For anyone in or around Pottstown PA!

[dharmon]

Ahh yes, HPD the epicenter of rationality and common sense.

Like I said, I'm not out to blame the crews. They have a job to do and unfortunately will get the blame either way.

[Puckdropper]

Common sense fails when you start talking money. A ticket is a ticket, and tickets mean fines. That means money for the goverments whose official writes it.

It would be better if common sense was common... ;-)

[Puckdropper]

Common sense fails when you start talking money. A ticket is a ticket, and tickets mean fines. That means money for the goverments whose official writes it.

It would be better if common sense was common... ;-)

[edblysard]

Hi Dan,
The hours of service law is a two edged sword.
It was put in place not only to prevent the carrier from abusing crews, but because there are some railroaders who would work 24 hours at a pop, if they got paid.
Anything beyond 8 hours on duty is overtime pay, not yur standard 40 hours a week then overtime.
A 12 hour day is 8 straight pay hours, and 4hours overtime pay.
Some guys are that hungry.
As for the common sense point, I dont have the GCOR right here with me, but the hours of service law contains your common sense clause, in that it allows the crew to continue to move the train if stopping it where they are presents a clear and present danger to the public, the carrier or another train.
In other words, if you have twenty cyanide tankcars blocking a ungated at grade public crossing, the crew would continue to move the train till those cars were no longer in danger of being hit.
The reason we dont even contact the carrier via radio is because they already know how long we have been working, (they called us, remember?), and we have already notified the dispatcher in advance that we are close to dieing on the law, (the rules say we must notify the DS in advance)
If we did contact the carrier,or perform any service to the carrier after 12 hours, then next time they will expect us to do so again, but this time, it will be along the lines of "why dont you just take it on up to milepost **** for the crew change, or some thing along those lines.
In the end, that carrier will expect you to continue to viloate the law to benefit them, and when the Feds start handing out fines, the carrier will say you performed the work on your own, without their knowledge.
Most crews are very aware of the local terrain, the number of crossings and their location, and where the circuts start and stop.
We plan ahead for the hours of service, by the 11th hour, you know if you can or cant get to where you need to.
I would bet, like Carl said, they got a bad wheel report, or, if they were using a counter, it was set wrong.
The newspaper story said they had pulled forward enough to clear the crossing, not the gate circut, and yes, one car too many will do that.
I would bet they had a minute or two left, so they stopped, tied the motors down, isolated them, the engineer removed the reverser, (the keys, if you will) and stuck it in his grip, and they walked to a local diner to wait for the cab, all of this pre arranged before hand with the dispatcher, crew caller and the trainmaster, totally unaware they were still in the circut for the crossing mentioned.
If we know we will block a crossing, and we know its a major crossing, the likes of which emergency personel would have to use, or if we know it is the only crossing for miles, we make plans to drop the conductor or brakeman off, and we will cut the crossing in the clear.
The idea that we just run until we are out of time, and then stop where ever we might be, public be dammed is silly.
Most cities and towns have a local ordanince concerning the amout of time a train may block a public crossing without moving.
Here in Houston, its 5 minutes for a "standing" train. If the train moves, even a car length, the clock starts over.
In Houston, its impossible to stop and not block a crossing somewhere.
And every so often, circumstances are beyond anyones control.
We had a automobile accident at a tee intersection, the main road tangent to our main line.
Auto traffic had backed up from the intersection on to and across our crossing, and so far back from there as to make it impossible for the morons who stopped on the crossing to back up.
Add to that the fact that they had pulled up to the intersection side by side, trying to cut into line.
We came around a curve, looking at six autos stopped on the crossing, with no where for them to go.
We stopped, and waited. And waited, and waited.
Before you ask, no, we couldnt back up, the DS had run another grain train right up behind us, less than a mile, and backing up that mile wouldnt clear anything up. So along comes a HPD Sargent, who decides to give us a ticket for blocking the crossings over five minutes.
Now, he can see the reason we are stopped, and instead of going to the crossing and making the morons move, he decides to give me a ticket.
He demands my drivers license, which I refuse to give him, mostly because I dont have it with me, all I carry on duty is my switchmans license,(a lost wallet on a railroad is lost forever).
So now he is pretty hot, wants to arrest me for failing to produce my drivers license, even though such a license dosnt give me the right to operate a locomotive, and I am the conductor, not the engineer.
Buy the way, the law says you only have to have a drivers liecense if you are opperating a motorized vehicle on public property, its a license only, not a required ID, you dont have to carry it with you all the time.
But I am the guy in charge, and he refuses to accept my switchmans license,
and he decides I am going to jail for not giving him my drivers license.
We ended up calling our railroad cops, who brough a trainmaster with them, and after several minutes of very heated argument, it came down to the trainmaster accepting, as a agent of the carrier, a traffic ticket for blocking a public crossing.
Now, had the cop excersised the rule of common sense, he would have cleared the crossing so we could have moved, instead he decided to play macho super cop.
Common sense?
Uh Huh!
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[edblysard]

