Hello Crew,
I remember as a kid in the late 60s-early 70s seeing plenty of freight runs on the 4 track mainline. Across the street from where I lived the New Haven's EF4s (Penn Central E33) cruised by regularly hauling long manifests.
There are plenty of photos of Penn Central and Conrail running long, heavy freights during the Amtrak era in the early 70s. However it seems that there's far less heavy freight action on the corridor tracks today. But even today there are hundreds of industries along the those tracks. I find it hard to believe that many of these industries don't ship by rail.
I know that when Amtrak took over the NEC, many freight runs were cut because Amtrak starting charging extraordinarily high rates to Conrail.
Anyone know how freight runs on the NEC today, how many trains, etc?
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
Antonio,
Conrail restructured everything around here to take trains off the NEC, and stop paying Amtrak's huge fees, not like Amtrak wanted the freights anyway. Lines through Allentown, PA and the old Lehigh Valley main into North Jersey became extremely busy afterwards. I believe the freights on the Corridor stayed where they needed to.. some yards and I think a few major cities like Baltimore needed to be accessed this way. I have seen large trains out side The yards here, usually on a side track next to the passenger mains. I remember reading that NS and CSX were going to re-establish some trains on the NEC, I believe mostly intermodal, but can't confirm how many run.
Generally any line that was sold to a commuter or passenger agency was a sign of the end for freight on that line. Except locals. This is certainly true of the old Erie Lackawanna lines through here.
There are very few freights that run on the NEC. Those that do run are run primarily to serve local industries. Speaking of which, there was hundreds of industries located on the NEC but many have either closed up or no longer ship by rail. A big lost in the NJ area was the closing of the Ford Plant in Linden which had it's own yard next to the NEC and one could watch auto-carriers and auto-parts box cars crusing under the wires between Linden and Newark.
There two recent articles in Railpace describing some of the local freight operations on various segments of the NEC. One talked about the local NS operations in the New Brunwick NJ area and another about the NS operations in the Wilmington DE area including a brief description about NS operations at the Newark Delaware Chrystler auto plant (which like the Linden Ford Plant has a small yard next to the NEC).
It seems NS avoids running on the NEC as much as possible and they only do it when they have no other choice.
Yes Virgina THERE ARE IRON HORSES under wire on the Northeast corridor-
1-NS Baltimore Orangeville yard to Perryville MD-Coal and junk trains to the "Port Road" to Harrisburg
2-NS Perryville to Newark to Ocean City and other points in DE.-Grain Trains to Tysons Chicken farms coal to Delmarva Pensula
3-CSX--Lefant plaza DC to Fredicksburg VA old RFP and Penn-central Bridge to Potomac
4-College Park MD-CSX track parrel to Amtrak highspeed line and metrorail
5-Connecticut-Providence and Worchester locals provide swithing serivice to industrys left along the NE corridor line along with stone trains to Long Isalnd
martin.knoepfel wrote:Didn't a drunken or cocaine-addict engineer cause a very bad collision, when his freight train ran through a red signal and collided head-on with an AMTRAK passenger-train? Several passengers killed, and other in hospital, IIRC. Did this kill freight-business on the NEC?
You can find the full story, including long posts by the Conrail engineer, on this topic:
http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/1/111801/ShowPost.aspx#111801
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
QUite a few NS/CSX freights run under the catenary in the Philadelphia area on both the former Reading (SEPTA) and PRR (NEC and other) lines.
Yes, and I recall hearing that he is posting on this forum from time to time...not sure of his "handle" nor do I recall his real name, but he may respond to your question if he is so inclined.
Guys,
Thanks for you responses! Good to know that there's still plenty of freight action between Washington and Boston.
Re: Electrics
It's a shame though that electric locomotives no longer haul freight. Would have been neat if Conrail had purchased a few of Amtrak's E60CPs and regeared them to haul freight on the NEC. They definetly put out the horsepowr and tractive effort. Plus they were "environmentally" cleaner. I can imagine though that with Amtrak's high charges it would not have been practical for Conrail to own and run electrics.
Anyone know what ever happened to those funny looking GM #1 whtie electrics that were being tested on the corridor back then?
Very interesting...the BIG post thread about this fellow (latest post was this morning) has been deleted by the moderators of this forum...I can't help but wonder why.
Re: Trainwreck
The man involved in the wreck with the Amtrak Colonial back in the late 1980s was Conrail engineer Ricky Gates. There was an excellent READERS DIGEST article a few years back covering the wrecik. Title: COLLIISON AT GUNPOW.
Long story short (I hope I have it right): Basically Ricky was assigned to move a batch of locomotives (light engine move). Reported to work still high off of weed. He proceeded with his assignment and made his move. Sometime during the move he saw a stop signal, ran past it then stopped not realizing that the last locomotive of his lashup was still blocking the track that the 100 mph Colonial was approaching on. The Colonial smashed into the Conrail unit and instantly became a horrifying part of history. I remember when it happened. Shocking beyond belief. Amazing how much death and destruction was caused by one man smoking a joint.
