The Southern - Illinois / March 4, 2007
Local police find remedy for long trains
PERRY COUNTY - There are more than 14,000 different places in Illinois to get stuck waiting for a train to cross the road.There is no length limit for freight trains, Steve Lafferty of the Illinois Commerce Commission said in a recent telephone interview. The average train is about one mile long, with lengths up to two miles not uncommon. But trains cannot block a crossing for more than 10 minutes.
The Canadian National Railroad was cited on Feb. 20 in Perry County for blocking a crossing too long. The Union Pacific Railroad was cited for the same thing in Perry County in December.Perry County Sheriff Keith Kellerman said fining an engineer is a little bit trickier than fining a motorist. However, he said, he recognizes that prolonged crossing blockages are a problem. He said the longest delays lately seem to be near the St. Johns community north of Du Quoin. Trains there have blocked the crossing for 15 or 20 minutes, he said."We've always tried to address complaints," he said. "We're not always successful. Sometimes by the time we get there, the train is gone. It depends where we are in the county and if we can get to the crossing in time."State law decrees trains are permitted to block railroad crossings for no longer than 10 minutes. Delays longer than that can result in fines for the railroad company - the longer the crossing is blocked, the higher the fine. A 15-minute crossing blockage can lead to a $500 fine for a railroad. If the blockage is 30 minutes, the fine is $1,000, with an additional $500 for every five minutes after that.
Full story here
I wouldnt want to be a police officer when I A. Illegally board a locomotive, B. Interupt engineer talking and swearing to himself about how slow his conductor is, and C. Give him a huge ticket for something he cannot control.
Brass reverser handles can hurt, lemme tell ya.
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
The CROR in Canada says a train cannot STAND on a crossing for more than 5 minutes. That means you are not allowed to be stopped for more than 5 minutes. The rule book has no limits to how long you are allowed to block a crossing if you are moving.
Think about it, if you have a 2.5 mile long train and a 10mph slow order, You are almost guaranteed to be blocking that crossing for a long time.
Therefor, as long as you are moving, there shouldn't be any restrictions what so ever.
10000 feet and no dynamics? Today is going to be a good day ...
It seems rather foolish for cities to think they can bother the crew with this nonsense. I presume most of these posts are talking about locals switching in the examples above. Whatever they can do to be out of the way is most likely being done anyway. What about a through train that has a Red signal and blocks a street? I know, give the police officer the radio and let the dispatcher give his/her info, or call the passenger train up ahead that has the station stop, they're the cause of the hold up anyway.. ;)
mphill66
mp
They can only write a ticket to railroad company as crew it is beyond my control to where train needs to be stopped for signals , setouts, reverse moves, etc.
If a police officer were to board the train I can trow him and his ticket out the window, A] for illegally boarding a federal controlled mode of transportation without consent. B] on entering without a search warrant.
And then again I am not the legal repreresetative of said railroad so I can trow him out the window, If he treatens me with his peeshooter and decides to take me to hokky pokky thattrain will really really sit on those crossings longer than he thinks and his future at police department will sink to zero/nill.
There is a similar problem on NS's New Castle District south of Fort Wayne, IN. The first siding south of town is a favorite place to park a train until there is room in the yard or the other main the train will be traveling. There is one NIMBY that lives on the road that crosses in the middle of the siding that calls the sherriff as soon as a long train stops. The first few times the officer would park his car on the tracks at the next road crossing near the engines to write the tickets and give them to the crew. (not too smart) After a few times of this the dispatchers would tell the trains to stop on the main before the siding and block other crossings to avoid this one person, who could drive the other way on the road to get where they want to go. Now twenty people are inconvenienced instead of two. NS just moves the hold point when the locals start complaining. When a train does get "caught" blocking the crossings, the officer just notes the time/date/engine numbers and mails the ticket in. NS treats it like just another cost of doing business and continues to park trains as needed. NS has tried to close this crossing in exchange for "upgrading" other crossings, but, of course, the NIMBY objects and the county renegs on the deal.