Hi Dan,
The hours of service law is a two edged sword.
It was put in place not only to prevent the carrier from abusing crews, but because there are some railroaders who would work 24 hours at a pop, if they got paid.
Anything beyond 8 hours on duty is overtime pay, not yur standard 40 hours a week then overtime.
A 12 hour day is 8 straight pay hours, and 4hours overtime pay.
Some guys are that hungry.
As for the common sense point, I dont have the GCOR right here with me, but the hours of service law contains your common sense clause, in that it allows the crew to continue to move the train if stopping it where they are presents a clear and present danger to the public, the carrier or another train.
In other words, if you have twenty cyanide tankcars blocking a ungated at grade public crossing, the crew would continue to move the train till those cars were no longer in danger of being hit.
The reason we dont even contact the carrier via radio is because they already know how long we have been working, (they called us, remember?), and we have already notified the dispatcher in advance that we are close to dieing on the law, (the rules say we must notify the DS in advance)
If we did contact the carrier,or perform any service to the carrier after 12 hours, then next time they will expect us to do so again, but this time, it will be along the lines of "why dont you just take it on up to milepost **** for the crew change, or some thing along those lines.
In the end, that carrier will expect you to continue to viloate the law to benefit them, and when the Feds start handing out fines, the carrier will say you performed the work on your own, without their knowledge.
Most crews are very aware of the local terrain, the number of crossings and their location, and where the circuts start and stop.
We plan ahead for the hours of service, by the 11th hour, you know if you can or cant get to where you need to.
I would bet, like Carl said, they got a bad wheel report, or, if they were using a counter, it was set wrong.
The newspaper story said they had pulled forward enough to clear the crossing, not the gate circut, and yes, one car too many will do that.
I would bet they had a minute or two left, so they stopped, tied the motors down, isolated them, the engineer removed the reverser, (the keys, if you will) and stuck it in his grip, and they walked to a local diner to wait for the cab, all of this pre arranged before hand with the dispatcher, crew caller and the trainmaster, totally unaware they were still in the circut for the crossing mentioned.
If we know we will block a crossing, and we know its a major crossing, the likes of which emergency personel would have to use, or if we know it is the only crossing for miles, we make plans to drop the conductor or brakeman off, and we will cut the crossing in the clear.
The idea that we just run until we are out of time, and then stop where ever we might be, public be dammed is silly.
Most cities and towns have a local ordanince concerning the amout of time a train may block a public crossing without moving.
Here in Houston, its 5 minutes for a "standing" train. If the train moves, even a car length, the clock starts over.
In Houston, its impossible to stop and not block a crossing somewhere.
And every so often, circumstances are beyond anyones control.
We had a automobile accident at a tee intersection, the main road tangent to our main line.
Auto traffic had backed up from the intersection on to and across our crossing, and so far back from there as to make it impossible for the morons who stopped on the crossing to back up.
Add to that the fact that they had pulled up to the intersection side by side, trying to cut into line.
We came around a curve, looking at six autos stopped on the crossing, with no where for them to go.
We stopped, and waited. And waited, and waited.
Before you ask, no, we couldnt back up, the DS had run another grain train right up behind us, less than a mile, and backing up that mile wouldnt clear anything up. So along comes a HPD Sargent, who decides to give us a ticket for blocking the crossings over five minutes.
Now, he can see the reason we are stopped, and instead of going to the crossing and making the morons move, he decides to give me a ticket.
He demands my drivers license, which I refuse to give him, mostly because I dont have it with me, all I carry on duty is my switchmans license,(a lost wallet on a railroad is lost forever).
So now he is pretty hot, wants to arrest me for failing to produce my drivers license, even though such a license dosnt give me the right to operate a locomotive, and I am the conductor, not the engineer.
Buy the way, the law says you only have to have a drivers liecense if you are opperating a motorized vehicle on public property, its a license only, not a required ID, you dont have to carry it with you all the time.
But I am the guy in charge, and he refuses to accept my switchmans license,
and he decides I am going to jail for not giving him my drivers license.
We ended up calling our railroad cops, who brough a trainmaster with them, and after several minutes of very heated argument, it came down to the trainmaster accepting, as a agent of the carrier, a traffic ticket for blocking a public crossing.
Now, had the cop excersised the rule of common sense, he would have cleared the crossing so we could have moved, instead he decided to play macho super cop.
Common sense?
Uh Huh!
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[dharmon]

