Should UP bring back a BIG BOY into its steam prog

[favuprailroadfan]

I hope this will get alot of replies.

I wi***hat UP would bring back a Big Boy. I think it would be a big boast to their steam program and it probably would be the best thing that they could do.

Imagine this- The challenger and a big boy on a doubleheaded steam excursion lugging about 40 passenger cars down the triple track main in Nebraska. Holy cow "imagine the posibilities"!

I would like to hear yall have to say.

Dru

[Anonymous]

A Big Boy and a Challenger doubleheaded?
That would be Great. I would drive days to see it. Now lets be real. If it's in a restorable condition your talking 200 plus grand. That is how much the challenge restoration cost years ago. What do you think the real odds are that the U.P. would spring for that kind of money. I doubt they would have spent that much on the challenger had they known how much it was going to be when they started. Be thankful for what you got and support it.

chow

[Anonymous]

i wouldn't get your hopes up, but it sure would be something to see. as it is they are spending enough money keeping the 3985 and 844 in good running shape. let's hope we get to see some more of them in the future, they aren't doing a whole lot this year. (obviously not for 844 since it's in the shop)

[Anonymous]

The main reason you will not see a Big Boy restored and operated is that it is too big to operate anywhere. There are very few, if any, facilities left that can handle turning such a large engine. It simply would not be practical to spend the money to restore it and not be able to run it. Sure it would be something to see, but don't count on it.

[Anonymous]

I've heard it said that a Big Boy COULD use a Challenger turning facility (just!). But, surely, it would be best first of all to get one inside so it does not deteriorate any more (hence cheaper to restore!).

As to money, the US IS supposed to be the richest country in the world....I mean, if over here in the UK we can build ourselves a NEW A1 (The Tornado), surely a Big Boy could be restored.

Jason.

[Anonymous]

Bringing the Big Boy back would be awesome; however, I thought a restoration was already in progess. I can't remember which engine was choosen but I seem to think it was one from Steamtown, Scaton, PA. I could be wrong.

I don't know why at least two of the respondents were pesimistic and a third was doubtful, but this is America, if we want something done bad enough it will done.

Also, consider this: restoration of a Southern Pacific cab forward 4-8-8-2 -- now THAT would be awesome!

There ya go.

P.S. - rumor has it Challenger #3985 will be in Kansas City, MO Union Station June 13-15, 2001.

[Anonymous]

I thought I heard a few years back that some company in Texas was partially restoring a Big Boy
to use it in some sort of film. I'm not sure what became of that idea. It would be great to see one fully restored to operating condition.

Dave.

[Anonymous]

Pessimistic! Did I sound pessimistic?
Please, let me explain. I recently enjoyed a trip to the northwest (USA) this spring.
This was the first time I’ve been able to visit in about Twenty years. On my last visit
to Snowquamie there was a little museum with two running Steam Engines. On this trip
what I found nearly brought me to tears. The steam engines are in an awful state. I stopped at the depot and talked with its keeper who explained that they are trying to raise money to build a structure to get them out of the weather. Right now they can’t come up with some traps to protect the equipment until they can get a hard roof. They want to restore the two engines, get them running again. I wi***hem well, but I think there’s too much damage done now for that to happen. None-the-less I gave them a donation. On my last trip I visited former Sierra #38 at Crane Creek, it didn’t seem it would have taken much to give her the breath of life. Toady I understand she’s in pieces behind a fence in Shasta, California. On my last trip there was a railroad museum in Cottage Grove, Oregon. Not today. I‘m told that the three steam engines that use to call it home are rusted out hulks, not even on rail, somewhere in central Oregon.
In rail preservation there are many conflicts of opinion and interest that get in the way of constructive work.
So you have independent museums who struggle just to keep their equipment from being reclaimed by the elements and those who are able to turn theirs into Icons complete with cathedral (and don’t you dare try and use a tripod so you can take decent pictures with their Gothic lighting levels). Any restoration requires vast sums that continue to grow with inflation. Add in the small size of the group willing to pay for it and the REALISITIC picture does not conjure up optimism in me.
Please be happy with what we do have and support it.

