanan]

First Amtrak needs more Superliner Cars before any new Services began like a New Orders like 500 New Cars. Amtrak Superliner 1 cars are 28 plus Years old and Superliner 2 are 12 Plus Years Old.

I guess I better call my buddy at Greenbrier/Gunderson and have him dust off those sketches for converting the AutoMax articulated cars into articulated Superliners!

And I'll stand by my contention that there will never be two Amtrak routes through Montana.  As Michael points out, it is likely that most of the Empire Builder boardings in places like Whitefish et al are coming from the I-90 cities.  If there was a revived North Coast Hiawatha, it is likely the Empire Builder boardings would drop precipitously as those patrons switch to the more convenient southern Amtrak trains.  Then what would become of the EB?!

No, the best option is to move the EB further south.  Those Montana politicos who are pushing for both a new I-90 train while keeping the EB on the High Line really haven't thought things through.

Well, Michael is wrong.  Most Empire Builder boardings are NOT people who live in Southern Montana.  Many people from the Missoula area do use Amtrak at Whitefish, but it is hardly a majority based on information from Amtrak employees in Montana.  At Whitefish in the winter, for instance, I have seen nearly half the train turnover in riders on an eastbound Empire Builder when 100 people detrain and a like number entrain to and from Big Mountain.  In the summer, a big draw is Glacier National Park and the Flathead Valley in general.  Those patronizing the Empire Builder in Shelby and Havre are not from Butte and Bozeman, but rather from Great Falls, Lethbridge, and throughout the Golden Triangle.  When I asked a Havre Amtrak employee last year about how many people from Billings used the train out of Havre, the response was "once in awhile."  If this claim really had legitimacy, then it would follow that Malta would have ridership on par with Whitefish because it is, after all, the closest Amtrak stop to Billings, Montana's largest city.  In reality, Malta is among the lowest.  My experience has been that when Southern Montanans use Amtrak in Montana it is to access somewhere on Empire Builder route.  In other words, someone from Missoula would likely not drive to Whitefish to ride Amtrak to Chicago because there is an Interstate Highway, and multiple air carriers that could take you there.  But, a trip from Missoula to Minot on Northwest Airlines (Minot's only air carrier) is expensive, so driving to Whitefish to catch the train for Minot could be a better option.  And if it was true that most of the Empire Builder's ridership in Montana was from Southern Montana, this would be yet another anomaly (the first would be that a passenger train on its route would carry more passengers than the Empire Builder even though no other single passenger train in the country currently does) because it would mean that numerous Southern Montanans are willing to drive long distances to ride a train which isn't the case elsewhere....case in point: Whitefish vs. Flagstaff.   Amtrak trains at Flagstaff have multiple Thruway bus connections (guaranteed connections, through ticketing) to a huge metro area (Phoenix), and to Sedona and Grand Canyon National Park (4.3 million visitors in 2006).  Amtrak trains at Whitefish have no Thruway bus connections (through Rimrock Trailways does have a bus that runs to and from Missoula every day making very poor connections) and no other public transportation to Glacier National Park (2 million visitors in 2006).  Given the size of Phoenix and the availability of transportation to Flagstaff, patronage at Flagstaff should be huge, yet it is just one-half of that at Whitefish.  So, you can believe that most passengers on the Empire Builder in Montana are from the Southern Montana even though such usage doesn't occur elsewhere, or you can make the logical conclusion that Whitefish is a very much desired destination, with patronage bolstered by the fact that the train that serves it is the most ridden in the country.

[VerMontanan]

How is it more "2006: 19574), and the total ND ridership in 2006 was 114739, while Omaha, NE (population 390,007, ridership in 2006: 25496) and the total NE ridership was 45116?

To bring this back to Montana, the total MT ridership for 2006 was 151102, with Whitefish MT having the highest ridership at 68223.

Well, why is Spokane, with a population of nearly 600,000, showing 42,000 passengers loading while Whitefish, with 7,000 citizens, loads nearly 70,000 passengers?

Omaha loads at 2:00 a.m.. Spokane Amtrak leaves at about 1 a.m.. On the other hand, why does tiny Whitefish load nearly as much as all the other small communities on the Hi Line put together, if community size were really a factor? Whitefish happens to be close to Kalispell International airport which actually does have pretty good air service. So absence of air service is not at all the reason, or even a good one in that case; indeed, it's not that far to Spokane.

Westbound Amtrak leaves Whitefish at about 9:30 p.m. and eastbound arrives at about 7 a.m.. For many travelers in Western Montana, those just happen to be ideal times to depart and arrive, and not lose a day of work.

