the crewless train

[Anonymous]

Way back in the days of Pacific Rail News (anybody remember them?), one of the RR editorial writers was predicting that the day of the "conductorless" freight train was not too far into the future.  I believe, but am not sure, that it is already possible to run a driverless light-rail train controlled by electricity.  With all of the new innovations in technology, how far away are we from a "crewless" train?  What stumbling blocks, if any, remain for such a train?  What would be the good points and bad points? (and on a side note, have any readers out there seen Ed Ripley's by-line on anything train-related? He would write for PRN regularly, but after their demise I haven't seen anything by him (I've tried to Google his name))

Riprap

[jimrice4449]

"Welcome pasengers to the Hi Speed Robotic Express.   Our system is the product of the finest design engineers and you may be assured of the utmost safety and convenience on our...utmost safety and convenience on our...utmost safety and convenience on our etc etc etc"

[greyhounds]

Way back in the days of Pacific Rail News (anybody remember them?), one of the RR editorial writers was predicting that the day of the "conductorless" freight train was not too far into the future.  I believe, but am not sure, that it is already possible to run a driverless light-rail train controlled by electricity.  With all of the new innovations in technology, how far away are we from a "crewless" train?  What stumbling blocks, if any, remain for such a train?  What would be the good points and bad points? (and on a side note, have any readers out there seen Ed Ripley's by-line on anything train-related? He would write for PRN regularly, but after their demise I haven't seen anything by him (I've tried to Google his name))

Riprap

Well the New York City subway has had a crewless operation for years. 

The Chicago rapid system is now one man.

Go to major airports like O'Hare, Atlanta, Las Vegas, Minneapolis-St. Paul and you'll find crewless operations.

[CrazyDiamond]

...and arn't the Lodon 'tube' trains driverless too?

The benefits would be numerous!

[tree68]

For trains such as subways and shuttles, "crewless" might work. The route is constant, the performance is predictable.  To call them totally crewless would be inaccurate, as even if there is no conductor or motorman/engineer, someone, somewhere is monitoring the operation, perhaps even with a video link to watch the action.

Mainline railroading, on the other hand, is likely miles from such an operation.  It's certainly not impossible, but it's not likely anytime soon.  Labor issues notwithstanding, there's a lot of lines of code to be written to introduce the ability to control trains of varying consists over track with a varying profile in a safe, consistent manner.  Mix up the traffic types, and you have a nightmare. As I said, it's not impossible, but it might be cheaper in the end to put humans on the trains...

 

[samfp1943]

Thousands of people each week ride computer operated trains at the Atlanta [Ga] Airport. Ditto also at Dallas-Ft.Worth [DFW]; and I am sure there are many other such applications around the country. With the applications of more accurate GPS systems, railroads might operate computer controlled trains. IF those trains were on ROW's that were COMPLETLY isolated from any other traffic or pedestrians. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Proven each day by trespassers on foot and in vehicles, at all types of uncontrolled and controlled grade crossings. In a real world sitguastion there are too many uncontrolled possibilities in train operation, let alon the mechanical malfunctions that can occur. A human presence [ responsible] is required. The suits will not allow too many potentially circumstances to go without a human presence [ to blame!  ]

[Hugh Jampton]

...and arn't the Lodon 'tube' trains driverless too? The benefits would be numerous!

Not really, only the Victoria and Central Lines have ATO (Automatic Train Operation), but they still retain the 'drivers' because when the systems were installed it was felt that the public wouldn't trust the systems. The 'drivers' job is to close the doors and to press two buttons simultaniously to start the system, which takes over the running of the train.

Docklands Light Railway also has ATO, but no driver. Instead they have a train captain whose job it is to close the doors. Once the doors are close the train trundles off of its own accord.

[Pathfinder]

SkyTrain in Vancouver BC has been crewless since it first came into operation in 1986.  Old technology now, I am just waiting to see it on mainline freight trains

[blhanel]

IF those trains were on ROW's that were COMPLETLY isolated from any other traffic or pedestrians.

Which is precisely the situation on the Black Mesa and Lake Powell in northern Arizona, which I seem to remember from an old Trains article that they tried to run remotely controlled trains for awhile.  I don't think it worked very well, though.

[JSGreen]

I seem to recall when the Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) in the SF/Oakland area was first built, it was capable of CREWLESS operation...but for saftey and public acceptance, it was decided to put people in the cabs....anyone else remember hearing something about that?  Or perhaps it was just too expensive to actually install...

