Three step

[Anonymous]

I hear ya, Wabash1 and agree that all the micromanaging on the radio has resulted in too much chatter.  Whenever I can, I use hand signals....they'll never pick and nag at you for not saying "over" or "out" or "in-between" if you stay off the chatterbox  And what the heck happened to the rule about when the guy giving the hand signs disappears from view, the engr STOPS the train and doesn't move again until the guy's back in view GIVING him a signal?  Dumbing down America, one step at a time....

[csxengineer98]

The only cars that I ever saw where you couldn't tell if the pin was down were a type of bulkhead flat that had this odd cut lever/cable arrangment. I haven't seen them in years and don't know if they are still out there. If I remember correctly they also had the dadblame anglecock centered under the drawhead. I don't know what genius thought that one up!

i have done switching in the yard as well as doubling trains up to where the pin lookes like it fell..only to have the cut come back apart and have to walk back and make the tie agin.. streching dosnt take that much time compaired to haveing to walk back X number of cars to make the tie agin.... so as a rule being in train service for the past 3 years...i ALWAYS strech my ties... engineer be damned.. and even when i was in the seat running..i didnt mind if a conductor or switchman wanted me to strech the train..

csx engineer 

[zapp]

I remember some center beam cars like that. I also remember some Conrail 89 footer's having the same set-up.

They also had very small angle cocks! I didn't even try not to big hole the train. Those things were such a pain I would just turn it and plug the train!

[BigJim]

The only cars that I ever saw where you couldn't tell if the pin was down were a type of bulkhead flat that had this odd cut lever/cable arrangment. I haven't seen them in years and don't know if they are still out there. If I remember correctly they also had the dadblame anglecock centered under the drawhead. I don't know what genius thought that one up!

[zapp]

See this is the first thing wrong with you new guys you think we are working with egg shells so lets couple them up softly so we haft to wiggle the handle to try and get the pin to fall. wasting time again , then you cant tell so we strech em again. again I say lets couple these things up and get the job done i couple all cars at 3-6 mph i dont care about slack action the only time i couple soft is when we are at the end of track or other damage could be done from slack moving. and as far auto racks go the cushion drawbars make it easy on the head end anyways. 

You should change your screen name to Katy!

[wabash1]

See this is the first thing wrong with you new guys you think we are working with egg shells so lets couple them up softly so we haft to wiggle the handle to try and get the pin to fall. wasting time again , then you cant tell so we strech em again. again I say lets couple these things up and get the job done i couple all cars at 3-6 mph i dont care about slack action the only time i couple soft is when we are at the end of track or other damage could be done from slack moving. and as far auto racks go the cushion drawbars make it easy on the head end anyways. 

[wabash1]

240 a day so whats the point ?   as a conductor or an  engineer its not hard to tell if the pin is down. i stand with my original statement. I can bet ed doesnt ask for a stretch.  this is the fasted way of taking a 5 hour job and making it 9 hours long.

[BigJim]

  Limitedclear is correct.

 It's another rule from Conrail that the NS has adopted.

 To be honest,it's a useless rule.Ever since I hired on the railroad when a conductor or brakeman didn't say anything you STOP .Simply as that.You never moved until you was told to.That's why theres rules for when theres a loss of communication.

 I also think the c-102 rule is not feasible.If you tie 2 or 20 brakes on a cut of cars,if the air doesn't hold when you cut away,then you have no business in cutting away where you did.

 I'm not against every rule,most are good rules to have.

 But alot of these new rules the railroads or FRA have adapted have taken away from doing your job in a timely manner.And haven't helped anything.It's put alot of unnecassary talk on the radio when crews are trying to switch.And made alot of crews mad when you can't do your work because of all the chatter.

 Sorry for getting off the subject alittle,but I had to get it off my chest  !

I wholeheartedly agree!

As a matter of fact, anyone that knows their air brakes knows that the apply air brake part is for the most part is totally useless! If you have to ask for an explanation you don't know your air or you don't work as an operating employee or you are an Official.

This is another rule that seems like a great idea on the surface, when actually a "That will do" or "Waving down" sufficed.

