On a permissive red signal, an engineer is allowed to proceed provided he (or she) is moving at a speed that would permit him to bring his train to a complete stop before striking any obstruction. Certainly obstructions would include any train ahead, including any passengers boarding or disembarking at a station.
I would like to know how "obstruction" (my word) is formally defined, and if it would include something like a large tree across the track or a washout around a blind curve, something a train might well hit had the signal been green.
RJ Emery near Santa Fe, NM
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 wrote:It can be a red flag, thrown there by an efficiency tester.
I never thought the railroads would deliberately test an engine crew in such a manner. Don't all locomotives carry black boxes that can be examined after the fact to show what ensued from start to finish on any given run?
Seems such efficiency testers could be put to better uses, like determining why so many derailments occur each week. Those are track and rolling stock problems, not engine crew problems.
rjemery wrote: tree68 wrote:It can be a red flag, thrown there by an efficiency tester.I never thought the railroads would deliberately test an engine crew in such a manner. Don't all locomotives carry black boxes that can be examined after the fact to show what ensued from start to finish on any given run?Seems such efficiency testers could be put to better uses, like determining why so many derailments occur each week. Those are track and rolling stock problems, not engine crew problems.
csx engineer
csxengineer98 wrote:yes the railroads DO test crews like that... and its REQUIRED by the FRA that managment do so many of these E-Tests a month...
Sad day. I bet that takes all the fun and glamour out of the job.
What's the typical pass/fail ratio, and what happens to the engine crew in event of a failure?
rjemery wrote: csxengineer98 wrote:yes the railroads DO test crews like that... and its REQUIRED by the FRA that managment do so many of these E-Tests a month...Sad day. I bet that takes all the fun and glamour out of the job. What's the typical pass/fail ratio, and what happens to the engine crew in event of a failure?
Quote: " . . .dont have the pass/fail numbers..but if a crew fails..they are taken out of service.. hitting a simulated obstruction device as they are called...is treated just as if you went by a red signal.."
That does sound like a very good test to see if an engineer knows how to deal with a permissive red correctly. Safety first, last and always, but it would seem to me that the engineer could also get (fired, reprimanded, etc.) if he stood stock still at a discernible, permissible red.
On the Pennsy main line, the old track-spanning signal towers are coming down, undoubtedly to be replaced with something simple but reliable. I don't know if CTC is a prerequisite the carrier had to have or has to get in order to go to the very simple CPL-type of signal, but it would make sense.
It would also make sense to that me under the old system of multiple signals conveying essentially the same information but under different modes or arrays of communication--that it just might give extra context in an ambiguous situation like shall-we-go-slow or shall-we-stay-put. Perhaps the veteran hoggers could chip in on this: were redundant signals (all giving the same basic command) of more help in unusual situations? Lacking radio-tel communications with a road-wide Central Dispatcher, possibly lacking any radio, possibly, not on CTC, it would seem to me that I'd want all the redundancy I could muster. Did it annoy you and the fireman to get the same info over and over and over, or did you see a benefit?
Not too long ago a thead concerned a new Class I hiree who was worried that he might not quickly master his road's rather complicated signals. Like bridge (which needs only about a 20 words to speak volumes), or bidding at an auction, it's context that can make a difference. Nobody can learn language (or meta-language) from a book. Memorizing phrases does not a linguist or a skilled engineer make. But I've a hunch the new guy will catch on pretty quickly; at least, modern linguistics says humans are primed to learn new modes of communication. For those of you who say "No habla espanol" I bet you'd catch on really quickly if you were totally immersed in the language and culture. In terms of American railroad signalling, you wouldn't call it "total immersion" but "OJT" instead, but the two terms describe essentially the same process even if relating from slightly different viewpoints.
Of course it's entirely possible I am just guessing because indeed I am; but if the era of the old triple-style signals is ending, is it just due to the better technology? Or to put it another way, if I am riding beyond Harrisburg PA is my Amtrak train, am I any more or any less safe from a crash with the most modern signals compared to, say, riding the Broadway Limited in 1928?
Al
An obstruction could be another train; standing equipement; improperly line switch or derail; simulated obstruction (ie the "Banner Test"); sometimes washed out track or a tree down. At least in my territory, a train is never permitted into the same block as another train discharging passengers.
