GP40-2 wrote:Wow, I make a few sarcastic posts on a dead in the water thread and it explodes into 4 pages. Hey CSXEngineer, you do realize I was just zinging you.To the rest of you holy-than-thou foamers: Get a life, and leave the real railroading to professionals like myself and CSXEngineer.Actually, don't get a life and just keep replying to my posts. I have at least 30 people looking at this site from CSX each day just for laughs at all your responses.Keep up the good work, you all make for great entertainment at CSX.
Wow, I make a few sarcastic posts on a dead in the water thread and it explodes into 4 pages.
Hey CSXEngineer, you do realize I was just zinging you.
To the rest of you holy-than-thou foamers: Get a life, and leave the real railroading to professionals like myself and CSXEngineer.
Actually, don't get a life and just keep replying to my posts. I have at least 30 people looking at this site from CSX each day just for laughs at all your responses.
Keep up the good work, you all make for great entertainment at CSX.
Do you realize this - everyone now knows you're full of BS. What a lame attempt at trying to make yourself look like a good guy.
You seem to have a bad case of little man syndrome. Maybe you only get the coffee for CSX management?
I've read a lot of things here that I disagree with as far as GPs & SDs & slipping are concerned. Too late in the morning to address them all now but take a look at Al Krug's web site. If this link doesn't help explain some of it, look at some of the other things he has and you will find most of your answers.
http://www.alkrug.vcn.com/rrfacts/hp_te.htm
.
I'm glad to hear that GP-40,may have blood running in those vains.But.I guess he doesn't care to share with us on his position at the CSX makes me wonder why
And if were such a hoot to laugh at by the "guys" you're referring to.Did you ever think they might be laughing at you too ?
The NS loco. power management crew came out with a do's and dont's list on how we should mix or not mix or loco's about two or three years ago.I'll have to try and dig it out.Pretty much the same thing as the CSX.
And my Dad said that the CSX was still putting the lower power units in the lead out of Russell Ky. when he retired in 2002 .
Collin ,operator of the " Eastern Kentucky & Ohio R.R."
GP40-2 wrote: Wow, I make a few sarcastic posts on a dead in the water thread and it explodes into 4 pages. Hey CSXEngineer, you do realize I was just zinging you.To the rest of you holy-than-thou foamers: Get a life, and leave the real railroading to professionals like myself and CSXEngineer.Actually, don't get a life and just keep replying to my posts. I have at least 30 people looking at this site from CSX each day just for laughs at all your responses.Keep up the good work, you all make for great entertainment at CSX.
And we laugh at you management types who attempt to railroad, and have not a clue. If you spent more time listening to those who do the work out here, perhaps things would move better.
Dang Margo, It took you this long to post a comeback????
Thirty people at CSX?...Nah...theres not that many people there that can stand you.
So really, what do you do for a living? You work at 7-11 don't you? Its OK to be honest...no one will laugh at you...much.
making threats is a hell of a way to "zing" someone as you so put it.. and now comes a "applogy".. after eveyone else on this foram came to my aid....
stay in your office.. if in fact you are in a managment posstion at all... and leave the real railroading the the CREWS..
i bid you good day for the final time.....from this point on..i will not respond to you no matter how much you might try to get a comment out of me... as far as im conserned..you are not here...
csx engineer
GP40-2 wrote:Leave the real railroading to professionals like myself and CSXEngineer. Actually, don't get a life and just keep replying to my posts. I have at least 30 people looking at this site from CSX each day just for laughs at all your responses.
You might be surprised at just how many real railroaders there are on this forum.... From around the world...
I may be a volunteer with a tourist operation, but the equipment we run is just as real (and can hurt us just as badly) as anything you use, and we have to abide by the same rules (or close - we use NORAC).
Really? Considering my employment started on the B&O when it was still an independent company--pre Chessie System and and pre CSX--I daresay I have worked in railroading longer than many of "these fellow railroaders" have been alive on this planet. If somebody wants to get into a pissing contest about job knowledge, bring it on. I won't be the one "slinking" away.
Holier than who?
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Move on GP-40 - this forum is way above you...
GP40-2 wrote: Hey CSXEngineer, you do realize I was just zinging you.
I don't believe that to be true. But then, the folks you work with know you better than we do. We can only gauge you by your conduct on this forum.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
I get quite a chuckle out of this too. Guess it shows what classy people CSX management are. Guess CSX doesnt have anything better to do than read railroad enthusiasts forums.