My "tirade" was not directed at this incident or at this or any crew. What I was saying that the RR (not the crew) should be liable for dispatching a crew if they cannot accompli***he task without violating crew day. If they could have reasonably accomplished the job in the timeframe, but because of unforseen circumsatnces can't, then prudence would dictate that they land at the nearest suitable airfield (in this case siding, yard, etc).....not in the middle of town, where there may exist a greater than average chance of causing a roadway to blocked, by the train itself or by gates.

Apparently the rules do not account for this, I presume to keep the RRs from abusing the crews.

Hey, I'm with you guys......I ain't the artist formerly known as Missouri

[dharmon]

My "tirade" was not directed at this incident or at this or any crew. What I was saying that the RR (not the crew) should be liable for dispatching a crew if they cannot accompli***he task without violating crew day. If they could have reasonably accomplished the job in the timeframe, but because of unforseen circumsatnces can't, then prudence would dictate that they land at the nearest suitable airfield (in this case siding, yard, etc).....not in the middle of town, where there may exist a greater than average chance of causing a roadway to blocked, by the train itself or by gates.

Apparently the rules do not account for this, I presume to keep the RRs from abusing the crews.

Hey, I'm with you guys......I ain't the artist formerly known as Missouri

[Mookie]

Skeets - my tiara is evidently hanging in the trains "Magee's Closet". It was a little gaudy anyway. But I still think the green was pretty. Think emeralds!

Going to go look at the thread you mentioned. And I think you are a little ornery like Da Mook is.... it is all good!

For the rest - I know we have an ordinance here in Lincoln - that a train shall not block the crossing for more than 10 min. Since the train runs right through the heart of the university parking and used to run through a lot of residentials, it was a good law. And the CBQ, BN and BNSF have been pretty good about observing it. There is a little overtime sometimes involved, but mostly, they get things moving out of the way. And if the engine wasn't blocking the crossing, why didn't someone open the gates? Were they so far out in the boonies, that no one from either maintenance or yard master - someone couldn't come out and lift the gates. If maintenance isn't closer than that, they have real problems in that town. My understanding is a key on the engine will do it. Can't the yardmaster do it?

Mookie

[Mookie]

Skeets - my tiara is evidently hanging in the trains "Magee's Closet". It was a little gaudy anyway. But I still think the green was pretty. Think emeralds!

Going to go look at the thread you mentioned. And I think you are a little ornery like Da Mook is.... it is all good!

For the rest - I know we have an ordinance here in Lincoln - that a train shall not block the crossing for more than 10 min. Since the train runs right through the heart of the university parking and used to run through a lot of residentials, it was a good law. And the CBQ, BN and BNSF have been pretty good about observing it. There is a little overtime sometimes involved, but mostly, they get things moving out of the way. And if the engine wasn't blocking the crossing, why didn't someone open the gates? Were they so far out in the boonies, that no one from either maintenance or yard master - someone couldn't come out and lift the gates. If maintenance isn't closer than that, they have real problems in that town. My understanding is a key on the engine will do it. Can't the yardmaster do it?

Mookie

[Anonymous]

It could be the engineer stopped a little long, over the crossing circuit. He doesn't want to back up over crossings behind him or pedestrians on the track if he can't see. There's no time to protect the rear, so he stays put. We aren't even supposed to use the radio after we have outlawed. That might be interpreted as "performing duty. If the police were directing traffic around him, he wasn't blocking emergency vehicles. And probably there weren't any Federals around, but just the same, YOU pay the fines if you knowingly violate the law. Help yourself...