[tree68]

Officially, there is no hand signal for 3-Step.  Every rule I've seen requires it to a verbal exchange.  Furthermore, CSX states it must be given over the radio.

However, one commonly used signal is arm outstretched, thumb and index figure forming an O, with the remaining fingers held up.  Think an OK sign.

Nick

We use the three fingers in the air to call for 3 step, then turn the same down to remove it.  Oftimes the trainman will use both hands, pushing the hand signal down with the "back" hand.

In either case, the engineer replies with the same signal to confirm.

 As for stretching - we do runarounds on virtually every trip, and on the out leg, it's with a train full of passengers.  If the trainman isn't fully confident the pins have dropped (and remember, on pax equipment, they 'drop' up), a stretch helps ensure that things are right.  It's more or less discouraged, but not banned by any stretch of the imagination...  The couple of seconds it takes is worth preventing the hassle if the train pulls apart...

[WSOR 3801]

I believe the rules state that EVERY joint must be streched, to make sure it is good.  Some cars just don't want to work right.  Sometimes you need to strech out the cushion drawbars to physically get in there to make the air, especially with a motor with a plow.  Two plows together can get real tight.

CN on the Waukesha Sub says "Set and Centered (engine number or job number)" a lot.

The FRA wants enigine number or job symbol on every transmission.  On our small property we pretty much know most voices on the radio, and there isn't much name duplication.  Not too many guys using Bert or Gomer.

The going in hand signal I use looks we the old ZZ Top music videos.  Big round swing and point in towards the hoses.  Engineer might wave, or flash the headlight to acknowledge.  Requires a job briefing so that engr and cndr know what signs are used.

[route_rock]

  Fine instead of saying stretch em I will just let you bash into them at 4 so when you do stop and all the slack runs out then I dont have to waste your precious time with something that is simple to do to make sure the pin HAS dropped. Oh and just for your info we have guys out here that have been here since Q days who still say stretch em. Waste of time? I think not.

  We have hand signals for goin between on BNSF day time you hold one hand pointing to the train the other to the sky. Night its a lantern signal  going horizontal about waist height side to side.Engineer response for both is one blast on the whistle. Radio is simple I always say Going between on the _________(pick a train) if I have a brakie I say Conductor is going between and always have the brakeman call for his own and clear his own. When clearing I always call teh brakeman and ask if hes clear and if not I just tell him to contact me or the engineer.

[edblysard]

Now thats funny, Attica...

Guess I have been lucky in that respect.

Then again, on such  small property, everyone knows everyone else on a first name basis.

All of our engineer came from the switchmans roster, so regardless of the FRA insistance otherwise, we do reconize each others voices on the radio.

 

[Limitedclear]

Ed -

Every once in a while you run across a bad apple. We had one young engineer who had some real organic problems. Used to threaten his conductors regularly. Most of us wouldn't work with him at all for obvious reasons. Then one night he had it out with his girlfriend in a bar parking lot. Ran her over with his pickup. We blow a little extra for him when we pass his new digs, Attica State Prison...

LC  

 

[traisessive1]

CP Rail's 3 point protection is this ... Independant applied, reverser centered and govenor field switch off.

 And as for stretching, its a safety thing. Some cars are hard to tell. And some cars are just plain crap and pins fall and joints dont make. Switching the yard the other day, I had a pin pull itself just by being bumped by the slack.

 So don't say stretching is useless.

[jeaton]

This from Ed is the deal: "In fact, by rule, the engineer may not move the train at all on his own, except in an emergency situation, with out a clear command from the employee in charge of the movement."

I had my limited experience as a brakeman before radios.  You can bet the engineer was not moving until he was sure everybody was in the clear.  I wasn't using them, but I was around the business when radios came into use.  There is no doubt that there were times when an engineer assumed he had an order to move when in fact the order was for an engineer on another crew.

To me it doesn't make any difference-hand signals, radio, yells, or if you can, mental telepathy-the object is clear communication.

[edblysard]

With three yard jobs using the same radio channel, at the same time, it gets pretty hectic trying to get air time, so we use hand signals when ever possible.

And we cheat on the way we ask for three step protection, or red zone.

FRA says you have to verbally ask for three step, there is no official hand signal for requesting it, or showing clear.

