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TV Alert- Mythbusters and Train Suction

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TV Alert- Mythbusters and Train Suction
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 16, 2006 10:22 AM

For those of you who get the Discovery Channel, the show Mythbusters (Wednesday night, 9PM Eastern) will be broadcasting a test of the urban myth "Can you be sucked into a train if you stand close enough?"

I saw the previews for this episode, and it looks like they are using either a California transit train or AMTRAK.

If you have never seen the show before, it centers on two Hollywood special effects men who try to test urban legends to see if they are true or not.

Enjoy the show... they also repeat the episode periodically throughout the week.

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Posted by CNW 6000 on Monday, October 16, 2006 10:26 AM
I'll watch it!  Sounds neat.  For those who are much more knowledgeable...what do you think?  Possible or not?

Dan

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Posted by TomDiehl on Monday, October 16, 2006 10:30 AM
But as Adam would say, "Do we still get to blow it up?" Shock [:O]
Smile, it makes people wonder what you're up to. Chief of Sanitation; Clowntown
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Posted by CNW 6000 on Monday, October 16, 2006 10:32 AM
That would be a great big BOOM!  I doubt they'll get to do that.

Dan

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Posted by tree68 on Monday, October 16, 2006 10:37 AM

Sounds like their resident dummy (really - it's a mannekin) will suffer again. 

Having stood within a few feet of an Amtrak train that was likely doing every bit of 70, the show should prove interesting...  Hopefully I'll catch it - the schedule is a little busy this week.  Still have to figure out if I can catch a repeat of a show on firefighting.

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Posted by vsmith on Monday, October 16, 2006 11:03 AM
Bet all they find is that the pressure wave of air being pushed out of the way of a fast train would more likely push you out of the way, not suck you under as all that air is moving along with the train, experience this with both trains and trucks.

   Have fun with your trains

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Posted by zardoz on Monday, October 16, 2006 11:16 AM

 CNW 6000 wrote:
I'll watch it!  Sounds neat.  For those who are much more knowledgeable...what do you think?  Possible or not?

Not.

As Vic pointed out, the air being PUSHED in front of a fast train might be sufficient to cause a smaller person to feel the nudge from the air blast, but the 'suction' at the rear of a fast train, while noticable (consider all of the leaves and papers that you see being pulled along when a high-speed train passes), is nowhere enough to pull someone in.

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Posted by route_rock on Monday, October 16, 2006 11:21 AM
  Ihave had a guy turn into Mary Freakin Poppins in Chicago along the racetrack. We had a set of MTY hoppers and blew by at 50ish. He had a umberella and wound up getting lifted and tossed back from the yellow line.So from that experience and just watching the way stuff gets blown in front of a train and not really sucked under it I will have to say Myth. Poor Buster though hes going to get tossed about a bit I bet.

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Posted by oltmannd on Monday, October 16, 2006 11:52 AM

Metroliners passing MP54s with wood sash windows were know to suck them right out of their frames....but how big a pressure gradient that creates over the width of a person and the area it acts on vis-a-vis a standing person's stability is a good question. 

Should be interesting, especially since those guys tend to pay attention the basic engineering and science involved - before they blow it up.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 16, 2006 2:07 PM

My guess- and it's only a guess- is that if there really WAS a suction problem, the yellow warning lines would be painted back farther.  It surprised me when I visited my hometown depot (a raised platform "bus stop" deal) that warning lines were only a foot or so from the edge.  Considering that this station is part of the route for Acela, and considering it is one of the few straight stretches of rail betwee New Haven and Boston, my understanding is that the Acela picks up some heavy duty speed.  I think the hazard from a passing train is more from the various objects sticking out of it than suction.

Back in the old days (I can hear the kids groaning) in the sixties I used to sit on the station platform (ground level) when the New Haven blew express trains by me.  At that time the roadbed was pretty sad and I doubt THE PATRIOT was doing much more than 40.  There was a lot of dust... lots of crud getting blown around... but no suction.  I sat with my back to the train depot and feet no more than three windy feet from the rails.  I got deaf from the train passing and dirty (which never made my mother happy) but sucked in... never.  The stationmaster, who good naturedly put up with my near daily presence around the depot, always kept an eye on me.

I believe that the Mythbusters will bust this myth.  Know why? Cause a train never sucks!

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 16, 2006 3:26 PM
Oltman, I remember hearing about the Metroliner sucking out windows of other trains from my dad.  Do you think they were sucked out or maybe blown out by shock wave of passing train?
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Posted by JSGreen on Monday, October 16, 2006 3:49 PM

I would guess "Sucked Out"....and we can blame Bernoulli.
When two trains pass, they are moving relatively quickly.  After the first "Wave" of pressure passes,  the trains rushing by each other will tend to accelerate the air between them.  Bernoulli says if the air is moving faster, the static pressure will be less...therefore the air pressure in the coach would be greater than the air pressure outside.  If it is even 2psi difference, over a 24x24in window, that would generate 1152  lbs of force OUTWARDS.

I wonder if the boys will address the "Mesmerizing" effect of a train rushing by...when I was a kiid, watching a freight train roll by from a grade crossing, I found myself wandering closer and closer to the tracks....I believe the effect has been documented elswhere....
...I may have a one track mind, but at least it's not Narrow (gauge) Wink.....
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Posted by doghouse on Monday, October 16, 2006 3:57 PM
More of a "push," not all that strong.  The roar of the power unit raises the hair on the back of your neck.  There is a small "woosh" of air as the gap between cars passes. 
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Posted by MStLfan on Monday, October 16, 2006 5:22 PM

From my experiences here in the Netherlands I would say that an effect is definitely there. The faster the train goes the more the effect. Ditto for the length of the train. However, the effect dimishes rather rapidly the more you move away from the edge of the high level platforms we have here.