However, a landslide or downed tree, unless the track is equipped with slide detectors, will not trip an automatic block signal to red. In addition, unless the "Banner" is equipped with a shunt device, the automatic signal will not trip to red. Usually, in both these cases, the crew will be talked by an absolute signal or be issued an instruction to operate at restricted speed between such and such a milepost.
As for testing crews in this manner. First it's required by the FRA. Second, it's a good way to make sure the crews are following the proper procedures. I've seen many wrecks, where a crew passed a red (either a permissive or with permission by) and plowed into standing equipment, or ran through an improperly lined switch or derail. If you run over a banner, it's treated like failing to stop at a stop signal, and you'll get 30 days on the street.
Nick
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
There was an old adage at work in my last job, a non-railroading job, but equally applicable there.:
In the final analysis, you get what you inspect, not what you expect.
Art
artschlosser wrote: There was an old adage at work in my last job, a non-railroading job, but equally applicable there.:In the final analysis, you get what you inspect, not what you expect.Art
***********************************************
Great line! I'll have to remember that one.
It all boils down to:
Do what the signal tells you to do and you won't get into trouble.
nbrodar wrote:An obstruction could be another train; standing equipement; improperly line switch or derail; simulated obstruction (ie the "Banner Test"); sometimes washed out track or a tree down.
What is a "Banner Test", and why is it so named?
At least in my territory, a train is never permitted into the same block as another train discharging passengers.
It seems every signal in my area is a persmissive red, including those along the Northeast Corridor. I have seen NJ Transit commuter trains creep up on other trains at station stops, ready to move in as soon as the train ahead clears the platform. Not sure if I have ever seen an Amtrak train go beyond the red, but that does seem to be standard practice. I have also seen trains stopped dead at the red waiting for the block ahead to clear before moving into the station.
Along the ex-LV (freight only), most signals appear to be permissive reds. The trains don't stop but just move slowly. The track ahead (e/b) is a straightaway for miles. One reason for the permissive reds I think is the number of grade crossings. A stopped train, if long enough (100+ cars), could tie up motor vehicle road traffic for miles in just a few minutes. Even slow moving freights through a grade crossing cause large traffic jams. This could hamper emergency vehicles (police, fire, ambulance) from getting into certain areas.
Absolute reds occur at merge points -- where two tracks merge into one. I've seen w/b traffic stacked up -- one behind the other -- on track 2 waiting for e/b traffic to clear the single line. It appears that e/b traffic is always superior on the LV single track.
That single track between Bound Brook, NJ, and Potter (North Edison), NJ, will soon be history. Grading has already started for a second mainline track, foundations for new signal towers are in place, and new electrical boxes for crossing gates and the signals have been installed. Historically, the ex-LV had a minimum of two tracks and in many places four tracks as it traversed NJ. Judging from the new signal foundations, I suspect Potter will also have crossover switches installed.
There are two general types of Red Signals - Permissive and Absolute.
Absolute signals, generally, are controlled by a control operator (dispatcher or interlocking operator). They can make the signal whatever color they want depending on how things are set up. Absolute signals also can not be passed when "displaying STOP Indication" except under the direction of the control operator and in accord to specific rules or instructions. Normally, they can not be passed at a rate of speed faster than walking - but again, check your rules, timetable and timetable-special instructions and the bullitins thereto. Some situations will permit Restricted Speed.
Automatic signals (ABS) can be passed AFTER the train has come to a complete stop and movement can not exceed Restricted Speed until after the rear of your train has passed the next signal displaying a less restrictive indication - such as flashing red, yellow, green and so on.
Plated signals, whether Absolute or Automatic, display indications for certain conditions that may or may not require a stop but cause the signal to display stop. These usually have a triangle with the letter "P". Again, see your rules, TT, TT-SI, bullitins, etc. Absolute signals may or may not display a plate (seldom do), but if permissive conditions exist, they will display a flashing red (proceed without stopping, prepared to stop at the next signal, and not exceeding Restricted Speed). This signal may be coded by the control operator or by some protective device such as a slide detector, high water detector, collision detector and so on.
Passenger stations are protected by an Absolute Signal one (at least) trainlength each direction from the depot. Not even God can get another train past that signal when passengers are entraining or detraining.
