CrazyDiamond wrote:How come my quotes never display right?
Not sure - there's all sorts of HTML junk showing, almost as if it's copying and pasting the whole web page into the reply when you hit the "quote" button - which web browser do you use ?
If you want to do it manually, put the word "quote" (without the ") inside square backets at the start of the text block you want to appear as a quote, and then "/quote" (without the ") inside square backets at the end of the block. Do the same thing using "url" to create hyperlinks.
Tony
(the quoted part of this message was created by hitting the 'quote' button instead of the 'reply' button)
Looks like you're using HTML tags instead of "forum code" tags. As was mentioned, the forum code uses the square brackets instead of the "less than" and "greater than" signs. Aside from that, many of the tags are similar in concept, if not syntax.
If you go back into your quoted post and make those replacements, you should see most everything turn out right.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
At low speeds your max braking rate will be limited by wheel slide. At high speed, wheel slide will also be a limiting factor, and the consequences of wheel slide are more severe. Also, it had generally been believed that adhesion goes down at high speed -- hence the original high-speed trains being MU -- but wheel slip control has modified that restriction, hence locomotives on high-speed trains. The main limiting factor at high speed then will be heat dissipation -- have you seen the pictures of those huge multi-rotor disks on TGV axles?
I like the example of the Boeing 777 landing distance. While the 777 has rubber tires and reverse thrust, the brakes on an airplane have stricter heat dissipation constraints as they have to be light so the airplane doesn't carry extra weight in flight. On the other hand, high maintenance is accepted in airline operations in terms of frequent replacement of brakes, and on some military aircraft with very high landing speeds -- B-58 Hustler, English Electric Lightning -- brakes that had to be replaced every few landings were accepted. But while the details of whether the jetliner actually compares with the TGV need more work, it gives a very good engineering ballpark estimate of what kind of stopping distance to expect.
The heavy braking for a TGV isn't just a matter of safety, it is also a matter of keeping the schedule. If you brake at too leisurely a pace, you spend less time at your high cruising speed and your overall trip time will increase. While they say jackrabbit starts and stops waste gas in your car, they do save some time -- the wild cab ride effect.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
According by latest Train Handling manual, air brakes are not to be used over 10 MPH (I think) except in an emergency.
Nick,
I have no idea what train handling manual you are talking about, but, go tell whoever wrote it they might as well shove it where the sun doesn't shine. TOTAL BS!!!
emergancy clamps all the brakes on as hard as it can to all the cars at exactly the same time
csx98,
You of all people should know that is not the way brakes work! If it did, you would be picking up brake beams and other assorted parts all over the place.
To the others,
All of this 2 -2 1/2 mile stopping distance is basically a bunch of hogwash thrown around a campfire at night. Sounds impressive, but that's all it is, a bunch of talk.
Grades will effect stopping distances as much as anything. Ascending grades will shorten and descending grades will lengthen stopping distances. Snow can really effect stopping distances, but that is out of the normal range of this conversation.
csx/98 is right about one thing, I can't stress enough how important the proper use of the "first service" brake application is! Let me say that one more time, I can't stress enough how important the proper use of the "first service" brake application is! The first service brake application takes all of the slack out of the brake mechanism putting the brake shoes against the wheels and getting them heated up. This effects any further applications to the point that one pound could make you or stop you.
.
Big Jim,
I mis-spoke, I should have said, the use of train air brake to control speed is discouraged. Throttle modulation, and dymanic braking are the preferred method of speed control.
And I really can't tell the Senior Road Foreman of Engines to shove it, and not find myself in an investigation. Especially, now that we have Mr. Tony "I want to fire everyone" Ingram and his cabul of rules facists over here, instead of over there.
You know the drill.
Nick
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
I should have said, the use of train air brake to control speed is discouraged.
I know what he is trying to say, but, written that way it is still pretty stupid. Being that you can't use but so many axles of D/B to begin with, how does he expect you to control the train going downhill when the D/B won't hold it?
TusSagBay wrote: Hello; I just returned from a trip to NE Kansas. While there I made a train watching stop at Perry and had the fortune of speaking with a UP Lineman working on a Grade Crossing. As we talked a Coal Drag passed and I asked about how fast it was going. He said 30 to 35. He went on to say that the max speed for coal trains was 39 mph explaining that a loaded 100 car coal train moving at 50mph will require 2 1/2 miles to stop. That astonished me and after thinking about I began to wonder if that might not be excessive. A friend directed me to a web site dealing with stopping distance but I'm unable to make heads or tails of it. Can anyone provide some imput? Thank You, TSB
Hello;
I just returned from a trip to NE Kansas. While there I made a train watching stop at Perry and had the fortune of speaking with a UP Lineman working on a Grade Crossing. As we talked a Coal Drag passed and I asked about how fast it was going. He said 30 to 35. He went on to say that the max speed for coal trains was 39 mph explaining that a loaded 100 car coal train moving at 50mph will require 2 1/2 miles to stop. That astonished me and after thinking about I began to wonder if that might not be excessive. A friend directed me to a web site dealing with stopping distance but I'm unable to make heads or tails of it. Can anyone provide some imput?
