What types (coach, diner, obsevation, dome, baggage, etc) of streamliners did New Haven run?
Thanks
New Haven ran a full service while it could, there were "streamliners" like the "Comet",the 1957-8 lightweights (Dan'l Webster, Roger Williams and John Quincy Adams) , All-RDC runs and the "Yankee Clipper" which were all-streamlined. Otherwise, NH ran mixed lightweight, "American Flyer" and heavyweight consists to cover their other services. Nearly all their top line trains on the shore line had full service consists, but Observation car service on the "Yankee Clipper" was very short lived. There were no dome cars since they wouldn't fit under the catenary west of New Haven, or get into Grand Central Terminal, or South Station, Boston.
Now, there are the PRR's Washington-Boston trains, which were all-streamlined consists after PRR got their Budd coaches, diners, lounges,parlors,sleepers and club/observations. They were owned by PRR and NH ran the trains into South Station adding their own head end cars and extra coaches as needed. Again, no domes because of clearances.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
While I don't have an answer to your question, I might suggest that you join the New Haven Railroad Historical & Technical Society. A one year membership would cost you $30.00. I think they publish a lot of information. I simply did a google search of New Haven Railroad and this is what I came up with.
CANADIANPACIFIC2816
You might be interested in the roster I put together...for NH Streamlined cars.. Both the smoothside LW pre-War American Flyer (Osgood Bradley Pullman Standard) cars... (first AC cars in NE)... and the fluted Stainless Steel post-War Pullman Standard cars...
http://www.freewebs.com/nestatesrail/newhavenpassengercars.htm
The majority New Haven's were unique with the rounded roof ends and several other spotting features, except for the sleepers which had the standard P-S roofline.. The picture linked in an above post is a grill car and has 61BNO trucks (3 axle) while the other cars had 41BNO trucks (2 axles)...
IMO..the New Haven (pre McGinnis orange...ie. the Green schemes) had the best looking passenger fleet on the rails in the world.. even after the McGinnis scheme came out.. The car designs and trains were 1st class all the way...
I second CP2816's suggestion of joining the NHRHTA...its a great organization... I happen to be on the Techincal Committee and handle the sale of passenger consist books...
Post World War II New Haven passenger trains consisted of mostly streamlined, lightweight cars on the NewYork-Boston Shoreline with a mixture of lightweight and heavy weight cars on its other routes. The Post World War II New York - Boston trains (mostly in the daytime) carried coaches parlor cars and either grill cars or dining cars.
The thru Boston - Washington trains also used the New Haven cars on two of the trains, the Colonial and the Patriot while the Senator had Budd built streamlined coaches, parlor cars, a dining car and a lunch counter/lounge car; one of the Senator's parlor cars was a parlor-observation car.
According to Geoffrey Doughty's "New Haven Railroad's Streamline Passenger Fleet 1934 - 1953" the New Haven did have two round end observation cars which were initially used on the rear of the Merchants Limited, but the cars were converted for use in mid-train service by adding diaphragms to the round end..
Well, I've got a 1956 Official Guide, and 50 years ago the NY, NH & H had passenger trains that would be unbelievable today.
For example, Nos. 2 and 3, "The Owl". Night sleeping car (no coaches) trains between New York and Boston. Rolled out of New York nightly except Saturday with 12 sleepers. Two were set out at Providence, RI, ten went through to Boston. Can you imagin?
Then there was the "Merchants Limited", Nos. 26 and 27, which left each terminal daily at 5:00 PM. It carried six parlor cars, a full diner, a grill car and coaches. Mobile telephone service was offered in 1956.
On Friday's and Sunday's a regular "Advance Merchants Limited" left town 15 minutes ahead of the regular train carrying coaches and a grill car.
And my favoite, because of the Mark Twain tie in, No. 80, the Connecticut Yankee. Leaving New York five minutes after the Merchants Limited but going to Springfield, MA with a parlor, diner and coaches.
Then there were the run through trains with the Pennsylvania between Boston and Washington, DC. The overnight was "The Federal", Nos. 171 and 172. Seven Boston-Washington sleepers, a Providence-Washington sleeper, and a Springfield-Washington sleeper. Coaches, but no diner.
And there was a lot more than that. I'm still amazed when I look at those schedules in that old Guide.
They had a heck of a passenger operation. They lost money on it and went broke. But it was a heck of an operation that would be inconcievable today.
The Federal ran away in 1953 arriving Washington on the Pennsylvania. For a reason that to my knowledge has never been explained, it lost its air brakes coming into DC. It's GG1 crashed into the terminal and went through the floor.