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
GP40-2 wrote: csxengineer98 wrote: let me take a stab at this one too...yes you can be oncall 24/7/365... the pay... ahahahahaha...it sucks for all the crap we have to put up with..but considering that you dont have to spend years and thounsands of dollors on a college degree to do the job.. the pay is about one of the best your going to find for just needing a highschool deplomayou learned learned learned .... thats the point of training..to learn eveything you can about train handleing..opporating rules..and how to use the terrain of the terriroty to your advantage. (work smart..not hard)the carrier will train you and put you through there engineers program at no cost to you...but you have to be working for that railroad to go to that railroads engineers programand no..i work for conrails southern xtention...more commonly known as CSX...csx engineer Appparantly we's hired you without you obtaing yours high scholl deploma first.
csxengineer98 wrote: let me take a stab at this one too...yes you can be oncall 24/7/365... the pay... ahahahahaha...it sucks for all the crap we have to put up with..but considering that you dont have to spend years and thounsands of dollors on a college degree to do the job.. the pay is about one of the best your going to find for just needing a highschool deplomayou learned learned learned .... thats the point of training..to learn eveything you can about train handleing..opporating rules..and how to use the terrain of the terriroty to your advantage. (work smart..not hard)the carrier will train you and put you through there engineers program at no cost to you...but you have to be working for that railroad to go to that railroads engineers programand no..i work for conrails southern xtention...more commonly known as CSX...csx engineer
let me take a stab at this one too...
yes you can be oncall 24/7/365...
the pay... ahahahahaha...it sucks for all the crap we have to put up with..but considering that you dont have to spend years and thounsands of dollors on a college degree to do the job.. the pay is about one of the best your going to find for just needing a highschool deploma
you learned learned learned .... thats the point of training..to learn eveything you can about train handleing..opporating rules..and how to use the terrain of the terriroty to your advantage. (work smart..not hard)
the carrier will train you and put you through there engineers program at no cost to you...but you have to be working for that railroad to go to that railroads engineers program
and no..i work for conrails southern xtention...more commonly known as CSX...
Appparantly we's hired you without you obtaing yours high scholl deploma first.
HEY KETTLE! YOUR BLACK!
(most people should understand this)
RE: lowest H.P. unit in lead
This mainly goes back to when there were mixed consists of F2's,F3's,GP-9's, etc. The lowest horsepower unit was the one with the "weaker" electrical system, in other words it would enter it's short time ratings at a higher speed than the higher horse units. The railroads wanted the engineer watching the ammeter on the weakest unit. I'll give an example below using 62/15 (65mph max) gearing, which was used by most roads. These figures are straight from EMD operating manuals dated: 11/46 1/49 1/54.
F3 F7 GP9
min cont speed: 14.5 12.0 none given by EMD
max amperage 700 825 " " " "
I'll change the gear ratio and throw an E7 into the mix. For the F3/7 gearing is 57/20 (95mph max) and 52/25 (117 mph max) for the E7.
F3 F7 E7
min cont speed: 20.5 17.0 40.0
max amperage: same same 625
Minimum continuous speed is the lowest speed at which the unit can operate without overloading the electrical equipment. Max amperage is what should be shown on the ammeter at min cont speed. I know the F3 and F7 are both 1500hp, their electrical ratings are different.
In todays railroading it really doesn't matter in theory, in practice it is still nice to have a lower horse unit in the lead as it usually doesn't slip as much and cleans off the rail a little so the big units behind can obtain better adhesion.
mackb4 wrote: My Dad mentioned this once.According to the C&O/CSX power management recommendations your suppose to place the lowest horsepower locomotive in the lead.Because most generally they will try to "outrun" the bigger,slower loading higher horsepower units. Now I have found this to be true on the line of road,because were always getting a mesh mash of locos. when getting run thru trains. Also it's better to have an EMD in front of a GE account of the way the two different locomotive brands load. You'll really notice this when you've been on a slow order,say 10-25 mph,then you start pulling back on the throttle to get back to track speed.If the EMD is in the rear ,and the GE in the front,the EMD will try to run all over the GE in the lead.
My Dad mentioned this once.According to the C&O/CSX power management recommendations your suppose to place the lowest horsepower locomotive in the lead.Because most generally they will try to "outrun" the bigger,slower loading higher horsepower units.
Now I have found this to be true on the line of road,because were always getting a mesh mash of locos. when getting run thru trains.
