Pulling a N&W J-class Steamer

[Anonymous]

I recently read on Virginia's Musuem of  Transportation website that the N&W J-class 611 was so efficiently counterbalanced and engineered that it could be pulled by a couple of guys and a rope. I know that the J-class was very well engineered and argubaly the fastest passenger engine with the lowest drivers; but 2-3 average full grown men being able to pull it with a rope seems a little extreme. I just that this would spark some interest in all the steam fans out their. You can follow my link to the Virginia Musuem of Transportation below, click exhibits, and you should see the link to the j-class.

-Matt Ferencz

http://www.vmt.org/exhibits.htm

 

 

[Hugh Jampton]

It actually says "that one could be pulled by several people with a rope". Well,, how many is several in reality,, half a dozen? ten/ 20? And size of people isn't mentioned. Charles Atlas? Arnie? that exercise guy my mum used to watch??

[CopCarSS]

Didn't Timken stage a stunt where a group of secretaries pulled the "Four Aces" Northern, which was one of the first locos equiped with roller bearings?

[Leon Silverman]

The Class J could probably be pulled by three "average" men if they were tackles on a professional football team.  The Class J engine (without tender) alone weighs 494,000 lbs.  This engine was equipped with roller bearings, which according to my "Design of Machine Elements" by M.F. Spotts, has an average friction value of 0.0011.  This results in a friction force of  543.4 pounds that would be needed to keep the engine moving. Off hand, I would think they would need at least one extra guy to give it an initial shove since static friction is always higher than rolling friction.  I would also suspect that the connecting rods would have to be removed to avoid any resistance from the steam chests.  

[Poppa_Zit]

Didn't Timken stage a stunt where a group of secretaries pulled the "Four Aces" Northern, which was one of the first locos equiped with roller bearings?

Like this?

From Timken Industries website:

During the early 1930's, the competitive advantages of tapered roller bearings had been proven on automotive passenger cars; however, locomotives remained a challenge for Timken. To demonstrate that tapered roller bearings could be successfully used on locomotive axles, Timken commissioned the "Four Aces" -- the first steam locomotive equipped with Timken tapered roller bearings. Using three women to pull the locomotive with a rope, the Four Aces was an outstanding success and achieved all the objectives. During the two years of intensive testing on 13 different rails and 23 years of heavy service on the Northern Pacific Railway, this engine never failed. It saved fuel and ran at high speeds more smoothly than conventional steam locomotives. This reduced engine and track maintenance that was due to the heavy pounding caused by driver wheels equipped with standard non-tapered bearings.

[Modelcar]

....You just uncovered my concerns of the friction in the steam cylinders....I think it would be possible to move it without having to move the pistons, etc....

[CopCarSS]

Yup! That's the one!

[cnw4001]

I can't recall the type of steam engine operated by the Western Maryland Scenic but each year during one of the railroad events in Cumberland groups pull it by rope at the station. It is an annual contest and the distance pulled is fixed and the winner is by timing.

[Poppa_Zit]

I remember seeing a story dating back to the 1920s where as a publicity stunt a professional strongman pulled a locomotive using a rope held between in his teeth.  

[canazar]

[

 

WOW.   Rather impressive.    I know there are laws of friction, drag, and all that jazz to explain it all.   But....  just today, I had to grunt and grunt to move a 1986 Toyota 4 Runner (heavily modified I might, but still a 4-Runner) by pushing and pulling to the other side of the shop.   It only weighs 4000.  IF!..

Amazing.

[tree68]

WOW.   Rather impressive.    I know there are laws of friction, drag, and all that jazz to explain it all.   But....  just today, I had to grunt and grunt to move a 1986 Toyota 4 Runner (heavily modified I might, but still a 4-Runner) by pushing and pulling to the other side of the shop.   It only weighs 4000.  IF!..

Amazing.

That's probably because each of those four sticky rubber tires was likely making more surface contact than all 16 steel wheels of the "Four Aces" combined..

[selector]

WOW.   Rather impressive.    I know there are laws of friction, drag, and all that jazz to explain it all.   But....  just today, I had to grunt and grunt to move a 1986 Toyota 4 Runner (heavily modified I might, but still a 4-Runner) by pushing and pulling to the other side of the shop.   It only weighs 4000.  IF!..

Amazing.

That's probably because each of those four sticky rubber tires was likely making more surface contact than all 16 steel wheels of the "Four Aces" combined..

Yes.  The steel wheels on the loco would have compressed very little, so the 'footprint" of each wheel, combined, would be less than that of one tire on the vehicle.  Then, you have three others that compress enough that you are essentially lifting the vehicle by the distance of tire compression. 

[rogruth]

OK. After it is moving , how many does it take to stop it?

[switch7frg]

Clover 1;  There also a  ( show and tell )   Of 4 or 5 cuties  pulling  a Niagra  # 6000 in 1945  for a publicity stunt. That engine also had tapered roller bearings . Respectfully, Cannonball

[Poppa_Zit]

Actually, rolling resistance on rubber-tired vehicles on a smooth concrete surface is amazing. I remember (when I was much younger) on the engine room floor at the firehouse I could move a fully-loaded pumper (out of gear, no e-brake) by putting my hand on top of one of the rear tires and sliding it sideways while pressing down.

It took some effort, but it could be done. I was pretty suprised when another fireman showed me that trick.  

[GP40-2]

It only took 3 men to pull the roller bearing equiped B&O EM1 on level ground. The EM1 was nearly 126 feet long, and weighed 1,010,000 lbs in working order.

[BR60103]

Back in the 50s, I read that Lionel had a picture of there class J model pulling the prototype.

I've never seen it.

[Modelcar]

....Rolling resistance of a rubber tired vehicle can be quite different depending what tires are installed on it....{among other factors}.

Radial belted tires have somewhat less rolling resistance than previously produced bias ply tires.  Hand pushing a vehicle with radial tires will be somewhat easier than a similar equipped vehicle equipped with bias ply tires...{all other factors being equal}.

[Modelcar]

....Now that would be interesting....{pulling the J-class steamer with a model}....Wonder how many it actually would take to do so....?

[TomDiehl]

Clover 1;  There also a  ( show and tell )   Of 4 or 5 cuties  pulling  a Niagra  # 6000 in 1945  for a publicity stunt. That engine also had tapered roller bearings . Respectfully, Cannonball

The women were probably stronger back then.  Maybe this is what Rosie the Riviter did before she retired.

[SALfan]

The women were probably stronger back then.  Maybe this is what Rosie the Riviter did before she retired.

I don't know about that.  I've known a couple of women who could probably have pulled that locomotive single-handed.  Always made it my business to be VERY nice to them, to avoid a lengthy hospital stay.

[Leon Silverman]

The trick to generating enough horizon force to move the locomotive is traction.  Those "cuties" are leaning back on their high heels and thus are able to translate their entire body weight into the ground. 

 I  remember being a counselor after graduating high school in a summer boys camp where we played a game called smugglers. The object of the game was for the "smugglers" to break through a ring of defenders, retrieve a block from the center, and break out again. We were caught if we were tackled to the ground on the way in or out.  I wore sneakers the first time and was broguht down by two or three people when my foot slipped.  After that, I sent home for my ripple soles shoes and was never brought down again unless I ran into the one counselr there who weighed more than I did.