[Anonymous]

It could be the engineer stopped a little long, over the crossing circuit. He doesn't want to back up over crossings behind him or pedestrians on the track if he can't see. There's no time to protect the rear, so he stays put. We aren't even supposed to use the radio after we have outlawed. That might be interpreted as "performing duty. If the police were directing traffic around him, he wasn't blocking emergency vehicles. And probably there weren't any Federals around, but just the same, YOU pay the fines if you knowingly violate the law. Help yourself...

[Modelcar]

...Understand all you have said and it is sensible.....Fact is, if a train is moving through a town or city and it must stop because of expired work time.....Anyone surely will agree, don't stop it across a crossing or even close enough to allow the gates to remain down to disrupt traffic, emergency or not...Clear the crossing.

[Modelcar]

...Understand all you have said and it is sensible.....Fact is, if a train is moving through a town or city and it must stop because of expired work time.....Anyone surely will agree, don't stop it across a crossing or even close enough to allow the gates to remain down to disrupt traffic, emergency or not...Clear the crossing.

[dehusman]

First off if you actually read the posts above about what actually happened, the train did not stop on the crossing. The train stopped on the crossing circuit so the lights and gate came on, but the train itself was not on the crossing. The police flagged the cars around the gates. No fire truck was blocked or would have been blocked. No ambulance was blocked or would have been blocked. There was no emergency. If the crew exceeds the hours of service to move the train, they could be fined personally by the FRA, and the railroad could be fined by the FRA and if a superior told them to move the train the superior could be fined personally by the FRA.

One cure would be to install motion sensing crossing equipment. The gates come down, the system "sees" the trains is not moving toward the crossing and after a minute or so lifts the gates. Another train shows up or the train starts moving toward the crossing, the gates come back down. All it takes is your state highway dept to ante up the bucks.

If the train stops the crew is supposed to try and stay off the crossings. If they can't and won't be moving soon, they are supposed to cut the crossing. A good crew will sometimes purposely block a crossing if its going to meet several trains in a row, just to keep people from crossing in front of it and being hit by a train on the other track.

If all else fails and the crew does reach their hours of service with a crossing blocked, Federal Law prohibits them from moving the train unless there is an immediate emergency. Period.

[dehusman]

First off if you actually read the posts above about what actually happened, the train did not stop on the crossing. The train stopped on the crossing circuit so the lights and gate came on, but the train itself was not on the crossing. The police flagged the cars around the gates. No fire truck was blocked or would have been blocked. No ambulance was blocked or would have been blocked. There was no emergency. If the crew exceeds the hours of service to move the train, they could be fined personally by the FRA, and the railroad could be fined by the FRA and if a superior told them to move the train the superior could be fined personally by the FRA.

One cure would be to install motion sensing crossing equipment. The gates come down, the system "sees" the trains is not moving toward the crossing and after a minute or so lifts the gates. Another train shows up or the train starts moving toward the crossing, the gates come back down. All it takes is your state highway dept to ante up the bucks.

If the train stops the crew is supposed to try and stay off the crossings. If they can't and won't be moving soon, they are supposed to cut the crossing. A good crew will sometimes purposely block a crossing if its going to meet several trains in a row, just to keep people from crossing in front of it and being hit by a train on the other track.

If all else fails and the crew does reach their hours of service with a crossing blocked, Federal Law prohibits them from moving the train unless there is an immediate emergency. Period.

[Modelcar]

.....Sounds like great logic to me Dan. Jen, there's that "common sense" clause again...See it's not dead. There is hope.

[Modelcar]

.....Sounds like great logic to me Dan. Jen, there's that "common sense" clause again...See it's not dead. There is hope.