PBenham wrote: New Haven ran a full service while it could, there were "streamliners" like the "Comet",the 1957-8 lightweights (Dan'l Webster, Roger Williams and John Quincy Adams) , All-RDC runs and the "Yankee Clipper" which were all-streamlined. Otherwise, NH ran mixed lightweight, "American Flyer" and heavyweight consists to cover their other services. Nearly all their top line trains on the shore line had full service consists, but Observation car service on the "Yankee Clipper" was very short lived. There were no dome cars since they wouldn't fit under the catenary west of New Haven, or get into Grand Central Terminal, or South Station, Boston. Now, there are the PRR's Washington-Boston trains, which were all-streamlined consists after PRR got their Budd coaches, diners, lounges,parlors,sleepers and club/observations. They were owned by PRR and NH ran the trains into South Station adding their own head end cars and extra coaches as needed. Again, no domes because of clearances.
I'm curious as to what was the restriction at South Station? GCT is in tunnels but I can't figure what would be the problem in Boston. If I remember right, even the platform sheds are the butterfly type and wouldn't extend over the tracks. Sadly, I've never been east but once so I don't know the area or station at all, so I'm as confused as usual.
There were and still are overpasses and in some cases buildings built over the tracks between Back Bay and South Stations. These provided height restriction, not only for passenger, but also for freight cars. My recollection is that the standard sleeper with the green windowband later, painted orange during the McGinnis era were 10 and 6 and not 14 and 4, but I might be mistaken. My memory says these were the "Point" series. In addition, there were the "Beach" series where the window band remained unpainted, as on identacle B&M cars, which were combination section, bedroom, and romette cars, and I don't remember the proportions.
Most unusual and widely used on the NH, were the parlor-combines. In fact, if my memory is correct, all combines in the postwar lightweight fleet were parlor combines and not coach combines. The theory was that while the Merchants and the Flying Yankee would use a full baggage car, or simply not carry checked baggage or any express, most Shore Line trains needing any baggage service also handled parlor car passengers, and tradition on the New Haven, except for the times when the Merchants and the Yankee Clipper carried the round-end observation cars, was for parlor cars to be located at the front of the NY-Boston trains. Branch lines were not part of this policy because trains weren't turned, the parlor on the NY-Pittsfield "Lithcfield" ran at the front northbound and at the rear southbound.
Some of the prewar American Flyers (not unique to the New Haven although designed for them, also bought by the KCS, B&M, and Southern, possibly others, and with a second-hand appearance on the LIRR, some stil used by tourist railroads) had modernized interiors to match the postwar 8600-series, and were the New Haven coach equipment assigned to the State of Maine and the Montrealer/Washingtonian.
Kevin C. Smith wrote: PBenham wrote: New Haven ran a full service while it could, there were "streamliners" like the "Comet",the 1957-8 lightweights (Dan'l Webster, Roger Williams and John Quincy Adams) , All-RDC runs and the "Yankee Clipper" which were all-streamlined. Otherwise, NH ran mixed lightweight, "American Flyer" and heavyweight consists to cover their other services. Nearly all their top line trains on the shore line had full service consists, but Observation car service on the "Yankee Clipper" was very short lived. There were no dome cars since they wouldn't fit under the catenary west of New Haven, or get into Grand Central Terminal, or South Station, Boston. Now, there are the PRR's Washington-Boston trains, which were all-streamlined consists after PRR got their Budd coaches, diners, lounges,parlors,sleepers and club/observations. They were owned by PRR and NH ran the trains into South Station adding their own head end cars and extra coaches as needed. Again, no domes because of clearances. I'm curious as to what was the restriction at South Station? GCT is in tunnels but I can't figure what would be the problem in Boston. If I rememeber right, even the platform sheds are the butterfly type and wouldn't extend over the tracks. Sadly, I've never been east but once so I don't know the area or station at all, so I'm as confused as usual.
I'm curious as to what was the restriction at South Station? GCT is in tunnels but I can't figure what would be the problem in Boston. If I rememeber right, even the platform sheds are the butterfly type and wouldn't extend over the tracks. Sadly, I've never been east but once so I don't know the area or station at all, so I'm as confused as usual.
Hmm... You guys seem to be forgetting a little something called catenary... New Haven-Park Avenue overhead wires.... I would not want to be in a dome that close to wires carrying 11000vAC 25Hz....
BaltACD wrote:New Haven did not use the traditional Streamlined equipment, they use the 'so-called' American Flyer style lightweight equipment where the roof ends were rounded.