Now, with the number of times we have to go between the cars, you can imagine how much radio chatter there can be.

Down here, when we have visual contact with the engineer, we stick one arm straight up, and extend the other towards the cars, in an L shape.

The engineer will acknowledge with the old "cutting in the air" sign, arm outstretched, fist with a thumb stuck out (hitch hikers sign) and then turn the fist, as if he is turning a anglecock, or with a horn toot/bell ring.

We go in, do what we have to, get clear, and hold both arms up, like a calf roper does when he is finished tying off a calf, to show we are "clear".

 

It makes no sense to me to clutter up the radio when I am looking directly at my engineer, eye to eye.

Engineers are former switchmen, so they know what we are doing in there, and why, have experienced the same problems we do, and understand why we try to keep off the radio when we can.

 

The reasoning why we have three step or red zone protection makes a great deal of sense, the reasoning behind having to verbally request it doesn't.

When I pointed out to the FRA inspector that they, the FRA, accept the fact that I can safely use a hand signal to kick loaded LPG tank cars all day long, or stop a moving train, but some how I can't use a hand signal to hold movement while I knock off a hand brake or lace up a air hose resulted in the normal bureaucratic blank look.

Both are dangerous things to do, kicking cars, and being in between cars, yet it is allowable to set a loaded bomb in motion with hand signals, not allowable ask the engineer to sit still and not move with the same system.

 

The FRA's position is that if I use a hand signal to go into the red zone, and a few minutes later, my engineer sees someone who resembles me walking around, he, (the engineer) might move the train, thinking I am in the clear when in fact, I am not.

I pointed out that if my engineer moves the train with out a clear, precise command from me informing him I am clear, be it with a hand signal or a radio command, he is a fired SOB.

In fact, by rule, the engineer may not move the train at all on his own, except in an emergency situation, with out a clear command from the employee in charge of the movement.

In the 10 years I have been switching, I have yet to work with any engineer who isn't terrified of running over a member of his crew, and doesn't go to great lengths to make sure everyone is clear before he takes a signal to move, nor have I had any engineer move a train without a clear command to do so.

Those that can, do.

Those that can't, teach.

Those that can't do or teach work for the government.

[Datafever]

And how do you signal three step clear?

[csxengineer98]

Officially, there is no hand signal for 3-Step.  Every rule I've seen requires it to a verbal exchange.  Furthermore, CSX states it must be given over the radio.

However, one commonly used signal is arm outstretched, thumb and index figure forming an O, with the remaining fingers held up.  Think an OK sign.

Nick

i personaly use an outstreched arm with 3 fingers held up... signaling 3step.. and the engineer i have been working with reguerly for the past year or so will do the same to show me that it is applyed... but dont tell csx that..lol

csx engineer 

[Limitedclear]

 The first step is to (as applicable) set the train brakes, then the independent (locomotive) brakes. Then comes the second step, the engineer will put the throttle in idle and third, the selector is put in the neutral position. That will then render the locomotive stationary (at least in theory). The engineer will not release the selector, move the throttle into run 1 or release the independent until he/she is told by the employee that made the request to him/her that this employee is in the clear. Failing to do so will result in disciplinary action for the first "offense". Subsequent slip-ups will be dealt with according to the agreements with the BLE or UTU as applicable.

Nice try, but incorrect. Conrail started this Rule and it was contained in Conrail Safety Rule 1710(e)

STEP 1 : Apply the Train (Automatic and Independent) Brakes.

STEP 2 : Place Reverser in neutral position.

STEP 3 : Open the Generator Field Switch. 

The Engineer must maintain this protection until notified by the employee who requested it that the protection is no longer required.

LC

LC

Laughin' at you, not with you...

BTW, disciplinary action is only conducted in accordance with the collective bargaining agreements which is another way in which your little scenario is wrong.

Having been on the ground and run an engine for Conrail and NS, I have used three step many, many times and I am very familiar with the correct and incorrect use of the rule. Whether I agree with it under all circumstances or not it is a rule and will be followed correctly. Done your incorrect way someone could be seriously injured or killed. I don't find any humor in it. After an injury or fatality it is too late to say you're sorry. 