Thank You, TSB
Let me try. Contrary to popular opinion, the problem isn't the weight. The problem is that the maximum braking force the hopper car can generate is set so that the wheels don't slide when it's empty.
An analogy. If you are riding on a bike and you stop from 20 mph or so by dragging your feet, you can probably get stopped in pretty short order. But, try to stopping your car from 20 mph by dragging your feet.... Same braking force - much greater inertia, so much longer stopping distances.
If the weight difference between a loaded and empty frt car is not too great, then the difference between loaded and empty stopping distances isn't too great. The same goes if you are dealing with trains that have mixture of loads and empties. But with unit trains, the difference can be extreme and the push for greater loaded capacity and lower tare wts only makes matters worse.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
But you can fit load-sensitive brakes to get round the loaded/empty brake force problem (as described in the 'Empty/Load Sensors' section here http://www.railway-technical.com/brake2.html )
EOTs set the Brakes from the rear of the train rather than front to rear. This means shortens the stopping distance.
What would make you think that? Why would you think that a train going into emergency from the rear would stop any quicker than one going into emergency from the head end? Do you have any idea of the how much higher the percentage of breaking in two would be if the train went into emergency from the rear rather than the head end?
Have you ever operated an EOT? Do you have any idea how long it takes for them to react? I would imagine that you would think, as I at first did, that as soon as you flip the switch the rear of the train goes into emergency. That is not always the case.
The purpose of the EOT is not to put the train in emergency to stop any quicker, the purpose of the EOT is to put the train in emergency in case of a trainline blockage. In other words, in the name of safety.
BigJim wrote: I should have said, the use of train air brake to control speed is discouraged. I know what he is trying to say, but, written that way it is still pretty stupid. Being that you can't use but so many axles of D/B to begin with, how does he expect you to control the train going downhill when the D/B won't hold it?
Jim,
Don't you know....The D/B will always hold the train back. The company and the fine folks at General Electric say so. Seriously, most of our trains are sized so the D/B will hold them back. In the event, they don't, out comes the air.
We're suppose to intiate an emergency from both the head and rear at the same time. Well you can guess how often that works. And if we have a UDE, we're also suppose to intiate an emergency from the rear, to prevent the hind end from slamming into the head end.
owlsroost wrote: But you can fit load-sensitive brakes to get round the loaded/empty brake force problem (as described in the 'Empty/Load Sensors' section here http://www.railway-technical.com/brake2.html ) Tony
...you can, but it's not common practice. Big trouble when they stick in the "load" postion and the car is empty!
Deacon wrote:Be for I retired From the BNSF as a engineer (40yrs)I was running coal trains with DP power Creston Ia. to Galesburg,Il and we ran these trains 50mph. They were 130 car trains at 18,000 ton and at 50mph in emergency it would take about 3/4---1mi. to stop.
Ah, finally, another voice of lots of experience.
Sounds about right to me (although I never ran them loaded over 40mph on my district).
Because the EOT/HTD system is an emergency means to stop a train, I know this because I work for the RR and have for 29yrs as a Carman/AirRunner, I calibrate, prepare the system to be applied to the trains, work on, and test the system.
Sure, you may think you know it all but you don't know why the system was designed, or the story behind their being invented do you.
Your right about the EOT is used to stop the rear from slamming into the front part, I don't work as a Engineer nor a Conductor, but I know my EOTs
BigJim wrote:According by latest Train Handling manual, air brakes are not to be used over 10 MPH (I think) except in an emergency. Nick, I have no idea what train handling manual you are talking about, but, go tell whoever wrote it they might as well shove it where the sun doesn't shine. TOTAL BS!!! emergancy clamps all the brakes on as hard as it can to all the cars at exactly the same time Sounds like something out of Nick's train handling book! csx98, You of all people should know that is not the way brakes work! If it did, you would be picking up brake beams and other assorted parts all over the place. To the others, All of this 2 -2 1/2 mile stopping distance is basically a bunch of hogwash thrown around a campfire at night. Sounds impressive, but that's all it is, a bunch of talk. Grades will effect stopping distances as much as anything. Ascending grades will shorten and descending grades will lengthen stopping distances. Snow can really effect stopping distances, but that is out of the normal range of this conversation. csx/98 is right about one thing, I can't stress enough how important the proper use of the "first service" brake application is! Let me say that one more time, I can't stress enough how important the proper use of the "first service" brake application is! The first service brake application takes all of the slack out of the brake mechanism putting the brake shoes against the wheels and getting them heated up. This effects any further applications to the point that one pound could make you or stop you.
the story behind their being invented do you.
