"Locals" 20 years from now?

[Anonymous]

I recently drove about 6 hours on the interstate, most of the time paralleling the BNSF mainline from Poertland to Seattle. It made me wonder, with all these 4000 HP wide cap behemoths wandering the mainline's today, what kind of power will be performing the switching and local duty 20 years from now. It's easy to go to any branch line and see a couple of faithful GP38's or GP40's running a light local service. Maybe it'll even be a SW1200. But we all know these things won't last forever, especially as they begin to cost more and more to operate.

So in 20 years will I be in an industrial area and see the (now old and retiring) C40-8 doing the switching? There is a short UP branch line a few blocks away from me that serves a shipping area in North Portland, usually the daily train is headed by a couple of tired SW's. What will happen years from now when the only old locos availible are some SD70 MAC's Let's face it, for a local job that involves some switching, and just about everything else you really can't beat a faithful old Geep. In addition, I assume most smaller local lines don't have the engineering or capacity to handle the immense size and weight of a Dash 9.

Are railroads going to soon demand remanufactur of 4 axle trucks in some lighter and more agile locomotives? Are they just going to have to deal with sending out a Dash 9 for switching? Will EMD and GE do anything to greatly preserve the life of still operating locomotives suitable for the task? I don't know much about railroad so this may be a stupid question, but I was just curious. Thanks.

[Anonymous]

Top o' the morning,
Interesting question. It seems to me that Trains magazine made mention a few months back about EMD building some new switchers for one of the RR's. As I recall, they said that it was the first light-switching power of this type built in maybe 10 or 15 yrs.

I just looked at the EMD (General Motors Electro Motive Divsion) website. EMD is one of the 2 big locomotive builders, along with GE as their main competitor. They do show 2 switchers in the current catalog. I have no idea how well they are selling though. Here's the link to their site.
http://www.gmemd.com/en/locomotive/switcher/index.htm

[edblysard]

Hi Airdrum and Dblstack,
The switcher you see in the EMD catalog is a MK1500D and the MK2000D, manufactored under agreement for EMD by Bosie Locomotive, (Morrison Knudson).
I work at the PTRA, one of the first switching railroad to use the MK1500D exclusivly.
Great motors for switching, engineers love being able to see so much out of them.
The old MK1500D had a catapiller diesel, the new ones, sold as GP15s and GP20s, have the EMD engine.

Class one are slowly getting away from running locals, or switching crews.
They perfer, and encourage short lines and switching railroad to do that part for them.
As time goes by, you will see a lot of short lines, regional and terminal/belt road buy rebuilt GP38s, the market is just right from someone to begin rebuilding them from the frame up, new electrical, so forth and so one.
But the big guys dont want the bother and hassel of doing local switching anymore, they are concentrating on the longer haul work, and leaving the short, local industrial switching to guys like us.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[dehusman]

Re-re-rebuilt GP15's, GP38's and GP40's.

[dekemd]

Down my way, CSX locals use whatever's handy in the yard be it SD40-2s, Dash 8, Dash 9s, or AC4400s. It looks kind of strange to see a AC4400 pulling a single covered hopper.

Derrick

[dharmon]

I know this will re-kindle the EMD vs. GE thread, but it is interesting to note that in the discussions of which is better, the common theme is that EMD units while more costly, seem to be rebuilt and continue on in helper and branchline service much more so than GEs. Just as the 38s and 40s do now, it seems logical that unless a "new" smaller unit is produced, like the GP15s, rebuilt or soon to be rebuilt/retired road units of today will be assuming the role. Kind of overkill for some branch lines but if it's all that's available, that will be it.

[Anonymous]

Didn't UP just buy some GP15's for use in switching in the Houston area? I think I remember seeing that somewhere... they would some of the first new switcher purchases by a Class 1 in since the late 80s wouldn't it?