There is a very serious consequence that grows out of these unreasonably long, frustrating crossing blockages that often occur. These experiences nurture, in the motoring public, a collective willingness to take a risk of beating a train.
Grade crossings seem to have an almost magnetic attraction to vehicle collision events compared to conflicting routes on roadways. How often do you see someone come up to a red traffic light and race across to beat a semi barreling down on the intersection? It never happens. The only difference is that many people perceive a train-crossing event only as something that can produce a delay that has no predictable endpoint. Another closely related factor is that, due to a unique combination of optical effects, trains usually appear to be moving slower than they actually are, which tends to mitigate the risk in the mind of a motorist.
I am not saying that these factors excuse the grade crossing risk taking; just that they help to explain it. I know that Operation Lifesaver, the police, the railroad companies, and highway designers have placed great emphasis on the analysis of grade crossing safety issues. However, I have never heard them take into account the contributing effect that grade crossing delays has on the psyche of the motoring public.
maybe if people slowed down just a little in their daily lives they wouldn't have to worry about the train blocking the crossing. Most rail events at crossings are no longer than one would set at a red light yet for those few times they are people get mad. Yes even a 7000' train will pass a crossing in less than 2 minutes at 40-50 mph. I for one learn fairly quickly which crossings have the longest delays and try to avoid them.
This is once again nothing more than everyone being more worried about themselves, if we just slowed down a little maybe the tension between the public and the railroad would be less.
traisessive1 wrote:The CROR in Canada says a train cannot STAND on a crossing for more than 5 minutes. That means you are not allowed to be stopped for more than 5 minutes. The rule book has no limits to how long you are allowed to block a crossing if you are moving.
The 5 minutes starts when the first vehicle or pedestrian shows up at the crossing. As long as there is no one around you can block the crossing as long as you want. But when the first vehicle or pedestrian stops at the crossing, that is when your 5 minutes start.
This brings to mind something that happened here about ten years ago...
I was in high school, and obviously a railfan, so I spent quite a bit of my time down at the tracks. For anyone interested, this occurred on the UP Little Rock Sub at roughly CP051, in Jefferson. At the time, we had a local police chief named Harry, who was the bane of everyone's existance. His personal police car was a souped up Camaro when everyone else was stuck with the new Impalas. He was always at the car wash with that darn car, and even drove it home every night.
At any rate, the UP was just starting to recover from the SP merger meltdown, and those stack trains were running at top track speed through town. Harry got it into his mind to stop one of these speeding intermodals and cite the engineer for speeding. No, I'm not joking.
The particular evening in question, I was parked between the little Jefferson yard and the KCS Greenville Sub's mainline. There is an interlocker close by, and it's good train-watching. The sun was pretty low in the sky when, all of a sudden, I see that stupid Camero race by me, then suddenly stop ON THE TRACKS at the grade crossing. He lit his red and blue lights and aimed his spot toward the west. Sure enough, I could hear the UP train blowing for another crossing. I knew this would be trouble, and had it been anyone else I'd have called the cops, but this WAS the cops. So, I turned up my scanner and decided to watch. What else was there to do? Too late to try to alert the UP train.
The train comes around the bend, sees the police car on the track, and immediately he throws his train into emergency and lays on the horn. Harry stood there, on the tracks, until this screamer came to a stop. The conductor was on the radio practically screaming that he was in emergency for a cop car on the tracks, and a KCS train approaching the interlocker answered that they'd be stopping at the signal that guards the diamond.
Old Harry starting walking down the tracks (not very far, the train had come to a stop about 100 feet from him and his precious car) and proceeds to board the lead locomotive, ticket book in hand. After a few minutes, he comes out and walks back to his car, kills the lights, and leaves. The crew was on the horn to Omaha Dispatcher 29, who couldn't believe what had happened. He gave them the go-ahead to get back up to speed. Of course, the KCS train was monitoring the channel and the guys talked back and forth about the stupidity of it all for several minutes. Harry actually had given the engineer a citation.
Anyway, I'm not sure how it all turned out. Within a few months Harry was gone for another reason...dope dealing. Still, I've a feeling that Uncle Pete wasn't pleased about that ticket.