Also it's better to have an EMD in front of a GE account of the way the two different locomotive brands load.
You'll really notice this when you've been on a slow order,say 10-25 mph,then you start pulling back on the throttle to get back to track speed.If the EMD is in the rear ,and the GE in the front,the EMD will try to run all over the GE in the lead.
That's interesting. In my neck of the woods CSX never does this. On the coal drags out of Bostic yard they usually have two AC4400s or SD70macs followed by an SD40-2 or an SD50.
mackb4 wrote: Also it's better to have an EMD in front of a GE account of the way the two different locomotive brands load.
I would have to agree , also consider the EMD has tapered dynamics and the GE has the AAR standard flat dynamics.
mackb4 wrote: My Dad mentioned this once.According to the C&O/CSX power management recommendations your suppose to place the lowest horsepower locomotive in the lead.Because most generally they will try to "outrun" the bigger,slower loading higher horsepower units. Now I have found this to be true on the line of road,because were always getting a mesh mash of locos. when getting run thru trains. Also it's better to have an EMD in front of a GE account of the way the two different locomotive brands load. You'll really notice this when you've been on a slow order,say 10-25 mph,then you start pulling back on the throttle to get back to track speed.If the EMD is in the rear ,and the GE in the front,the EMD will try to run all over the GE in the lead. <>
<>
<>ill add my input on what my fav locos are...the GE-9ACs.....lots of power... will pull for ever... and a VERY STRONG dynmaic brake...the only problems i have with them is if they even SMELL RAIN..they slip like a mother... and once they get some miles on them they rattle like hell...the EMD offerings in the same HP classes..such as the 70macs... they are a better ride.. but the thing that i dont like about them is there weaker dynmaic brake.. and they way they have the electrical system set up for the AC power... if you lose a traction motor on a 70..you lose the whole truck... you cant cut out each motor like you use to be able to do on older units and the GEs... and the one thing that i cant stand with any of them is they are TOO COMPUTERIZED anymore.. one bug in the system and you have a 200 ton paper weigth.... they dont call them tech-no-toasters for nothing... \
zardoz wrote: tree68 wrote: Z - a minor correction: 3000 HP divided by 4 traction motors=750 HP each. 3000/6=500 HP per axle. The rest of the explanation is right on, though.My typing and grammar might be good, but my math sure sucks!!!
tree68 wrote: Z - a minor correction: 3000 HP divided by 4 traction motors=750 HP each. 3000/6=500 HP per axle. The rest of the explanation is right on, though.
Z - a minor correction: 3000 HP divided by 4 traction motors=750 HP each. 3000/6=500 HP per axle. The rest of the explanation is right on, though.
My typing and grammar might be good, but my math sure sucks!!!
Everything I've ever read has indicated that the GP-40's are/were a bit slippery. On the other hand, they have the horsepower to move a priority freight along at track speed - a popular application. Speed takes horsepower. Given the traction, gearing, etc, you could move a 100 car coal drag with a 3 HP Briggs and Stratton. But not very fast!
AntonioFP45 wrote: Engineers had to be "extra gentle" after stretching out and then taking off with heavy trains in MU lashups. Apparently these GEs developed so much torque when taking off with loads that their wheels would literally spin like a car burning rubber.
Engineers had to be "extra gentle" after stretching out and then taking off with heavy trains in MU lashups. Apparently these GEs developed so much torque when taking off with loads that their wheels would literally spin like a car burning rubber.
The GP units divided their horsepower between four traction motors, the SD between 6 traction motors. If we use the "40" series for our example, it would mean that each traction motor on a GP would have 1500hp to work with, whereas a SD would have only 1000hp. The best (but not very good) analogy I can come up with is a comparision to your vehicle if you are driving on wet or snowy roads. Give your accelerator too big a push, and your wheels spin.
Before the fancy wheel-slip controls on the new locomotives, we frequently had to use the independent brake to help control wheel-slip. I generally found that a 10-15 psi application was sufficient (with a light touch on the throttle) to keep the wheels from spinning too much. The light independent application also serves to clean and dry the wheels, which also increases traction. However, this method does not work, and should NOT be used on anything newer than the '50' series locomotives (if memory serves).