Sometime after this wreck the government became involved and many transportation companies adopted strict drug testing policies, some which were controversial. I worked for a transit authority at the time and random drug testing became the norm. Personally I thought it was a good thing, but quite a few of our employees were upset by it as they often cited "invasion of privacy". I was for it because I felt that if your job involved moving people or repairing the vehicles that moved them, then it was very SELFISH for any transportation professional to smoke weed or injest other illegal drugs.
eolafan wrote:Very interesting...the BIG post thread about this fellow (latest post was this morning) has been deleted by the moderators of this forum...I can't help but wonder why.
Deleted? What's been deleted? Not the thread, as I just accessed it.
Perhaps you have the same problem that I have. If the original poster is listed as "anonymous", then I can't just click on the thread name to access the thread. But I can click on the "arrow pointing to document" icon under the "latest post" column to access the thread with no problems.
Datafever wrote: eolafan wrote: Very interesting...the BIG post thread about this fellow (latest post was this morning) has been deleted by the moderators of this forum...I can't help but wonder why.Deleted? What's been deleted? Not the thread, as I just accessed it.Perhaps you have the same problem that I have. If the original poster is listed as "anonymous", then I can't just click on the thread name to access the thread. But I can click on the "arrow pointing to document" icon under the "latest post" column to access the thread with no problems.
eolafan wrote: Very interesting...the BIG post thread about this fellow (latest post was this morning) has been deleted by the moderators of this forum...I can't help but wonder why.
Yep, that worked for me but take notice of the fact that the last post you can see is dated back on November 27 and it shows the latest posting to be some time today, even though no post after November 27 seems to appear???????
eolafan wrote: Datafever wrote: eolafan wrote: Very interesting...the BIG post thread about this fellow (latest post was this morning) has been deleted by the moderators of this forum...I can't help but wonder why.Deleted? What's been deleted? Not the thread, as I just accessed it.Perhaps you have the same problem that I have. If the original poster is listed as "anonymous", then I can't just click on the thread name to access the thread. But I can click on the "arrow pointing to document" icon under the "latest post" column to access the thread with no problems. Yep, that worked for me but take notice of the fact that the last post you can see is dated back on November 27 and it shows the latest posting to be some time today, even though no post after November 27 seems to appear???????
You can get the whole thing, including the last post if you go through the link I posted. As an aside, the last post is quite off track, but will explain many things.
Needless to say, the topic produced great contorversy among the forum members. I put it back up, because I thought newer members might be interested in Rick Gates' own comments. I don't cast myself as any kind of moral crusader, but for some the story may produce some thinking about behavior that may put the health and lives of others at risk.
I can't help you out there. I don't see any posts from November. There are two posts from today, both by Iron Nipple, neither one worth reading.
jeaton wrote: eolafan wrote: Datafever wrote: eolafan wrote: Very interesting...the BIG post thread about this fellow (latest post was this morning) has been deleted by the moderators of this forum...I can't help but wonder why.Deleted? What's been deleted? Not the thread, as I just accessed it.Perhaps you have the same problem that I have. If the original poster is listed as "anonymous", then I can't just click on the thread name to access the thread. But I can click on the "arrow pointing to document" icon under the "latest post" column to access the thread with no problems. Yep, that worked for me but take notice of the fact that the last post you can see is dated back on November 27 and it shows the latest posting to be some time today, even though no post after November 27 seems to appear???????You can get the whole thing, including the last post if you go through the link I posted. As an aside, the last post is quite off track, but will explain many things.Needless to say, the topic produced great contorversy among the forum members. I put it back up, because I thought newer members might be interested in Rick Gates' own comments. I don't cast myself as any kind of moral crusader, but for some the story may produce some thinking about behavior that may put the health and lives of others at risk.
I should say "the last post on the topic will explain many things about the poster"
jeaton wrote:I should say "the last post on the topic will explain many things about the poster"
Ahhh... Thank you for that clarification.
trainfan1221 wrote: Antonio, Conrail restructured everything around here to take trains off the NEC, and stop paying Amtrak's huge fees, not like Amtrak wanted the freights anyway. Lines through Allentown, PA and the old Lehigh Valley main into North Jersey became extremely busy afterwards. I believe the freights on the Corridor stayed where they needed to.. some yards and I think a few major cities like Baltimore needed to be accessed this way. I have seen large trains out side The yards here, usually on a side track next to the passenger mains. I remember reading that NS and CSX were going to re-establish some trains on the NEC, I believe mostly intermodal, but can't confirm how many run. Generally any line that was sold to a commuter or passenger agency was a sign of the end for freight on that line. Except locals. This is certainly true of the old Erie Lackawanna lines through here.
I think this is pretty much the story on through freight operation on the NEC. There are two general combatibility problems with high speed passenger service and freight trains. Although there are early morning hours with a window when passenger trains are idle, a late running freight train could really mess with the passenger on time performance and obviously, that is the business killer for a passenger service. And then there is the matter of impact that heavy freight trains will have on the required tight track tolerances for high speed passenger trains.