Thank you

[Anonymous]

UP's 4000's were designed specificaly for the Wahsatch grade between Ogden, Utah and Green River, Wyoming. Their territory was later expanded east to Cheyenne. This was the only territory built to handle these engines, and they were restricted to these divisions for that reason. Unlike diesel operations today, steam locomotives were designed for specific territories and operated within their divisions, unlike diesels running through and remaining with the train for its entire route. It was not practical for a railroad to build its entire plant to handle it's largest power when it was only run on a specific division or divisions. Today, there simply aren't many places left to run a 4000 anymore. It would probably take several million dollars to restore one to operating condition. I doubt $200,000 would go much beyond an FRA inspection and boiler test. One other operating snag would be fueling. The 4000's have too large of a firebox to facilitate oil firing. UP tried it once with the 4005 and could not get it to work. So now you have the problem of getting enough coal to enough places to keep it running. Of course filling the tender is going to be a challenge in itself. Recall, also, the first trips the 3985 made fired with coal and all of the fires it started from the hot cinders. UP converted it to oil very quickly after that.
I do not mean to sound so negative, I'm just being realistic. I would love nothing more than to see a 4000 under steam, and I would eat my words with relish. It just isn't practical or economical to spend that much money to restore an engine and not be able to operate it anywhere.

[Anonymous]

Here’s a web site that dealing with the restoration of 4018 www.bigboy4018.com/frames.html
The cost was estimated at $2,000,000.00 The site has not been updated for some time from what I can tell so I have no idea what the status is.
Could it be restored and run? All it takes is money, unfortunately a boatload of it!
Turning the monster would be a problem and while the UP has been steam friendly I don’t see them wanting to mangle their rails running a 4000 on fan trips. You could hope that a class 1 wants to abandon enough right of way to provide an interesting run but the amount of real estate to build turning wyes at both ends would be rather large.
In retrospect for a small portion (I’m talking 10%) of a pro ball players salary this piece of history could be breathing fire again, any body know a generous railfan ball player?
The Sacramento rail museum has a restored cab forward cosmetically restored not running but looks like all you need to do is add water.

[Anonymous]

WOW! That got a responce. I did not mean to offend if I did. I understand what you guys mean a little better now.

Anyway, I asked the engineers of the Challenger if they knew anything about a Big Boy restoration. They said, "We don't want anything to do with it." I wasn't expecting Union Pacific to do a restoration anyway, they've got their hands full already and RR Comapany would rather spend their money on supporting their existing equipment and I don't blame them.

Thanks, all of you, for the replys. They are informational and help to present a bigger picture.

[cprted]

A steam locomotive restoration is a very long and involved task (I know this first hand). Being a Canadian I not up on the condition of the big boy, but what I heard was that when UP retired them they cut the driving rod in a way that cosmetically it still looks ok but would need to be replaced before it would ever run again. But that isn't the major problem. When you look at the possibility of restoring a steam engine the first place you go is the boiler. A shot boiler can turn a $500,000 restoration job into a $5,000,000 restoration job. The best thing to do with locos with bad boilers is slap a new coat of paint on and put it behind glass.

[Anonymous]

One thing that would work in favor of restoring a Big Boy is the fact that approximately half of those that were built still exist, unlike a NYC Hudson (among others) which to the best of my knowledge were all scrapped without so much as a "Park Locomotive" saved. I realize an operating Big Boy would be an expensive, impractical project, but Boy would it be something to see!!

[Anonymous]

You're right about the NYC Hudson...the result of the same shortsightedness that busted the NYC and, finally, Penn Central...and there were scores of them in their heyday!