As a result of that pleasant coincidence, Whitefish serves a substantial urban area -- Kalispell/Missoula/Hamilton -- and the Amtrak ridership is ultimately an urban ridership, utterly unlike Chinook, Havre or Minot.

 

You need to be able to access the Amtrak website.

Scheduled times for the California Zephyr at Omaha:

No. 5 westbound: 1039 PM departure

No. 6 eastbound: 544 AM departure (always late due to slow UP track in Nevada).

 

[VerMontanan]

Didn't the NP through North Dakota used to be 79 mph as well, or was it always 50 mph max?

When the eastbound North Coast Limited was running late, which was most of the time, they made up time in North Dakota. And you hung on. And if 79 was the absolute max and nobody broke the rules, then they were doing 79 max.

 

75 MPH was maximum on the NP.

[VerMontanan]

A reroute of the Empire Builder to larger population centers might be counter-productive.  One of the strengths of Amtrak's long distance routes is that they serve the smaller towns that DON'T have alternatives.  The larger population centers tend to have some air service which is one of the reasons that people don't ride the train.  Amtrak would do better to serve smaller areas where the competition doesn't go.

Hmmmmmm....

How is it more "productive" to bypass larger population centers and instead serve smaller towns?  Is that part of Amtrak's charter?

Hmmmmmm....

What other Amtrak LD train other than the EB intentionally bypasses the larger cities to serve podunk towns?

The Empire Builder is productive because it handles more passengers than any other single Amtrak train.  I know it's difficult for some people to understand that a train is this well-patronized in an area with so few people, but it only proves those that don't understand don't know the area.  If on-line population dictates ridership, then the Empire Builder should be the least, not most patronized train.

Some statistics:

FY 2006 Loss per Seat-mile (cents)

3.5 Auto Train

5.5 Empire Builder

7.4 Palmetto

9.6 California Zephyr

10.4 City of New Orleans

11.0 Silver Meteor

11.4 Southwest Chief

11.9 Silver Star

12.5 Coast Starlight

13.1 Crescent

14.3 Capitol Ltd.

14.4 Sunset Ltd./Texas Eagle

15.5 Lake Shore Ltd.

16.3 Cardinal

No non-tourist passenger trains make money anywhere in the world, but by this gauge, of all long distance trains except Auto Train (which has no intermediate stops, and therefore the expenses of stations, etc.), the Empire Builder performs the best.

A commentary on Amtrak long distance ridership in FY2006:

Once again, the Empire Builder is Amtrak's most-ridden long distance train by far, with ridership of just under one-half million, up 4.3 percent from FY2005.  Overall ridership on long distance trains dipped slightly over the previous year due to abysmal timekeeping (notably the California Zephyr and Coast Starlight on UP),  Ridership was also less for the Sunset Limited and probably the City of New Orleans and Crescent to some extent due to some of the service being truncated for varying periods of time because of Hurricane Katrina.  Also featured was on time performance for FY2006, and only three long distance trains operated better than 50 percent on time.  These trains were operated mostly or solely by CN or BNSF.

 

FY 2006 ridership, Amtrak long-distance trains:

 

Rank	Route	Ridership	% change from 2005
1	Empire Builder	497,020	+4.3
2	California Zephyr	335,443	-3.6
3	Coast Starlight	331,939	-10.8
4	Lake Shore Limited	323,480	+3.4
5	Silver Star	311,509	+5.3
6	Southwest Chief	300,416	+1.7
7	Silver Meteor	272,879	-5.4
8	Crescent	252,072	-4.2
9	Texas Eagle	232,654	-2.8
10	Auto Train	207,544	+1.4
11	Capitol Limited	198,044	+1.5
12	City of New Orleans	175,237	-4.4
13	Palmetto	146,083	+8.5
14	Cardinal	95,076	+5.0
15	Sunset Limited	51,860	-36.2
	Total Long Distance	3,731,256	-1.3
	Total Amtrak	24,306,965	+1.1

 

 

 

On time performance, FY 2006

 

Rank	Train	% on time
1	City of New Orleans	84.4
2	Southwest Chief	73.0
3	Empire Builder	60.1
4	Cardinal	27.2
5	Lake Shore Limited	23.1
6	Crescent	20.4
7	Texas Eagle	19.7
8	Silver Service (Silver Star/Silver Meteor/Palmetto)	17.7
9	Auto Train	16.9
10	Sunset Limited	15.0
11	Capitol Limited	11.4
12	California Zephyr	6.9
13	Coast Starlight	3.9

 

 

This is the breakdown for trains from Chicago to the West Coast, and includes all trains serving the stations along the routes of these long distance trains, so the figures as indicated are most meaningful at stations served by only one train.  