[edblysard]

Didnt buy, but leased from CEFX about 20 units overall, half "GP15s, the other half "GP20s 1500 HP and 2000 HP units.
Nice units, they are both switchers, in the true sense of the word, and are also set up to be road units, with better traction than the older GP38s.
Stay Frosty
Ed

[Anonymous]

At sixty-six, twenty years from now, I wo'nt be giving a damn;

[eastcoast]

I forsee that in that time, these switchers now can be kept alive with maintainence as was so many steam locos for the tourist lines do.I feel that using a 4400 to switch is farfetched due to the GP model or GE switcher will take quite a while to phase out.

[Trainnut484]

I can picture seeing Dash 8s, in 20 years, in switcher service. Railroads aren't bashful about using any available old power that can do the job. On a couple of occasions, the Santa Fe used a B23-7 for switcher duty at the Emporia, Ks yard. The crew didn't like it because it didn't have the drawbar swing like that of the GP20s, GP7s, and GP9s, but it was available.

Take care[:)]

Russell

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Scottydog

At sixty-six, twenty years from now, I wo'nt be giving a damn;

Some of us are very close to that and we do!

Mookie

[wabash1]

In 20 years you wont see any dash 9 units switching. they dont last that long. the NS rr is rebuilding its gp38 engines they are cutting off the high short nose to resemble the gp 60 and are beefing them up adding air conditioning and renumbering them in the 5500 series as sd38. ( this is why you are not seeing many 2700 and 2800 series jeeps) it seems like they are going to keep these units around for many years to come

[phbrown]

Here in Spartanburg, SC, CSX already uses AC44's in switching and local work. In fact, it's rare to see a CSX unit around here that isn't a 4000+-HP six-axle GE, so they use them for everything.

NS has more variety. Usual local power is a SD40 or GP38. But I've seen SD70's on NS way freights, too. They run what they have on hand.

[tabeckett]

What 20 years from now?? Here in Binghamton NY, NS is using C40s for their local power on a regular basis, and has been as long as they've had this part of the former CR empire. They use C40s for everything, even work trains. I've seen them put a C40-or an SD 70, but they're not that common in local service here-on tracks that CR restricted to 4 axle units, daily. NS has done some trackwork to bolster the Vestal Spur-the former DL&W main to help keep the big units on the rails.

[AltonFan]

Actually, environmental regulations may force the railroads to invest in new locomotives for local and switching service. The "Green Goat" experiment is part of this development.

It was amusing to read in, IIRC, the May 2003 issue of Trains, a report announcing the end of the yard switcher, and then on the following Sunday, read in the Chicago Tribune that the environmental regulators are now looking at emissions from yard switch engines, and that sometime in the next twenty years, the railroads are going to have to replace older equipment with machines that emit less noxious fumes. And rebuilt geeps may not be up to this mission.

Moreover, as I see it, some of the latest road power does not lend itself to switching. I wonder if we are reaching in diesel technology the point that steam reached towards the end: the large road power was too big to be downgraded to secondary service, and the 2-8-4s, 4-8-2s, 4-8-4s, and the 2-10-4s went to the scrap line, while fifty-year old 2-8-0s and smaller 2-8-2s survived for another five years or so in secondary service.

[JoeUmp]

If the rebuild trend continues in the vein that it has in the past, I expect to see rebuilt GP50s and 60s doing most of the local work. It seems that the older GE units don't lend themselves to rebuilding as well. But I agree that railroads will use whatever is available, for instance CSX relies on a local shortline to switch the industries on the CSX line here.

[Anonymous]

The railroads have a lot of rebuild fodder out there. I think that 38's will be around for a long time, heck you can deturbo a 40 and make a good switcher. And with Boise and LTE and the like you have the know how if the railroads get out of the major rebuild business, and they seem to want to. The future is six axle power for the road and rebuild for everything else. I used to get wide cab on the locals and boy did you feel special with a $2.5 million dollar Dash-9 with one boxcar. Talk about cost savings:-)

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

Re-re-rebuilt GP15's, GP38's and GP40's.

I second the motion. Local power doesn't use enough fuel and you certainly can't reduce the number of units one a one locomotive local - so you'll never justify replacement with new power. As long as you can get past the EPA emissions laws, the GPs will be around forever (or until fuel cells become reality).

