Safety vs. Timetable?

[mistercivil]

I'm a railway conductor student in Calgary. Yesterday (Tuesday the 7th), me and some buddies were out back of the school, going through an old CP caboose we use for training. CP does some switching on the other side of the fence out back. Anyway, the switcher was dropping off a boxcar on a siding for a printing company. I noticed the conductor hop off the head end of the movement and, while the train was no more than 25 feet away and approaching (albeit slowly), removed the derail. Is this normal? Or is this normal for lazy employees? From where the conductor was positioned, the engineer, at the opposite end of the train, had no way of seeing him. I know an engineer is to stop a movement within half the distance communicated if no further instructions are recieved, but if that was me, I'd want to make sure that train was stopped before I stepped in front of it. What gives? Am I being overly conscientious?

[Jackflash]

No you're not, doing something is like that is dangrous, and stupid !
jackflash

[wabash1]

Not sure if you are stating things correctly or not. You say that the conductor dropped off the head end of the movement. ( the head end is usually the engine) and a siding is a place where you get in the clear to meet trains. but for the perpose of this we will leave that alone. The picture i have is a train comming up to a switch pulling and the conductor drops off to get the derail and then when the movement is by the switch he throws it to line into the industry . now if this was a shove move with him riding back to the derail and jumps off to get the derail this its self is not a problem either. depending on the type of derail it is if it is switch point derail the only problem is if they hang up if it is a sliding type ( wear you put it on like throwing a switch) no problem either. now a floppy i wouldnt try this as you must get in harms way.

the other thing here is that new guys just learning dont have the car distance down and sometimes it seems closer than it is. the ony other thing is if it is one car it will stop real quick and if the engineer is on the same side as the conductor even if several cars away a hand signal to stop is much faster than a radio message.. while it is true that there can be a danger to this move and be wrong. if you work with the same guy you can be sure each other knew what the other was doing. ive stopped my movement because the conductor didnt make the same moves as he normally would and then when he stated lets bring them back 5 cars to a spot things was back to normal. you dont try this if the guy is not your regular conductor or engineer. team work in railroading is knowing what the other is doing.. if i was eds engineer for over a year and he my conductor he would know when i wanted hand signals i would know when he would go to hand signals. the radio traffic is less I know where to be looking for him. He would know when the engine would come into view from knowing the car he has put into a track.

Some moves might have looked bad but with out a radio or knowing what the crew talkied about before getting to this place it is hard to say. the slack might have been rolling out he might have been stopping the conductor got the derail off and proceeded with the move. as we tell trainmasters what you think you see may not have been what happened.

[mistercivil]

Thanks Wabash.

Like I said I'm new (not even, I'm still training). They're drilling safety into us like there's no tomorrow. Anyway, let me try and clear the picture up for you as I'm probably using wrong terminology in several spots. When I said head end, I meant the direction of movement. The two switchers were pushing the three cars (2 switchers, 1 box, 1 tank, 1 extended height box). Instead of siding I probably should have called it a branch line. Technically I think it was still in yard limits for Calgary so I'm not sure what you'd call it in that case. There wasn't actually a switch involved, it was just a derail that flops over the track. He had to get down on his knees to operate it. Anyway, thanks for your response.

[wabash1]

If it was me i would stop the movement and get the derail. ( that kind of derail) then restart the movement. as a engineer i would stop or move so slow it look like i was stopped. there are several safe short cuts but for that kind of derail there is none. and haft to agree with jack flash in this guy was stupid.

[edblysard]

From the sound of it, I would bet these guys do that paticular move almost daily, so they both know where the other one is and what he is doing.

But, and heres the smart part of the "stop within one half of..."
what would have happened if someone had locked the derail, and the conductor tried to flip it, and it wouldnt move.

Now he has to chose, try to dig his keys out of his pocket, unlock and remove the lock, and flop it over in time, or try to flag down the engineer.

My bet is he wouldnt have had time for either one, unles the engineer was on the same side as the conductor, and the line of sight was open.

The best rule I was ever taught is,
If you dont think it is safe to do, dont do it!