As a little kid in the 1960s I lived in New York City and remember well those New Haven trains with the "turtle roof" streamliners. The red-orange stripe and big windows stood out. At times when we were driving to Connecticutt on the highway there were some areas where we were close to the tracks. Those trains had to be whipping by at 80mph or more. Even though the locomotives were usually dirty ( EP5s and FL9s) I thought they were so cool! My dad noticed me "salivating" whenever I saw trains and started buying me train sets. It's his fault I got hooked! (r.i.p Dad)
I remember my thrill in January 1971 when my family and I actually took a train to Connecticut so my Dad could pick up our new Pontiac. Smooth, quiet train ride. Seat was comfortable though the train was packed. Even though it was Penn Central by then we didn't encouter any of the "nightmare stories" that so many people today talk about regarding the PC back then.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
According to Geoffrey Doughty's Book "The New Haven Railroad in the Streamline Era," the New Haven owned 6 Section, 6 Roomette, 4 Double Bed Room (Beach Series), 14 Roomette, 4 Double Bedroom (Point Series), and 6 Double Bed RoomBuffet Lounge (State Series) Sleepers; it dd not own any 10-6 Sleepers.
The New Haven also had twenty baggage-buffet-parlor combines which had one drawing room and two day roomettes. Some of these cars were rebuilt to remove the baggage compartment.
The two round end tavern lounge observation cars were only used on the Merchants Limited, they were not used on the Yankee Clipper (not the Flying Yankee which was a Boston & Maine/Maine Central train).
You are partially right about the prewar Pullman Standard ("American Flyer") streamlined coaches. As you pointed out they were used by the Boston & Maine and the KCS, but they were also used by the the Cotton Belt, the Great Northern, and later by the Long Island; the Southern never had any "American Flyer" coaches.
On the subject of streamliner, "American Flyer", "turtle roof" and the like, does anyone know the standards for passenger car floor and roof heights?
I understand 36" is typical for passenger car wheels -- how much higher than 36" does the interior floor go so there is room for the wheels, the floor structure, and some bounce on the springs?
My guess is that the standard floor height is somewhere around 4'6" to 5', and the tops of standard streamliner cars is about 13' 6" meaning you have 8' 6" of headroom. Are the ceiling really that high or do they have AC ducts and other stuff in an "attic" above ceiling height. Also, the Amfleet cars seem to have a slightly lower roofline than the standard streamline, and the Bombardier LRC cars seem to have an even lower profile, although both seem to have standard floor heights -- do they have lower ceilings or simply less "attic" above the ceiling?
Chicago commuter gallery bilevels seem to have a slightly lower floor -- they don't ever need to disembark on high level platforms (except for the Illinois Central line electric bilevels), and they are trying to maximize vertical space to get the bilevel gallery arrangement. The reason I say they have a lower floor is they have a step up to the doors between cars market with dire warning against tripping on that step. Do they have 33" wheels on those things to make this work?
With the bilevel arrangement, I am guessing that all of the vertical space is in use, so where do they put whatever ductwork goes into the ceiling? Is it crammed into the "attic" above the center doors?
Based on riding Hi-level cars and seeing photos of Superliner and California cars, I am guessing that the interior ceilings are up against the roofline on account of height constraints as with the commuter gallery cars. Based on the heights of ceilings and roofline height above the elevated deck, it seems that single level cars could have lower rooflines like the LRC and save on weight in the process. What constraints set roofline height for standard streamline passenger cars?
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Put down my "Flying Yankee" mistake to a slight case of Dislexia. Of course I knew the train was the Yankee Clipper. Must have ridden it about 50 times! During heavy traffic, grill car AND dining car on the same train!
And I owned the Lionel B&M "Flying Yankee" as a kid and once ran a B&M freight Portmouth - Boston when I assisted Ernie Bloss as a locomotive test engineer while pursuing my "diesel locomotive load regulator control" thesis at MIT.
Thanks for the correction about 14 and 4 and not 10 and 6. I assume the Boston and Maine Darmouth College I and Dartmouth College II were also 14 & 4's? Or were they identacle to the Beach cars. The State cars were used on the State of Maine and the Montrealer, if I remember correctly. I never saw them on the Owl. Possibly on the Federal, also. The Federal had a drop sleeper for Providence, and Senator Pell used it regularly. Coaches, but not sleepers which were a mixture, on the Federal were usually mostly PRR, balancing car use over the whole Washington - Boston operation.
The Southern did have a few cars similar to the American Flyers, and so did the SAL. But they may have been second hand Reading cars or cars built similarly. Or possibly during WWII I simply saw some leased or borrowed equipment.
I assure you that there were occasions when on or the other of the round-ends was used on the Merchants, but it may have been a special occasion. You are correct about the train in general, in fact the parlors were usually up front as typical on NY-Boston trains.
Despite the turn-down of the roofs at the ends on the prewar American Flyers and the postwar flueted side cars, I would not call these turtle roof cars. They had a low roof like most streamliners. The turtle roof cars were like the UP, SP, and Rock Island "Harriman" cars, many rebuilt Pennsy P-70's, a good many Pullmans rebuilt into modern business cars. Turtle roofs have the peak of the curve at the same height as the top of the cleristory of a regular cleristory, railroad roof, monitor roof car.