A "new" "P" or "G" signal indication has started to be used instead of the plates, and that is the flashing red mentioned above
kenneo wrote:Passenger stations are protected by an Absolute Signal one (at least) trainlength each direction from the depot. Not even God can get another train past that signal when passengers are entraining or detraining.
Not sure if I have seen that on the NEC. I think I have.
rjemery wrote: kenneo wrote:Passenger stations are protected by an Absolute Signal one (at least) trainlength each direction from the depot. Not even God can get another train past that signal when passengers are entraining or detraining.God has been superseded on the Northeast Corridor. Either that, or there are a number of ex-engineers now on the unemployment line.
More than one train in a station on the same track?????? YIKES
kenneo wrote:More than one train in a station on the same track?????? YIKES
That is normal every day standard practice at Penn Station in NYC. In fact, if I make my way to track level from other than the main concourse and before the official boarding announcement is made, I have to ask a Trainman where I need to board for my destination. One NJ Transit train may be heading towards the Jersey Shore, another to Trenton on the NEC, and still another to somewhere else. See map at http://www.njtransit.com/images/railmap06.jpg for all the possibilities.
I have not seen more than three NJ Transit trains stacked on one track. Separation between the trains is about two feet, if that. It certainly gives you an idea of just how big Penn Station is at track level, and that capacity was largely built back in the 1930s.
However, the situation I was relating occurred at another NEC station, where two trains at the station is physically impossible (except for Newark, NJ). One train is in the station, discharging and receiving passengers, while another sits 100 yards behind, well past its red signal, waiting to move in to the station as soon as the train ahead pulls out.
At Newark, tracks are numbered A, 1, 2 (e/b), 3 (e/b or w/b) and 4 and 5 (w/b), not including the two Port Authority Trans-Hudson (PATH) tracks. Track 5 is normally reserved for the diesel-powered Raritan Valley Line. At evening rush hour, as one train approaches departure time, there is normally the next train scheduled already nosing into the station. The same also holds true for trains on tracks 3 and 4, but there the separation is about 200 yards minimum.
To complete the picture at Penn Station Newark, immediately east of the station is an immense multi-span drawbridge over the Passaic River, the scene of at least one deadly accident, where a train plunged head first into the water with cars following.
http://www.citynoise.org/upload/9244.jpg gives you an railfan's view out of the lead car of a w/b PATH train about to cross the bridge into Newark station. I am not certain of the interlocking, but w/b there is definitely an absolute red guarding the bridge and possibly another signal just at the entrance to the station.
For the Newark Bay accident, see the entry for September 15, 1958 at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_1950-1999_rail_accidents
Every railroad does it different.
On the CN Waukesha Sub, Absolute signals do not have a number plate. The only time you can go past a red is if you get talked by.
Permissive signals have a number plate. Red signal can be passed as long as you do not exceed restricted speed. Usually there is a guy in the block ahead, so don't hit him.
A restricting aspect is either a flashing red or lunar (white). Searchlight signals seem not to flash, so the lunar is used.
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
WSOR 3801,
What does the MFJ in your signature represent?
rjemery wrote: What is a "Banner Test", and why is it so named?
A Banner Test is method for testing a crew's compliance with Restricted Speed. It's so named, because the testing officer places a banner across the track ahead of the approaching train. Our banners look like those folding barricades you find at highway construction zones.
I have seen NJ Transit commuter trains creep up on other trains at station stops, ready to move in as soon as the train ahead clears the platform. Not sure if I have ever seen an Amtrak train go beyond the red, but that does seem to be standard practice. I have also seen trains stopped dead at the red waiting for the block ahead to clear before moving into the station.
I work in freight territory. We never allow a freight train into the same block as a passenger train working a station platform.
Our rulebook also no longer includes the "Stop and Proceed" indication - requiring you to stop before passing a red permissive signal. Any permissive red signal may be passed at Restricted Speed with out stopping.
rjemery wrote:WSOR 3801,What does the MFJ in your signature represent?
Those are my initials.
In case anyone is interested for CROR territory, there are three types of signaling aspects that relate to this topic:
Here is the offical CROR link:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/railway/cror/signals.htm
So rule 429 is the absolute signal, rule 428 and 426 are permissive signals, with 426 used in cases where a 428 would cause issues or problems.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.