[M636C]

IF those trains were on ROW's that were COMPLETLY isolated from any other traffic or pedestrians.

Which is precisely the situation on the Black Mesa and Lake Powell in northern Arizona, which I seem to remember from an old Trains article that they tried to run remotely controlled trains for awhile.  I don't think it worked very well, though.

There was another operation run by "American Electric Power" (I've forgotten the location) which used 50 kV locomotives built to the Pennsylvania E44 design but rated at 5000 HP. This too was listed as still in service in a fairly recent Trains magazine - possibly the "Lonely Railroads of the Four Corners" (if I recall the title correctly). These were romotely controlled originally, but as the open cut minre progressed, the line got shorter, and the automatic operation went away (I think).

M636C

[williamsb]

I believe when CN built it's line in northern Alberta to the Northwest territories in Canada in the early 1960's, it was built to run automatically. There were hardly any grade crossings. There were transponders? placed in the track and special GP9's painted yellow with black lettering were filled with radio controls in the short hood. I think these GP9's ran short hood forward which at the time was the opposite that CN ran. The trains were to speed up and slow down on there own. There were crew in the cabs though I don't know how many. Never heard very much about this though and it seemed to quietly faded away. Anyone else hear of this or can verify it?

 

Barry

[beaulieu]

IF those trains were on ROW's that were COMPLETLY isolated from any other traffic or pedestrians.

Which is precisely the situation on the Black Mesa and Lake Powell in northern Arizona, which I seem to remember from an old Trains article that they tried to run remotely controlled trains for awhile.  I don't think it worked very well, though.

There was another operation run by "American Electric Power" (I've forgotten the location) which used 50 kV locomotives built to the Pennsylvania E44 design but rated at 5000 HP. This too was listed as still in service in a fairly recent Trains magazine - possibly the "Lonely Railroads of the Four Corners" (if I recall the title correctly). These were romotely controlled originally, but as the open cut minre progressed, the line got shorter, and the automatic operation went away (I think).

M636C

This was the Muskigum Electric Railroad, in SE part of Ohio, like the others it was an isolated electric railroad hauling coal from a mine to a powerplant.

[Anonymous]

Many transit lines are crewless or virtually crewless already -- Washington Metro, for example, has a crewmember solely to open and close the doors, and to observe.  Train-running is 100% automated.  But that's a distant comparison to freight railroading at best, and while it's instructive to see what has worked and what hasn't in the transit field, it's neither a predictor nor a pattern for freight railroading.

Crewless operations are technically feasible right now.  Writing the code is challenging, yes, but if one is willing to make some front-end decisions on simplifying train makeup (e.g., actually adhere to already existing plans), the software isn't impossible.  Crewless operation is not practical, however, on anything other than a 100% private right-of-way fenced securely against people, animals larger than a rabbit, and anything else that could fall on the track, undermine the track, or block the track.  One-man observer-only operation is certainly practical right now, and would create a productivity improvement over two-man crews in many (but not all) applications.

S. Hadid

[Anonymous]

To perhaps regurgitate, most of the posts which explain a location where crewless trains have been possible, the common link is that all of them are without any grade crossings or contact (presumably) with pedestrians and the like.  You may remember that just a few years ago,  they finished the project down in LA where a triple track, dedicated freight line btw the Port of Long Beach and the rail yards of (then) SP, (then) SF and UP.  Once, let's say, a transcontinental RR develops, and achieves economies of scale that another RR might not, what's to keep them from (eventually) eliminating all grade crossings, putting a concrete wall around the whole shebang, then eliminating the crews?  Yes, of course, it would take time, but wouldn't that absolute cost be smaller than the absolute cost of paying labor to do its job?

Riprap

[Anonymous]

To perhaps regurgitate, most of the posts which explain a location where crewless trains have been possible, the common link is that all of them are without any grade crossings or contact (presumably) with pedestrians and the like.  You may remember that just a few years ago,  they finished the project down in LA where a triple track, dedicated freight line btw the Port of Long Beach and the rail yards of (then) SP, (then) SF and UP.  Once, let's say, a transcontinental RR develops, and achieves economies of scale that another RR might not, what's to keep them from (eventually) eliminating all grade crossings, putting a concrete wall around the whole shebang, then eliminating the crews?  Yes, of course, it would take time, but wouldn't that absolute cost be smaller than the absolute cost of paying labor to do its job?

Riprap

Well, perhaps someday.  Not in the forseeable future.  If it was feasible, it would be in progress or done already.  The improvements such as barriers and grade separation would easily exceed $1 million per mile.