Trainspeed is between 120 and 140 kph on most tracks. Counting the gap between train and platform, size of the structure that forms the side of the platform (about 10 cm) and a full tile (full tiles are 30x30 cm) before you get to, and then including, the safety tile (which has a width of another half tile) that means the safe zone begins about 55 cm from the trains. The effect is still noticible there, though.

Lines where the speed limit is 160 kph have a wider margin, I guess 30 cm, or a tile, more.

See the picture below for a typical platform even if it is at a big station.

 

greetings,

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 16, 2006 5:50 PM
What i've noticed with caltrain is when the loco passes you at 70
it pulls you in, but when the rest of the cars went by it blew you back
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 16, 2006 6:09 PM
Something is sooo getting blown up. It wouldn't be a mythbusters show without an explosion or a fire. That's why it's one of my favorite shows.
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Posted by MStLfan on Monday, October 16, 2006 6:28 PM

I love it, the ways they think up to destroy their trusting mannikin. But with this one that might not happen. Can't see it anyway.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

For whom the Bell Tolls John Donne From Devotions upon Emergent Occasions (1623), XVII: Nunc Lento Sonitu Dicunt, Morieris - PERCHANCE he for whom this bell tolls may be so ill, as that he knows not it tolls for him; and perchance I may think myself so much better than I am, as that they who are about me, and see my state, may have caused it to toll for me, and I know not that.
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Posted by David_Telesha on Monday, October 16, 2006 7:10 PM

I would think that if someone indeed get "sucked" under a train, it would be a result of losing their balance from the "blast" from the passing train. As the air flow pushed them back, they panic, and throw their weight forward, there by falling forward into the train and into the airflow along it.

Of course that wouldn't be a result of any suction (if there is any) caused by the train...

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Posted by oltmannd on Monday, October 16, 2006 8:03 PM

 JSGreen wrote:

I would guess "Sucked Out"....and we can blame Bernoulli.
When two trains pass, they are moving relatively quickly.  After the first "Wave" of pressure passes,  the trains rushing by each other will tend to accelerate the air between them.  Bernoulli says if the air is moving faster, the static pressure will be less...therefore the air pressure in the coach would be greater than the air pressure outside.  If it is even 2psi difference, over a 24x24in window, that would generate 1152  lbs of force OUTWARDS.

I second that explanation!

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Posted by edblysard on Monday, October 16, 2006 8:28 PM

Close clearance in confined spaces can create a pretty good suction.

Think inside a tunnel, or between a standing train and a moving train.

But, unless the moving train was pulling pretty darn quickly, an average person can withstand the suction.

I work in a yard, and often I am in between a standing train and a moving one...there is a small amount of under pressure there, but not enough to worry about.

Now, say a Metro train passing by while you are in a tunnel, or next to anything solid, like a wall, and the clearance is tight, you might, just might experience enough suction to scare you…

With a freight train, the “space” between the cars allows enough air movement to break any suction…with a passenger train, and the diaphragms between the cars sealing that space, you could get a fairly large negative pressure under the train, but still…

23 17 46 11

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Posted by CShaveRR on Monday, October 16, 2006 8:54 PM

One time my younger daughter and I were eating our lunch trackside, on a bench on the station platform.  A stack train came by on the closest track, and, despite being several feet to the safe side of the warning line, we had to hang onto our lunches and grab our bicycles to keep them from following the train down the platform.  I didn't want to take the chance that we/they would be sucked under, but "sucked along" seemed like a more distinct possibility.

Daughter gained a new respect for track condition and train speed on that trip--never realized that a freight train could take the curve just beyond the platform at 70!

Carl

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Posted by cprted on Monday, October 16, 2006 11:09 PM
I don't get the discovery channel where I am now. What's the verdict?
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Posted by Datafever on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 1:16 AM
 cprted wrote:
I don't get the discovery channel where I am now. What's the verdict?

The original post indicated that the show would air on Wednesday.

Patience, my friend Smile [:)]
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Posted by cprted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 1:43 PM
Ahh, this is what I get for not reading things carefully. Drinking and posting, its the new drinking and dialing.
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Posted by beaulieu on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 2:58 PM
Remember how the back of a station wagon or van will get plastered with dirt or snow. Its the same idea. As was previously mentioned its the Bernoulli Effect involved. At speed the train moves air out of the space it is occupying. once it has passed the air moves back in. This same effect is also why airplanes can fly, the shape of the wing creates a low pressure area on top of the wing and a high pressure area beneath it, the airplane is sucked upwards, unless it is flying upside down, then it quacks up.
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Posted by zardoz on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 3:39 PM

 beaulieu wrote:
the shape of the wing creates a low pressure area on top of the wing and a high pressure area beneath it, the airplane is sucked upwards, unless it is flying upside down, then it quacks up.

That's only true for ducks.

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Posted by CrazyDelmar on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 4:31 PM

the percentages:

  • 10% that it will work
  • 85% it does nothing
  • 5% It works on someone besides Buster...........

 

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Posted by jeaton on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 5:13 PM

It will be fun to see the result of their test.

I don't recall ever reading any reports of  persons sucked into trains.  Leads me to believe that (1) people are so aware of the myth that they always stand well back form the train (yea, right!), or (2) the force is not great enough to draw a person into or under a train.

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Posted by spokyone on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 5:35 PM

Last year near Galesburg, 2 teens stood between the mains for a rush. Soon, two fast moving trains passed by in opposite directions. They were tossed about like pieces of paper. They suffered only broken bones and abrasions. Not sure if they were sucked in or up.

Bob

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Posted by trainfan1221 on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:24 PM
Mythbusters is a fun show.  I didn't see this episode but will keep an eye out.

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