[mudchicken]

Whatever is out in the backtracks in 20 years will be:
(1) Light
(2) 4-Axle
(3) Relatively low HP (no need for speed, plenty of juice for traction motors)
(4) will have to watch adhesion (protect old rail & ties)
(5) Will have a potty & washstand on board (FRA Rule)
(6) Will not be allowed to idle when not in use
(7) will have more crew room
(8) will be quieter

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

Whatever is out in the backtracks in 20 years will be:
(1) Light
(2) 4-Axle
(3) Relatively low HP (no need for speed, plenty of juice for traction motors)
(4) will have to watch adhesion (protect old rail & ties)
(5) Will have a potty & washstand on board (FRA Rule)
(6) Will not be allowed to idle when not in use
(7) will have more crew room
(8) will be quieter

I think you just described a Trackmobile with a Gatorade bottle and baby wipes in it. [:)]

[Anonymous]

maybe worse than a trackmobile, it will be a modified semi-tractor that can move from switching location to switching location.

[edblysard]

You just described the MK1500D and the New GPs.
1: 254000 lbs
2: Blomberg B trucks.
3: 1500 to 2000 HP
4: Anti slip computer assisted traction, (standard )
5: Most do, ours(PTRA) dont.
6: Auto shut down, if no control surface is moved within 15 minutes.
Auto re start when air pressure and battery volts drop below safe levels.
7: Three seats, lots of windows, and A/C and a icebox, that works!
8: Meets or exceeds the FRA current sound level/ decibles in cab.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

Whatever is out in the backtracks in 20 years will be:
(1) Light
(2) 4-Axle
(3) Relatively low HP (no need for speed, plenty of juice for traction motors)
(4) will have to watch adhesion (protect old rail & ties)
(5) Will have a potty & washstand on board (FRA Rule)
(6) Will not be allowed to idle when not in use
(7) will have more crew room
(8) will be quieter

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

You just described the MK1500D and the New GPs.
1: 254000 lbs
2: Blomberg B trucks.
3: 1500 to 2000 HP
4: Anti slip computer assisted traction, (standard )
5: Most do, ours(PTRA) dont.
6: Auto shut down, if no control surface is moved within 15 minutes.
Auto re start when air pressure and battery volts drop below safe levels.
7: Three seats, lots of windows, and A/C and a icebox, that works!
8: Meets or exceeds the FRA current sound level/ decibles in cab.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

Whatever is out in the backtracks in 20 years will be:
(1) Light
(2) 4-Axle
(3) Relatively low HP (no need for speed, plenty of juice for traction motors)
(4) will have to watch adhesion (protect old rail & ties)
(5) Will have a potty & washstand on board (FRA Rule)
(6) Will not be allowed to idle when not in use
(7) will have more crew room
(8) will be quieter

Now if it comes with a CD player and a sunroof, I might be able to convince the wife to replace her suburban with one...[:D]

[mudchicken]

dharmon:

That's just fine guy.......Let those oversize behemoths in the backtracks at the current rate of maintenance $$$ for yard and backtracks (i.e. -none, all the $$$ wasted on new toy power and paint) and there won't be any backtracks or a railroad....Fuel savings and unit reduction are zilch when you can't get off the main track to deliver the goods!

Mudchicken

[edblysard]

Kinda back to my point that the class 1s dont want local switching any more, the cost in other than "road" power, along with the payroll and "other" cost isnt worth the bother to them.
They would perfer railroads like mine take care of the end delivery to the smaller, "local" shippers.
They dont mind dragging a 120 car grain train into the PTRA, but dont want to go the extra 20 miles to spot it at Cargill elevator.
They leave that to us.
We have 24, ohhps, make that 23 now, MK1500Ds, and with only that, we move 3000 plus cars a day into and out of two of our major yards, North Yard and Pasadena Yard.
Thats 3000 cars a day into and out of the Houston Ship Channel area, from Shell, Lubrizoil, Solvay, Phillips, DuPont, ARCO, the city docks and others, that the UP and BNSF dont want to mess with.
Six axel units cant go into most of the plants here, the radi of the curves is too tight, and the rail is too light.
Short of the grain trains and coke moves, 4 axels is it.
ANd by the way, our MK1500Ds use on average of 400 to 600 gallons of fuel per 24 hours.
Not to shabby!
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[TH&B]

I see lots of GP9s all over the place, mostly rebuilt CN and CP. Short lines use ex SOO GP9s with high hoods, some date from 1951! That could give us an idea.
Aren't the new GP15/20s on old GP9 frames and trucks?