Count on this, no one except a grumpy old head is ever going to get upset with you if you encounter a situation where you are not positive what to do, and take a few minutes to stop and think it over before you act.
Once you get a few years in, and end up working with the same bunch of guys for a while, you learn what corners can be cut, and which one cant.

You will learn your engineers pattern, and he will learn yours.

My engineer dosnt really listen to what I am saying when we make a joint, he listens for my cadence, pattern and tone of voice to let him know when to start braking, and how close we really are to the coupling.

So count on these guys having done that move lots of time, but also count on one day, something wont go the way they think it should....
always leave your self a out, in any move.

Stay Frosty,
Ed

[PNWRMNM]

mistercivil,

Ed's response is too polite. What you described is a bonehead move that sooner or later will result in at least a derailment and perhaps an injury or fatality. He should get a week off to think about it.

[wabash1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by PNWRMNM

mistercivil,

Ed's response is too polite. What you described is a bonehead move that sooner or later will result in at least a derailment and perhaps an injury or fatality. He should get a week off to think about it.

sounds like the usual officails response. and as usual its is overboard.

[PNWRMNM]

Wabash,

You agree that it was a bad move. How would you convey that message?

[bestengineer]

yes! It happens alot where I worked at. (I was an Locomotive Engineer for the DT&I, GTW, AnnArbor, &CN for over 24yrs.) You will Have all Kind of guys doing that kind of stuff. Me as an Engineer, I have to Work safe, so many times I stop with in one half. But some times a smart -Butt pulls stuff like that.
(Bestengineer)

[wabash1]

If i was there and part of the crew i would ask before we get there are you going to stop and get the derail and if this happened after I ask then i would ask why did you do this on that type of derail. and get him to thinking about this move.

But we have been quick to judge with out knowing all the facts these men may have already talked about how this move was going to be made and probley do it everyday. ( this is something my crew does) he might have a system where he counts down the move and at 1 car might be 2 cars in reality and be moving at 1-2 mph when he gets off and gets the switch and derail, then get on while still shoving with a proper count. if i go 1 car and they aint said stop of any car count ( reason for the 2 car leway) you stop once its lined you keep moving . its all about time and if you only have a few cars this is fine but depending on equipment and tonnage you move accordingly. at first glance this looks bad but in the way they was working it might not be that it was safe.

In reality i side stepped the question you ask. but in a way i didnt. the just of it is in railroading you dont go and just talk about the things you do as being right and wrong. the man might have a week of exsperiance or might have 30 years. as a engineer i will say something to the man who put me in a bind when he gets on the engine and it is just us. nice and polite. but meaningful. This method seem to be a way that works where you are asking not to be involved in a questionable move that may get all in trouble ... instead of drawing attention to the situation for all to hear. they may be mad at first they get over it. but in no way would i say anything if i was not part of that crew and involved in that move.

[Anonymous]

To answer a couple of things you asked, this is the M Lead off the Red Deer sub. The spur in question spots the North Hill News and has a derail on the east side of 19th Street. The crews that work there yes may seem lacking in their awareness to the rules that you are learning in school. I too attended Buck U and the cndr program there. Learning the books and applying the rules is completely different than actually working on the ground. You will find this out faster than anything else when you finish at SAIT. I myself spent two weeks training on the assignment that works the M Lead.

I can garauntee that the crew had some form of job briefing as to whom would be where and what they would do. Also as for the derail and the distance that should be travelled before a stop is made, as long as the engr stops short of the derail there is no need to worry about this situation. Did the cndr flag for the crossing? I didnt see you mention anything about that, and because the west side of the crossing is a mere half car from the derail and you said he was 25 feet from the movement is a stop really needed in this situation? The derail itself is another car from the joint they would have been making.

I am not going to say that you should work unsafely, and SAIT does an excellent job promoting it, but like some of the other people have mentioned there are corners that you can cut, ones you know are safe and you can get away with. This just happens to be a bad example to students, by railroaders with years of experience/

My two cents

MWS

[mistercivil]

Thanks SRY. Your two cents is worth alot. Anyway, thanks also for clearing up all the various stuff I didn't know. When did you go to SAIT?