I have revised my opinion of your knowledge in a sharply downward direction...

LC 

[zapp]

 the most useless talk on the railroad .... stretch em. a waste of time and a waste of radio . if after 3months of being on the railroad if you cant tell if a pin has fallen and you haft to stretch . then you dont need to waste peoples time and work on the railroad quit and let them hire someone that can do the job. 

Don't work with alot of autoracks, do ya?

[PBenham]

 The first step is to (as applicable) set the train brakes, then the independent (locomotive) brakes. Then comes the second step, the engineer will put the throttle in idle and third, the selector is put in the neutral position. That will then render the locomotive stationary (at least in theory). The engineer will not release the selector, move the throttle into run 1 or release the independent until he/she is told by the employee that made the request to him/her that this employee is in the clear. Failing to do so will result in disciplinary action for the first "offense". Subsequent slip-ups will be dealt with according to the agreements with the BLE or UTU as applicable.

Nice try, but incorrect. Conrail started this Rule and it was contained in Conrail Safety Rule 1710(e)

STEP 1 : Apply the Train (Automatic and Independent) Brakes.

STEP 2 : Place Reverser in neutral position.

STEP 3 : Open the Generator Field Switch. 

The Engineer must maintain this protection until notified by the employee who requested it that the protection is no longer required.

LC

LC

[Limitedclear]

 The first step is to (as applicable) set the train brakes, then the independent (locomotive) brakes. Then comes the second step, the engineer will put the throttle in idle and third, the selector is put in the neutral position. That will then render the locomotive stationary (at least in theory). The engineer will not release the selector, move the throttle into run 1 or release the independent until he/she is told by the employee that made the request to him/her that this employee is in the clear. Failing to do so will result in disciplinary action for the first "offense". Subsequent slip-ups will be dealt with according to the agreements with the BLE or UTU as applicable.

Nice try, but incorrect. Conrail started this Rule and it was contained in Conrail Safety Rule 1710(e)

STEP 1 : Apply the Train (Automatic and Independent) Brakes.

STEP 2 : Place Reverser in neutral position.

STEP 3 : Open the Generator Field Switch. 

The Engineer must maintain this protection until notified by the employee who requested it that the protection is no longer required.

LC

LC

[wabash1]

 the most useless talk on the railroad .... stretch em. a waste of time and a waste of radio . if after 3months of being on the railroad if you cant tell if a pin has fallen and you haft to stretch . then you dont need to waste peoples time and work on the railroad quit and let them hire someone that can do the job. 

[PBenham]

 The first step is to (as applicable) set the train brakes, then the independent (locomotive) brakes. Then comes the second step, the engineer will put the throttle in idle and third, the selector is put in the neutral position. That will then render the locomotive stationary (at least in theory). The engineer will not release the selector, move the throttle into run 1 or release the independent until he/she is told by the employee that made the request to him/her that this employee is in the clear. Failing to do so will result in disciplinary action for the first "offense". Subsequent slip-ups will be dealt with according to the agreements with the BLE or UTU as applicable.

Nice try, but incorrect. Conrail started this Rule and it was contained in Conrail Safety Rule 1710(e)

STEP 1 : Apply the Train (Automatic and Independent) Brakes.

STEP 2 : Place Reverser in neutral position.

STEP 3 : Open the Generator Field Switch. 

The Engineer must maintain this protection until notified by the employee who requested it that the protection is no longer required.

LC

[coborn35]

So what is the hand signal for "3 step"?

You point in between the cars. Then when the engineer does the same, it means 3 Point Protection has been observed.

[enr2099]

... and CN has nothing. You say that'll do/stop and say im going in.

 

Yep. "That'll Do. Stretch. That'll Do. Cutting in the Air".

[traisessive1]

... and CN has nothing. You say that'll do/stop and say im going in.

[nbrodar]

Officially, there is no hand signal for 3-Step.  Every rule I've seen requires it to a verbal exchange.  Furthermore, CSX states it must be given over the radio.

However, one commonly used signal is arm outstretched, thumb and index figure forming an O, with the remaining fingers held up.  Think an OK sign.

Nick

[TH&B]

So what is the hand signal for "3 step"?