On the other hand, sometimes it was fun to try to get the #2 axle to slip intentionally just to see how fast we could get the spedometer to indicate (the older locomotives used a cable connected to the #2 axle for the speed reading). One time I had the spedometer showing 75mph as the train was moving all of about 3mph; unfortunately, the speed indication caused the overspeed relay to trip, causing a penalty brake application (I had a tough time explaining to the yardmonster yardmaster what happened). This practice is frowned upon by management because it is hard on the traction motors (especially if you hit a dry spot and the wheel suddenly grips the rail) and also really bad for the railhead.
Regarding the combining of SD and GP locomotives, the biggest difference is when the lead unit is a SD and some trailing units are GP. Your lead SD might be just barely holding the rail while your trailing GP might be slipping. Unless you notice the wheel-slip indicator flashing, you might not realize the rear unit(s) are slipping unless you feel them bucking.
Hey Antonio, Dittos to what Datafever said... nice concise post.
I just love SD40-2's, they are far and away my favorite locmotive.... My photo collection is replete with examples of them.... I often wondered about the sound they make, it's different from even the SD-70's (My other favorite) and the GE's like the Dash 9's and AC4400's. I love the deep thrum the SD's make when they are winding up, and also, the sound when they are at speed is different then the others too. Does anyone else know what I mean? I love standing trackside when a lash up of SD40's comes through. You can "feel" the locomotive as it goes by, the air itself seems to vibrate.
Thank you DataFever, but wow! That's definetly a good question I'm sure that the professional railroaders here can answer. All I know is that units in MU mode work together electrically and power is distributed in a manner enabling the units traction motors to respond simultaneously.
Interesting sidebar regarding wheel slippage:
A friend of mine recently shared with me of an interesting problem that one CSX's predecessors, Seaboard Coast Line, often encountered back in the 1970s. Their 4 axle GE U36Bs were rated at 3,600 horsepower. Engineers had to be "extra gentle" after stretching out and then taking off with heavy trains in MU lashups. Apparently these GEs developed so much torque when taking off with loads that their wheels would literally spin like a car burning rubber.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
AntonioFP45 wrote:Though horsepower was the same, the 6 axle units had 2 additional traction motors compared to the GP units. Very helpful for starting long, heavy trains. The GPs, from what I've read, were faster on the takeoff and were favored for use in runs where there were a lot of curves. Still, there are plenty of photos depicting GPs and SDs in the same lashup.
Though horsepower was the same, the 6 axle units had 2 additional traction motors compared to the GP units. Very helpful for starting long, heavy trains. The GPs, from what I've read, were faster on the takeoff and were favored for use in runs where there were a lot of curves. Still, there are plenty of photos depicting GPs and SDs in the same lashup.
I'll tell you what, AntonioFP, you did a great job of summarizing this. You laid out the historical perspective and everything is just at the level that I need in order to understand it. I get the feeling that if I keep reading this forum long enough, I might actually learn to appreciate the differences between locomotive types.
Now I have a question related to what you said. You talked about GPs and SDs running together. You also say that the GPs were faster on the takeoff. I don't know if that means starting from zero, or if it also applies to powering up after slowing down (say, for a curve).
The picture I get is that if the units are in the same consist, you throttle up, and the GPs want to take off before the SDs do. With a long, heavy train, the GPs in the consist may not be able to move the train all alone, but the SDs aren't ready to help out yet. The SDs are still thinking about it.
From a standstill, could that cause the GPs to "spin their wheels"?
And during mid-journey acceleration, say after a curve, how does that difference affect train handling?
Hi Mookie,
Others here have more info, but I'll try this in a nutshell:
EMD introduced the 3,000 horsepower, 16 cylinder 4 axle GP40 and 6 axle SD40 during the mid 1960s. This was the era of the famous "Horsepower Wars" primarily between EMD, ALCO, and GE. Because of the "hood" design, they were designated as road switchers by EMD, but most railroads that purchased these units used them for road service.
In 1972, EMD updated the electrical systems on their model lines which included the elimination of the DC generator, and replacing it with an A/C alternator (which is what our automobiles use to recharge the battery ). So the new units were designated as "Dash 2" or "2nd Generation" models.
BTW: Amtrak's F40phs were essentialy modified GP40-2s with streamlined carbodies. They proved to be Amtrak's most successful locomotives, logging millions of miles.
By far the SD40-2 proved to be the most popular U.S diesel with Class 1 freight railroads from the mid 1970s throughout the 80s. It was not unusual to see 4 or 5 unit lashups of these monsters hauling 65 mph manifests on the high iron. Though their ranks are thinning, they can still be seen running in mainline and secondary service. Some end their careers switching long batches of cars in hump yards. Interestingly, a number of SD40-2s and GP40-2s have been sold off to regional railroads where they continue in service today.