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

dharmon:

That's just fine guy.......Let those oversize behemoths in the backtracks at the current rate of maintenance $$$ for yard and backtracks (i.e. -none, all the $$$ wasted on new toy power and paint) and there won't be any backtracks or a railroad....Fuel savings and unit reduction are zilch when you can't get off the main track to deliver the goods!

Mudchicken

I think I must not have made the point I was intending. Because I think I'm on your side. Unless a new breed of four axle units (similiar to Ed's MKs ...interesting pics by the way [:)].....or MP/GP15s or something) , the RRs have no choice but to continue to rebuild the power they have now to fill the purpose. Or as Ed brings up they get out of the local business all together and contract it out to shortlines....and maybe the short line of tommorrow won't even have loco's. What if it had a high rail/tug/track mobile unit that can parked on ashphault or in a garage. Drive over road to where I need it do some shifting and drive it back. I don't want to see this but, I don't think it's out of the realm.

Of all the new power I have seen, most is six axle and designed lessen the number of units required to achieve adequate horse power for the particular run. And why all the this...because the money is in heavy or fast commodities ..coal, chemicals, containers, UPS......from terminal to terminal. Joe Schmo's Baked Bean Plant's two boxcars a week isn't paying the stockholder. It's UPS, Houston Power and Light and Sealand. But as you bring up, the RRs are putting nothing into maint for back track and yards....that means its going into mainlines and power to support point to point, which leads right back to the above...the money is going to go where the greater return is. yards are overhead, mains make money.

So where are the numbers of 4 axle units, that need to be rolling of the production line in the next few years to pick up the slack????? I could be wrong, but I don't think they're there. So unless the class 1s form PTRAs in all major terminals and shift the burden and still continue in the local business, they are going to use whatever they have, be it six axle robo-locos or re-re-rebuilt GPs.

I believe that things go in circles....In the 60s the F4 became the front line fighter for the US. There was a belief that the gun was obsolete, and that the air to air missile had replace guns and dogfighting. So the F4 was built without a gun..all missiles. In Vietnam a very restrictive rules of engagement coupled with some fairly competent North Vietnamese pilots showed how wrong we were. All generations of fighters have since had guns. Four axles will be back in style. By the way I fight for infrastructure dollars everyday. Flashy new planes don't do any good if the hangar falls down on top of them.


Now if I misunderstood, and you were talking about my wife's Suburban you may be right. It been alot of dollars in new power that I rarely benfit from>[:D]

[Anonymous]

HERE IN UPSTATE NY WHEN I GET CALLED OFF THE BOARD FOR A LOCAL THEY THROW US TO THE WOLVES AND GIVE US ANYTHING THAT IS AROUND BASICALLY. THANK GOD FOR HAVING A COUPLE OF INDUSTRIES THAT HAVE RESTRICTED TRACK SO WE USUALLY HAVE AT LEAST TWO 4 AXLES AROUND. THERE HAVE BEEN TIMES I HAVE GOTTEN ON THE TRAVELING SWITCHER WITH 6 CARS AND AC44CW'S. KINDA FUNYY THE LOCALS AND SWITCHERS GET THE GOOD ROAD POWER AND THE ROAD JOBS GET THE OLD LEASED BEAT UP SIX PACKS.

[edblysard]

We had a transfer train come into North Yard today, 119 cars.
BNSF must have kept evey old motor Santa Fe had, because it was pulled by a GP30 leading, and trailing a GP7 with a Cleburn cab.
They were short on time, so we ran them straight into the yard instead of the receiving tracks.
When they cut away, the engineer put the boot to it, and those things flat took off!
If they had been racing a Dash 9, the old guys would have won hands down!
Still earning their keep after 30 plus years!
Ed