And no, I don't know whether or not the engineer had to show up in local traffic court.
That sounds just like small town wisconsin.
Kurt.
BlakeTyner wrote:This brings to mind something that happened here about ten years ago... I was in high school, and obviously a railfan, so I spent quite a bit of my time down at the tracks. For anyone interested, this occurred on the UP Little Rock Sub at roughly CP051, in Jefferson. At the time, we had a local police chief named Harry, who was the bane of everyone's existance. His personal police car was a souped up Camaro when everyone else was stuck with the new Impalas. He was always at the car wash with that darn car, and even drove it home every night. At any rate, the UP was just starting to recover from the SP merger meltdown, and those stack trains were running at top track speed through town. Harry got it into his mind to stop one of these speeding intermodals and cite the engineer for speeding. No, I'm not joking.The particular evening in question, I was parked between the little Jefferson yard and the KCS Greenville Sub's mainline. There is an interlocker close by, and it's good train-watching. The sun was pretty low in the sky when, all of a sudden, I see that stupid Camero race by me, then suddenly stop ON THE TRACKS at the grade crossing. He lit his red and blue lights and aimed his spot toward the west. Sure enough, I could hear the UP train blowing for another crossing. I knew this would be trouble, and had it been anyone else I'd have called the cops, but this WAS the cops. So, I turned up my scanner and decided to watch. What else was there to do? Too late to try to alert the UP train.The train comes around the bend, sees the police car on the track, and immediately he throws his train into emergency and lays on the horn. Harry stood there, on the tracks, until this screamer came to a stop. The conductor was on the radio practically screaming that he was in emergency for a cop car on the tracks, and a KCS train approaching the interlocker answered that they'd be stopping at the signal that guards the diamond.Old Harry starting walking down the tracks (not very far, the train had come to a stop about 100 feet from him and his precious car) and proceeds to board the lead locomotive, ticket book in hand. After a few minutes, he comes out and walks back to his car, kills the lights, and leaves. The crew was on the horn to Omaha Dispatcher 29, who couldn't believe what had happened. He gave them the go-ahead to get back up to speed. Of course, the KCS train was monitoring the channel and the guys talked back and forth about the stupidity of it all for several minutes. Harry actually had given the engineer a citation.Anyway, I'm not sure how it all turned out. Within a few months Harry was gone for another reason...dope dealing. Still, I've a feeling that Uncle Pete wasn't pleased about that ticket. And no, I don't know whether or not the engineer had to show up in local traffic court.
Ploice or not, shoulda flat out kicked his ***.
As a police officer I just have to make a few comments in response to some of these posts...
First...to enter a locomotive cab a search warrant is not needed. It is not covered the same as a residence with an expectation of privacy. After all, we don't need a warrant to talk to you in your car now do we?
2nd...If the ordinance is local or state, the officer has the authority to issue it to both the train operator as well as the corporation. Plus anyone else who allows such actions to occur. Dispatcher, road foreman, etc...
3rd..If you decide to be like the tough guy who says to kick the officers a**...good luck with that because you will not only get the beatdown of your life, but will spend mucho time in the pokey...use your brains not your balls.
4th...remember that as an officer we are just there to enforce the laws. We may not agree with them, we sure as hell didn't write them, but it is our job to enforce them...period. Nothing personal, unless you are a complete a**. You will get much further with an officer being courteous and polite than giving attitude. It can be all the difference between a warning and every ticket I can think of.
Just my thoughts...
Marc
youngengineer wrote: maybe if people slowed down just a little in their daily lives they wouldn't have to worry about the train blocking the crossing. Most rail events at crossings are no longer than one would set at a red light yet for those few times they are people get mad. Yes even a 7000' train will pass a crossing in less than 2 minutes at 40-50 mph. I for one learn fairly quickly which crossings have the longest delays and try to avoid them.This is once again nothing more than everyone being more worried about themselves, if we just slowed down a little maybe the tension between the public and the railroad would be less.