Empire Builder:   Chicago,

[VerMontanan]

Can anyone tell me how they split and later rejoin the Empire Builder sections in Spokane?  Which section gets the dining and baggage car or does that not matter because the split route is not travelled during meal times?  Is there a lot of switching and shuffling of cars to make sure each section gets coaches and sleepers, or is one section coach only?  How does this work in terms of switching operations?

The train has two engines across the northern tier, and the train is split at Spokane usually about midnight. Switching the sleepers, coaches and first class into two trains takes about 45 minutes. As John mentions, the dining car goes to Seattle, and the lounge car goes to Portland.

The lounge/dome is must better utilized on the Portland leg along the Columbia River. Insofar as that limits breakfast before arriving in Portland to things wrapped in plastic; it at least has the benefit of the majestic scenery seen from the dome. By contrast to being herded, cow like, to the "community seating" enforced in the dining car, fed things that may have well been formerly wrapped in plastic, served by people who are obviously on the third day and last leg of a trip that they are fed up with, and going through a deeply unpleasant tunnel experience that manages to leave diesel fumes lingering in the cars for miles thereafter, the lounge car to Portland is actually the more positive of the two alternatives.

 

Wow.  As for the train having "two engines across the northern tier", this is incorrect.  The train has only one engine consisting of two locomotives.  The statement, "Switching the sleepers, coaches and first class into two trains takes about 45 minutes" is interesting.  Sleepers, coaches, AND first class?  Clearly Michael is unaware that sleepers ARE the first class.  And switching?  Doesn't really happen in the classic sense.  Westbound, the train is simply split between the trailing Seattle coach and the Sightseer Lounge car, which becomes the first car on the Portland section.  When the Seattle section pulls away (in as little as 20 minutes when the train is late), the engine for the Portland section couples on to what was the rear of the inbound train and leaves.  Eastbound the procedure is reversed.  The Portland section usually arrives first, with the engine removed.  The Seattle section arrives and backs onto the Portland section and the train is complete.  This also can be accomplished in about 20 minutes.  In reality, the biggest delay is transferring some of checked baggage from the Coach-Baggage car on the Portland section to the Baggage car which is in the Seattle section.   He also continues to refer to "the dome", clearly ignorant of Amtrak terminology....it is the Sightseer lounge car.  As for being "being herded, cow like, to the "community seating" enforced in the dining car", this is prime example of disinformation.  Not only is the case on Amtrak trains, but was the case on many railroads prior to Amtrak.  As for the "fed things that may have well been formerly wrapped in plastic," comment, just another example of an attempt at disinformation, for the same comment could be made about most food in America....just go to your local supermarket.  But of course, his intent is to suggest that the food quality is not what it should be.  In reality, the Empire Builder and Auto Train are the only long distance intercity passenger trains in America with all the items being freshly prepared on board.   This fact is indicated in an ABC News report that was aired in December 2006 and is still available online at:

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Travel/story?id=2777294&page=1

And on it goes with, "served by people who are obviously on the third day and last leg of a trip that they are fed up with."  I would wonder what factual basis there is for this, but of course there is none.  One can easily search the Internet for numerous positive travelogues pertaining to long distance Amtrak train travel, including the Empire Builder.  Then of course, there is the typical stab at Cascade Tunnel stating, "and going through a deeply unpleasant tunnel experience that manages to leave diesel fumes lingering in the cars for miles thereafter."  This of course yet another disinformation attempt by Michael Sol.  Again, no documentation to prove this (and ignores that fumes would be especially minimal westbound as the train is going downhill), but as someone who has ridden through Cascade Tunnel over 100 times and have never witnessed a passenger complaint (nor smelled the fumes), I can only conclude that in spite of this attempt to state something that just is not the case, I will say that Amtrak passengers just keep voting with ticket sales to the point that the train is simply the single most-ridden train in all of America.  If you do want to smell fumes every trip while riding the Empire Builder, entrain or detrain in Chicago where the boarding process is far from fume-free.  Michael's hatred of Cascade Tunnel is well documented.  He constantly touts it as the Achilles heel of the BNSF ex-Great Northern route across the Cascade Mountains.  The reality is, of course, that it remains the only route across the Cascades in continuous use since it was built and remains the primary passenger and freight route between the upper Midwest and Seattle.  Cascade Tunnel has been in continuous service for 78 years, which proves its worthiness.  Heck, there are even some transcontinental railroads in this country (well, actually only one) whose route didn't last 78 years.....

It is also interesting that Michael would even acknowledge the Portland section of the Empire Builder.  On the Milwaukee Road group in Yahoogroups in January of 2005, Michael actually stated that GN (and NP) trains like the Empire Builder never actually served Portland, but rather were a "connection" at Spokane.  I guess it just depends on the "argument" that is trying to be made.