[dharmon]

Okay, first I gotta put the disclaimer out there -- we all gotta live by the rules that are set down for your particular profession. Whatever the job, you got some rules, and you knew that goin' into it. You know how to work it and you know how to break it and get away with it. My book has a catchall statement that covers me to the effect of ".....no rule shall be interpreted such that it takes the place of good judgment..." I have had to exercise that clause a few times, and explain why in a particular situation I did X or Y with the taxpayers very expensive asset. But I made damn sure if I was going to use it, I could defend it.
Given the same example in aviation.......if I take off near the end of crew day for something other than "operational neccessity" (we don't go there unless someone's gonna get hurt) and I knowingly violate crew day, I'm screwed. Now if if take off and there is a reasonable expectation that I can conduct the mission (peacetime rules only here folks, you get your money's worth plus during the bad times) and return or get to my destination within 18 hours of my original brief time and for some reason in the flight I am delayed (weather, holding, malfunction) its cool, as long as there was a reasonable expectation I could do it.....not down to gnats &*^ (behind), and it was beyond my control.

If a train has to stop in the middle of a town because of crew day, then something's wrong with your system. Either you get to where you're going (within reason) or you fine the railroad not the crew for pushing it.

I AM NOT saying this crew did the wrong thing. Sounds like they thought they were clear,but weren't. It happens. I just think this system is messed up if there is no common sense clause. If I ran a railroad, and the choice was pull forward and make sure you are clear of all crossings and I' ll pay the fine should you get one for exceeding crew day or the possibility of having to pay out liability because someone died becaue a fire truck or ambulance couldn' t pass....I'd rather go to court over the crew day issue

Now as public servant, I say if you don't like what you get, vote to change it. as RR employees, if you don't like it, get us to vote to change it. I Railfan and I Vote....how's that for a bumper sticker?

Dan

[dharmon]

Okay, first I gotta put the disclaimer out there -- we all gotta live by the rules that are set down for your particular profession. Whatever the job, you got some rules, and you knew that goin' into it. You know how to work it and you know how to break it and get away with it. My book has a catchall statement that covers me to the effect of ".....no rule shall be interpreted such that it takes the place of good judgment..." I have had to exercise that clause a few times, and explain why in a particular situation I did X or Y with the taxpayers very expensive asset. But I made damn sure if I was going to use it, I could defend it.
Given the same example in aviation.......if I take off near the end of crew day for something other than "operational neccessity" (we don't go there unless someone's gonna get hurt) and I knowingly violate crew day, I'm screwed. Now if if take off and there is a reasonable expectation that I can conduct the mission (peacetime rules only here folks, you get your money's worth plus during the bad times) and return or get to my destination within 18 hours of my original brief time and for some reason in the flight I am delayed (weather, holding, malfunction) its cool, as long as there was a reasonable expectation I could do it.....not down to gnats &*^ (behind), and it was beyond my control.

If a train has to stop in the middle of a town because of crew day, then something's wrong with your system. Either you get to where you're going (within reason) or you fine the railroad not the crew for pushing it.

I AM NOT saying this crew did the wrong thing. Sounds like they thought they were clear,but weren't. It happens. I just think this system is messed up if there is no common sense clause. If I ran a railroad, and the choice was pull forward and make sure you are clear of all crossings and I' ll pay the fine should you get one for exceeding crew day or the possibility of having to pay out liability because someone died becaue a fire truck or ambulance couldn' t pass....I'd rather go to court over the crew day issue

Now as public servant, I say if you don't like what you get, vote to change it. as RR employees, if you don't like it, get us to vote to change it. I Railfan and I Vote....how's that for a bumper sticker?

Dan

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

Skeets, don't know where you are, but think you are just ornery enough to do this! So don't read this; don't want to give you any ideas!

Mookie

Want to see ornery, Ook? Check out the "Two trains running" thread down below. My story is TRUE, no porches there. BTW, what happened to your green stars? You likely over reached demanding a tiara too.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

Skeets, don't know where you are, but think you are just ornery enough to do this! So don't read this; don't want to give you any ideas!

Mookie

Want to see ornery, Ook? Check out the "Two trains running" thread down below. My story is TRUE, no porches there. BTW, what happened to your green stars? You likely over reached demanding a tiara too.