Datafever wrote: jeaton wrote: I should say "the last post on the topic will explain many things about the poster"Ahhh... Thank you for that clarification.
jeaton wrote: I should say "the last post on the topic will explain many things about the poster"
Keep in mind, that this guy is also the re-occuring troll that keeps getting kicked out of here. His last screen name was buyCSXstock(?)....trainfinder....clevelandstation.....kissemecaboose.....Peterson1234.....etc.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Siding wrote: Datafever wrote: jeaton wrote: I should say "the last post on the topic will explain many things about the poster"Ahhh... Thank you for that clarification. Keep in mind, that this guy is also the re-occuring troll that keeps getting kicked out of here. His last screen name was buyCSXstock(?)....trainfinder....clevelandstation.....kissemecaboose.....Peterson1234.....etc.
Ah ha! Now the fog begins to clear, this guy Iron Nipple is the troll who used to be under those different "handles"? Well, now I know why his recent posts have been so annoying. Thanks for the clarification.
jeaton wrote: I think this is pretty much the story on through freight operation on the NEC. There are two general combatibility problems with high speed passenger service and freight trains. Although there are early morning hours with a window when passenger trains are idle, a late running freight train could really mess with the passenger on time performance and obviously, that is the business killer for a passenger service. And then there is the matter of impact that heavy freight trains will have on the required tight track tolerances for high speed passenger trains.
I understand your point but don't you find it interesting that the Pennsylvania Railroad and New Haven had much higher freight and passenger traffic levels back in the 50s and 60s than today, yet somehow most passenger trains seemed to maintain their schedules?
AntonioFP45 wrote: jeaton wrote: I think this is pretty much the story on through freight operation on the NEC. There are two general combatibility problems with high speed passenger service and freight trains. Although there are early morning hours with a window when passenger trains are idle, a late running freight train could really mess with the passenger on time performance and obviously, that is the business killer for a passenger service. And then there is the matter of impact that heavy freight trains will have on the required tight track tolerances for high speed passenger trains.I understand your point but don't you find it interesting that the Pennsylvania Railroad and New Haven had much higher freight and passenger traffic levels back in the 50s and 60s than today, yet somehow most passenger trains seemed to maintain their schedules?
You may have a point. I don't have any of the RR Guides or timetables of the late PRR era so I am in no position to argue. However, if you add in the commuter traffic of today, is there still less traffic than the older times? I recall a Trains article about the job of making the schedules for the NEC and got the impression that it is pretty tight.
Other than that, there have been other changes. Making a comparison between then and now might be like trying to guess who would win a game between a sports team of a "classic" era and a present day team.
Am I to infer from this that you think the PRR and New Haven ran smarter operations? If so, how are you zeroing out profound differences between then and now such as an immense shrinkage in employees, the elimination of regulated rates, and longer and much heavier freight trains?
S. Hadid
Very interesting point, 1435.
I'm looking at this overall as a lifelong railfan/model railroader wanting to learn. You and Jeaton have brought to light some very important and interesting factors.
Smarter operations back then? No, because as pointed out railroad operations were very different from today. So much has changed indeed and I didn't consider the smaller workforce, deregulation, and the massive commuter operations that exist today.
I suspect your are buying into an urban legend. Traffic levels (number of trains) are higher now, not "much lower". There are more passenger trains on the NEC from NY to Wash now than ever. The loss of a handful of LD trains plus a handful of thru-freights is small compared to the additional passenger traffic. And, the loss of frieght traffic isn't as complete as it might seem. The number of freight trains operating down the Port Road for operation over Amtrak isn't much lower than it was in the early 1960s under PRR - they just all move at night now.
Outside of the NEC, the traffic levels (number of trains) are lower, but the dedicated passenger tracks are long gone, too. The PRR and NYC each had a pair of "passenger" tracks between NY and Chicago that were ripped up 30 years or more ago. And, that's why passenger trains have trouble keeping to schedule.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
I agree that there are more passenger trains running on the NEC than during the PRR & NH days. And they are more "standardized" so to speak meaning that trains will hourly at specific times (i.e. every hour on the hour). The trains are also running faster than before which probably means you need to have more space between trains in order to maintain a safe stopping distance.
In terms of maintaining a schedule, Amtrak trains have trouble making up time partially because the engineers are not allowed to go above the speed limit. You read all the time in Trains' Railroad Readings Section about how engineers would make up time by excessively speeding. Now a days with computers and GPS, not only can the locomotive shut itself down if he speeds, but some central office will be instantaniously be notified if he violates the speed limit. There are definitely places around the Amtrak system (not just in the NEC) in which i think it is possible to go a little bit faster than the posted speed limited, but the engineers don't have that freedom anymore.
oltmannd wrote: Outside of the NEC, the traffic levels (number of trains) are lower, but the dedicated passenger tracks are long gone, too. The PRR and NYC each had a pair of "passenger" tracks between NY and Chicago that were ripped up 30 years or more ago.
Outside of the NEC, the traffic levels (number of trains) are lower, but the dedicated passenger tracks are long gone, too. The PRR and NYC each had a pair of "passenger" tracks between NY and Chicago that were ripped up 30 years or more ago.
Can you expand a little on this please?
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