The New Haven sleepers did not have the turn-down but were constructed like other postwar Pullman-built sleepers.
Did any other railroad have Parlor-baggage combines, or, as I suspect, was it a New Haven exclusive?
Dave,
I understand what you mean about the heavyweight cars with the high roofs. However, the turtle roof reference, which I've also seen written regarding these NH cars is simply meant to differentiate them from the typical 1950s streamlined 85ft Budd and Pullman Standard design.
In looking at the photo above, it looks like a low profile version of the rounded roof of some of the heavyweight cars, such as the P70 but that is just my opinion.
I think Dave Telesha stated before that these cars are also referred to as the 8600 series, but I don't remeber fully.
Rebuilt P70's came is all kinds of shapes. Some had low roofs and looked just like a new streamlined car, some with picture windows and some with single windows unchanged. Some still had monitor/cleristory roofs even with modern interioris and air conditioning and some of these had picture windows. There were some with high turtle roofs and their were some with roofs like the American Flyers (the 8200 series on the New Haven, including Gilbert American Flyer's 8302 -two cars with identacle dcals for both- with their HO New York Central J1 Hudson (5308?) HO-gauge train set) and the postwar 8600's. The overall design of the postwar lighweights was identacle to the prewar American Flyers, just with the stainless fluting added below belt rail, stainless letterboard, and interior reclining seats with the lounge section at one end. These cars never had full-width diaphragms which came with many streamliners and then were removed and replaced with conventional diaphragms, since the full width feature was just for show and maybe a tiny a bit of good in cutting wind resistance.
I don't remember if the 1950 Budd PRR equipment, some of the most beautiful cars ever build, especially the interiors but outside as well, for the Congressionals and the Senator had full-width diaphragms or not originally. And I don't remembe the numbering series.
Insidentally, at least for a while, there was PRR "Creek" unusual duplex roomette car, beds running crosswise and rooms staggered step up, step down, with the unusual exterior window arrangement on one side, as a regular on the Federal.
I don't remember the numbering series of the postwar cars except for the coaches, which were the 8600's. The prewar American Flyers came only in the coach version if my memory is correct and were numbered upward from 8200. .
And the New Haven continued to run wood-sided baggage cars into GCT until 1955 when the NYC finally forced them to buy some second-hand steel ones! Some, if I remember correctly, were short and had only one door on each side.
By the way.......
I've seen photos, here and there, of surviving New Haven streamliners like the one pictured above.
I'm not mistaken, their construction utilized Core-10 steel and in the long run rust becomes a problem if not maintained.
Does anyone know if any of these streamliners have been restored? If so where? Museums or tourist lines?
New Haven post-WWI parlor cars were delivered with two rows of seats on one side and one on the other. The coaches were delviered first, and the Merchants Limited continued operating as an all-heavywieght parlorcar train with observation at the end. About this time, American airlines was changing its hourly LaGuardia - Boston flights from DC-3's to DC-6's and Eastern to Constallations, and together both airlines provided hourly service. (This was not the Air Shuttle concept, that came later.) When the Merchants was put into service, it was an all-parlor train with the round-end observations at the rear. When parlor traffic fell off, Bill Goodwin decided to add coaches, also a grill car for low-priced meals in addition to the regular diner, with both being available for both classes of passengers. Since parlors traditionally were run at the front of the train, and more scenery could be enjoyed during daylight hours, the round-end observations were moved to the Yankee Clipper. But then at some time shortly after they were reconfigured into mid-train lounges and saw more general service, ending up as commuter club cars running out of Grand Central on locomotive-hauled commuter trips.
The PRR Budd parlor cars built for the Senator (and of-course the morning and evening Congressionals) had one-and-one seating. The New Haven began a program of converting the two and one parlor seating to one and one, and I believe all straight parlors made it through the program. Some of the parlor combines, delivered with two and one, did not make it through the program but were converted for other uses. As late as 1959, there were still some two-and-one parlor combines runnimg.
One train worth modeling, if that is your interest, would be the summer 1949 Yankee Clipper, with an I-5 streamlined Hudson up front, followed by four six-wheel truck heavyweight parlors, a similar diner, and six or seven lightweight brand-new fluted sided with green window stripe lightweight coaches.
The heavyweight parlors were not scrapped. They interoduced air conditioning on Boston commuter trains, reseated with non-reclinging coach seats. They and downgraded mainline coaches replaced the ex-New York Westchester and Boston de-motored mu cars introduced before WWII, which had replaced the last of the wooden open-platform New Haven commuter cars serving Boston.
Coach travel on the Merchants boomed, and for a while an Advance Merchants was run, also modern coaches, parlors, and diner, but no grill car, with the first 4-hour Boston-NY timing.
There are a couple of NH pax car pics here... http://www.trainweb.org/passengercars/Indices/N1.htm
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