[Anonymous]

Madam DA Mook and all, it is a violation of the Federal Hours of Service Act for any train or engineman to exceed 12 hours on duty. If the emgineer wants to be a good guy and pull the locos up to clear the circuit, and a Fed inspector is watching, he can be fined up to $10,000; not the Company, but the engineer out of his own pocket! If the dispatcher orders the crew to pull up to clear in violation, the dispatcher can be fined up to yada yada. Hence, none of these guys are going to stick their necks out. Some years back, an engineer was called to work a baseball special after the game. He warned the boss he wouldn't make it, and he didn't. He outlawed halfway to his destination, and the train full of hot, tired ball fans sat there until a relief engineer was called out. That made the news, too. The engineer later received a letter from a Company VP exonerating him. I once was outlawing on a westbound. We were in the middle of nowhere, and I told the trainman that my watch showed we still had 3 minutes to work. We then pulled up to clear an important crossing in town where we walked up and bought a breakfast while waiting for the taxi. No, I didn't block the road. Probably, the guy in Pottstown should have stopped short of the road and waited there, notifying the DS he had no time. But I don't expect he is in any great trouble. And Mook...I'm not "ornery". Usually.

[Anonymous]

Madam DA Mook and all, it is a violation of the Federal Hours of Service Act for any train or engineman to exceed 12 hours on duty. If the emgineer wants to be a good guy and pull the locos up to clear the circuit, and a Fed inspector is watching, he can be fined up to $10,000; not the Company, but the engineer out of his own pocket! If the dispatcher orders the crew to pull up to clear in violation, the dispatcher can be fined up to yada yada. Hence, none of these guys are going to stick their necks out. Some years back, an engineer was called to work a baseball special after the game. He warned the boss he wouldn't make it, and he didn't. He outlawed halfway to his destination, and the train full of hot, tired ball fans sat there until a relief engineer was called out. That made the news, too. The engineer later received a letter from a Company VP exonerating him. I once was outlawing on a westbound. We were in the middle of nowhere, and I told the trainman that my watch showed we still had 3 minutes to work. We then pulled up to clear an important crossing in town where we walked up and bought a breakfast while waiting for the taxi. No, I didn't block the road. Probably, the guy in Pottstown should have stopped short of the road and waited there, notifying the DS he had no time. But I don't expect he is in any great trouble. And Mook...I'm not "ornery". Usually.

[Anonymous]

I LIVE OUTSIDE OF POTTSTOWN. DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT WHO RUNS AND WHEN TRAINS GO ON THE OLD COLBROOKDALE BRANCH LINE

[Anonymous]

I LIVE OUTSIDE OF POTTSTOWN. DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT WHO RUNS AND WHEN TRAINS GO ON THE OLD COLBROOKDALE BRANCH LINE

[Mookie]

C'mon people - I bet a lot of you know why the crossings are blocked. Also bet there is a little human influence not on the engine that is the problem. So give us the real scoop!

Mz Moo

[Mookie]

C'mon people - I bet a lot of you know why the crossings are blocked. Also bet there is a little human influence not on the engine that is the problem. So give us the real scoop!

Mz Moo

[Modelcar]

...In our fair city here of Muncie we have a problem with NS on a line running in from the northwest. Too often they block traffic and it is for some considerable time and it really causes traffic problems in our west side of town. I don't know what is the reason the train is stationary for sometimes an hour or more but it really causes problems. Police have been involved at times but I don't know of what results it has produced. Moving fire equipment is a concern when required to pass over the track and it is blocked making them go out of their way, etc....I don't know if it has anything to do with a "dead" crew in some of the traffic tieups but wheither it is that or not, it really creates a problem.

[Modelcar]

...In our fair city here of Muncie we have a problem with NS on a line running in from the northwest. Too often they block traffic and it is for some considerable time and it really causes traffic problems in our west side of town. I don't know what is the reason the train is stationary for sometimes an hour or more but it really causes problems. Police have been involved at times but I don't know of what results it has produced. Moving fire equipment is a concern when required to pass over the track and it is blocked making them go out of their way, etc....I don't know if it has anything to do with a "dead" crew in some of the traffic tieups but wheither it is that or not, it really creates a problem.

[dharmon]

I'm sure there is more to the story, I don't think a crew (conducter included) would abandon their train. But just as the pilot is the focal point for anything that happens on a plane or the captain on a ship, the engineer, as the driver becomes the focal point here. Right or wrong he is the representative of the RR at that moment. Did the police try to call the number on the crossing sign, we'll probably never know. I think we're (at least I was) pokin' fun at the situation, not an individual. Flight crews are equally rigid about manditory hours, however, when an unforseen instance arises that makes them go over, they can't park the plane...usually. I did not mean to offend REAL train dudes.