I agree that most crossing events are only a couple minutes, and impatience would be completely unreasonable in such cases. But I was referring to blockages that last 10-30 minutes or more. I don't think we would have the term, crossing delay if it were not for these kinds of events. Almost every driver is eventually treated to one of these, and some may associate this potential inconvenience with every grade crossing event they encounter thereafter. Even if the train appears to moving fast enough to not cause a significant delay, they know that it could just as well come to a stop after blocking the crossing, and remain there for no understandable reason, for an indefinite period of time. They also know that if the blockage continues, and traffic backs up behind them, it becomes harder to turn around and look for another route. Surely this is a significant motive for the unreasonable risk taking that is unique to grade crossings.
vtCSX wrote: As a police officer I just have to make a few comments in response to some of these posts...3rd..If you decide to be like the tough guy who says to kick the officers a**...good luck with that because you will not only get the beatdown of your life, but will spend mucho time in the pokey...use your brains not your balls.Just my thoughts...Marc
I have a question if a train is a federally regulated vehicle wouldn't the police officier need a warrant to board the locomotive? now if it were a federal agent they would not.
The reason why I ask this as boats are federally regulated vessels also, when you get stopped by the sheriff or DNR they cannot board you vessel without a warrant, however the coasties can as they are federal agents, the reason why I know this is when I was in the CG and we would have joint exercises with sheriff and DNR I noticed that they would never board the vessels, So I asked about it and that what I was told
Rich
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Conductor is in charge of the train, give him the ticket!
If John law wants to take someone to jail, be sure that person has all the hazardous waybills in their possession.. It's like a get out of jail free card when the law finds the train can't move without the bills.
Above all DO NOT show them your drivers license, the only ID you have to show is your company ID card or rules card.
rrboomer wrote: If John law wants to take someone to jail, be sure that person has all the hazardous waybills in their possession.. It's like a get out of jail free card when the law finds the train can't move without the bills.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
vtCSX wrote:As a police officer I just have to make a few comments in response to some of these posts...First...to enter a locomotive cab a search warrant is not needed. It is not covered the same as a residence with an expectation of privacy. After all, we don't need a warrant to talk to you in your car now do we?2nd...If the ordinance is local or state, the officer has the authority to issue it to both the train operator as well as the corporation. Plus anyone else who allows such actions to occur. Dispatcher, road foreman, etc...3rd..If you decide to be like the tough guy who says to kick the officers a**...good luck with that because you will not only get the beatdown of your life, but will spend mucho time in the pokey...use your brains not your balls.4th...remember that as an officer we are just there to enforce the laws. We may not agree with them, we sure as hell didn't write them, but it is our job to enforce them...period. Nothing personal, unless you are a complete a**. You will get much further with an officer being courteous and polite than giving attitude. It can be all the difference between a warning and every ticket I can think of.Just my thoughts...Marc
First, I apologize for that a** kicking remark, kinda got me angry, but I kno most police officers are super buff. My grandfather was the Chief of Police for 30 years.
*highlighted red* Well then yell through the locomotive window.
I have talked to the operations director of a short line here in Georgia about fouling crossings. The railroad has a unique relationship with the communities along their main line. When their volunteer fire departments get called out, their dispatchers come up on the radio frequency of the railroad. The crews have standing orders to break trains or stay clear of crossings when a call comes out.
The reason for the anti fouling laws is simply to allow emergency vehicles the ability to cross tracks on their way to calls and from calls.
In my hometown here in Georgia, there is a branch line of the NS that runs down the middle of a city street, right in front of the main fire station. The trains, mostly local freights, maintain an even and steady speed. I have seen them stop for fire trucks departing on calls.
It is unnessecary for the railroads to be seen as the bad guys, and locals to be seen as anti-railroad, if both sides recognize why laws are the way they are and work fairly (and equitably) to a solution.
By the way, as a former Deputy, I would have big time problems with anyone laying hands on me. I might not be in the right by being in the cab of a locomotive, but the engineer that tries to "throw me off" by force is equally wrong and in Alabama, is subject to five years state prison time.
Erik
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