[Anonymous]

Where there is the will there is a way, the saying goes. What I find strange about the US steam scene is there appear to be no clubs. In the UK the Tornado project is being funded by thousands of railfans all donating £20 per month. They all think they belong to the 'club'. Why not do the same for the big boy? But look at the Challenger you have. They (UP) don't market it. I would come over from the UK to see and ride, but there are no dates, routes or ways to predict when it is going out. In the UK there are steam hauled trains every week on the mainline. Take a look at http://www.march.demon.co.uk/tours/trs01.htm. From this page and other sources every steam rail fan in the UK can go and ride or look throughout the year. The trips cost £50 each and keep the locos running. Why not the same in the US?

[Anonymous]

I heard in the Trains Magazine that there was a museum or something of that nature planning to restore or rebuild their Big Boy. But so far no one has made any kind of statement as how the project is going or that it has been cancelled. It would be great to have an operating Big Boy only problem is that the only operating railroad that could handle a Big Boy is the Union Pacific and they only have three places within very shorts distances of each other to turn the engine.

[Anonymous]

Would any of the track in use today even support the weight of a Big Boy fully loaded with water and coal?

[thirdrail1]

The difference between the US and UK (as regards steam railroading) is first, the equipment and track are generally under common ownership in the US and the owners are reluctant to share their track with others because of the second reason, the litigious nature of the US trial lawyers. These scavengers see see the opportunity for enrichment in every rail excursion. Most proposed excursions never operate because, rightly, the insurance companies are unwilling to insure them. The British legal system discourages opportunistic lawsuits.

[Soo2610]

AMEN! Scavengers is too polite!
Other problem is that for whatever reason, I've seen number of articles stating that continuous rail, even though heavier, has its own problems with the pounding from large steam locomotives.

[Anonymous]

In general I agree with your comments - but I would imagine that conversion to oil firing these days might be a possibility. After all, the previous attempt must have been, what?, 50 years ago.

[Anonymous]

Pipe Dream.....

What if all the Big-Boys were to be examined in detail, and the best bits from each were to be used? Maybe ONE has a decent boiler that was properly protected when it was last used - withdrawn from careful storage maybe.
Presumably any composite one would have to be overhauled where the bes boiler is - transporting THAT would just about counter any other savings.

[Anonymous]

What you need to do is to get some lawyers interested in steam trains. So, any lawyers out there who are interested in steam trains, the Big Boy's need you!
In the UK, if we had such a monster loco, we would get it running - where there's a will, there's a way! And we are ONLY the fourth richest country in the world!

[Anonymous]

Any locomotive even ones with no existing examples can be built or restored.
All it takes is someone or a group that wants to see a paticuler engine under steam, regardless of any practical limits on cost or operability.
Somday someone might spend a few millon just to blow a 4000's whistle :)

[Anonymous]

Maybe slightly off this topic, but in the Sept. 2001 issue of "Trains" All ALCO issue, Big Boy rates a "Double" centerfold. Should be of interest to Big Boy fans. Ron.

[Anonymous]

jason...a minor point, but the "US" doesn't have ANY money....only the taxpayers do...bob obrien

[Anonymous]

Russ....I would submit that the UK is somewhat smaller than the US and therefore not as subject to "provincialism." If such a restoration were to be centered, let's say in Cheyenne, WY (where one resides in a local park), it would be diffucult to generate donation enthusiasm from other parts of the country where those railfans are loyal to many different railroads.

[Anonymous]

I think they should bring one back because that was a big part of steam back in the day.

[Anonymous]

Just got the 'ALCO Issue' of 'Trains'. Looks very interesting; the fold-out is good (a pity it is not in colour!). BUT, you can get a good impression of the size and power of the Big Boy.

[psa188]

UP's not going to reactivate a Big Boy, no matter how many people'd like to see it. Steve Lee seems to get asked about this every time he speaks in public and he has stated repeatedly that it's not going to happen.

[Anonymous]

I stood on a bigboy once at the Denver RR museum.

You are talking one mammoth locomotive. And considering is stage of decay, one mammoth restore project.

It would be nice to see, but i doubt UP would want to fund it, or the insuring of it.

Nice thought though.