CSX, at least here on the Florida west coast, still uses GP40-2s in mainline and local jobs. I saw one recently that, to my surprise, was repainted into the darkblue scheme.
csxe - I am married to someone who misspells, types lousy and has a tendency to be a little bullheaded and I wouldn't trade him for all the world!
But this topic leads me to - the difference between a GP and an SD (the names imply about the same thing except for the wheel arrangement. (for the unitiated and to see if I have my facts correct - GP is general purpose and a 2 wheel axel and SD is special duty and a 3 wheel axel - am I correct or incorrect?)
I assume that the GP would be a little less power? The SD40 is what we see the most of and they may have been over the roads at one time while GP's were more yard engines? Someone want to enlighten me? (probably for the 4th or 5th time - so I have a memory problem! So get over it. I am bullheaded, too!)
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
wow...i never knew i had a fan club of this size... i want to thank you all for your suport and kinds words... i guess in a way this place is a brotherhood in some respects too... nice to know that my input is looked apon with good reviews...(dispite my poor spelling..and my bullheaded additued about not useing spell check..lol)
THANKS EVERYONE!!!!!!
AntonioFP45 wrote: I've enjoyed reading CSXEngineer's posts for the past two years. It's great that we have professional railroaders on this forum. The more the better. However, GP40-2, why the flaming torpedoes? Totally unnecessary, uncalled for, and does not contribute to the high quality of this forum. Your intentions may be honorable, but you seem to be coming off as a bit "arrogant and self-absorbed" especially since this involves a fellow professional. You seem to be thoughtful so hopefully you're not in this category.Relax. Your comment: "I have absolutely zero tolerance for sloppy employees...." brings something to mind.I've been fortunate to know a couple of CSX management employees. One very down to earth gentleman shared this with me in a conversation: Sadly, there are a few blue and white collar CSX employees in Florida that are inflexible, inconsiderate, hard nosed, and don't care whose life they make miserable. These few make it hard on everyone else trying to do their jobs, union and non-union. While they may move up the ladder, sooner or later they challenge the wrong manager or employees and in due time are eventually gone from the payroll. The cycle repeats itself. Interestingly these types of people are never missed by the employees or management. Being a sharp minded professional should always include "respect for others". Persons that don't understand this are seldom ever missed by others when they leave the job.
I've enjoyed reading CSXEngineer's posts for the past two years. It's great that we have professional railroaders on this forum. The more the better.
However, GP40-2, why the flaming torpedoes? Totally unnecessary, uncalled for, and does not contribute to the high quality of this forum. Your intentions may be honorable, but you seem to be coming off as a bit "arrogant and self-absorbed" especially since this involves a fellow professional. You seem to be thoughtful so hopefully you're not in this category.
Relax.
Your comment: "I have absolutely zero tolerance for sloppy employees...." brings something to mind.
I've been fortunate to know a couple of CSX management employees. One very down to earth gentleman shared this with me in a conversation:
Sadly, there are a few blue and white collar CSX employees in Florida that are inflexible, inconsiderate, hard nosed, and don't care whose life they make miserable. These few make it hard on everyone else trying to do their jobs, union and non-union. While they may move up the ladder, sooner or later they challenge the wrong manager or employees and in due time are eventually gone from the payroll. The cycle repeats itself.
Interestingly these types of people are never missed by the employees or management. Being a sharp minded professional should always include "respect for others". Persons that don't understand this are seldom ever missed by others when they leave the job.
WERD! I work for Sperry Rail Service, which by no means is a real railroad company, but none the less without us and our services trains flop over on a daily basis. One thing that rings true is the sqeaky wheel gets the grease. Take for instance with the gradual downfall of the SP in the late 60's and 70's that eventually led to it being taken over time and time again. Many college grads brought down in my opinion one of the best railroads, by ousting people that could do the job and replacing them with ones that had no idea how to run a railroad but none the less had a college degree. The focus shifted from running a good company that focused on employee's as well as the customer to one of driving stocks and profit sharing. Trains are driven and railroads operated by seat of your pants skills not by executive hooie. The SP lost out on many a great things because people with degrees had no sense of good customer relations, people skills, or good employee ethics. I feel that the every day railroader are some of the greatest people out there and they deserve respect and I applaud them for the services and work they do. Degree or not.
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