Yeah I do, since they did away with the cabs, the conductors arms aren't long enough to reach back to the rear and open the anglecock.
has been a few years since i was at hoghead high..i mean engineers school
Yeah, but you are in graduate school every day.
nbrodar wrote: Full service, and emergency braking are bad ways to stop a train at speed. While it probably won't put anything on the ground, it's a great way to snap a knuckle or pull a drawhead. According by latest Train Handling manual, air brakes are not to be used over 10 MPH (I think) except in an emergency. Speed is to be regulated with throttle modulation, and dynamic braking. DPUs may reduce the stopping distance, depending on the company's operating practices. There are limits to the number of axles used for dynamic braking. Improperly used dynamics will tear a train apart in seconds. Nick
Full service, and emergency braking are bad ways to stop a train at speed. While it probably won't put anything on the ground, it's a great way to snap a knuckle or pull a drawhead. According by latest Train Handling manual, air brakes are not to be used over 10 MPH (I think) except in an emergency. Speed is to be regulated with throttle modulation, and dynamic braking.
DPUs may reduce the stopping distance, depending on the company's operating practices. There are limits to the number of axles used for dynamic braking. Improperly used dynamics will tear a train apart in seconds.
you wrote that full service and emergency braking are bad ways to stop a train at speed. I dont see where you get your info. In some cases this is the only way to stop a train period. throttle modulation only works in limited situations and if you can get a drawbar on a brake application it was going to break anyways. these parts will not just snap apart. but regardless of air brakes do's and dont's what i really want to know is how in the heck do you tear a train apart with dynamic brakes? i Really like to know the answer to this one.
BigJim wrote: EOTs set the Brakes from the rear of the train rather than front to rear. This means shortens the stopping distance. What would make you think that? Why would you think that a train going into emergency from the rear would stop any quicker than one going into emergency from the head end? Do you have any idea of the how much higher the percentage of breaking in two would be if the train went into emergency from the rear rather than the head end? Have you ever operated an EOT? Do you have any idea how long it takes for them to react? I would imagine that you would think, as I at first did, that as soon as you flip the switch the rear of the train goes into emergency. That is not always the case. The purpose of the EOT is not to put the train in emergency to stop any quicker, the purpose of the EOT is to put the train in emergency in case of a trainline blockage. In other words, in the name of safety.
I remember the FRA quoting a derailment / runaway on Cajon pass as an example for 2 way EOT's . If I remember correctly a stack train ( perhaps more than one ) desending the grade kinked an airhose and cause the train to runaway through a populated part of Bakersfield. Apparently when the slack came in , the hoses bunched.
That example was used in the FRA ruling requiring thier use.
Randy
railroad_artist wrote: Nick Your right about the EOT is used to stop the rear from slamming into the front part, I don't work as a Engineer nor a Conductor, but I know my EOTs
you are right and i dont know why everyone is against you. the EOT activated at the right time will keep the rear from running into the head end. Just like you say. and then when the conductor walks back to the rear of the cut. closes the train line then proceeds to fix the damage caused by ripping the train apart from the rear then you go on your way. 2 or three times of this in a trip and you will get all your overtime and a few days ( months) off. plus a very mad conductor. they dont like being woke up from the nap they was taking to go fix things.
On the exCNW lines equipped with Automatic Train Control, we do a lot of stopping without the "first service" application. Our ATC is a two aspect system. You have either a Clear or a Restricting cab signal. When the cab signal goes to Restricting above 40 MPH, you have 6 seconds to go to "suppression" before you get a penalty brake application. Below 40, you have 70 seconds to get under 23 MPH.
On the lines that have been equipped with CTC and wayside signals, now you might have some warning that you will get train control. On the remaining portions without wayside signals, your first indication is the cab signal dropping out and getting the high speed whistle.
If I know, or suspect, that I will be getting train control, I try to get slowed down so as not to have to go to suppression. Whenever we go to suppression, we have to come to a stop before releasing the brakes. If I see a signal that will give me train control, I'll set first service and follow thru to get slowed down. Even if I can't get below where I need to be, at least I have a brake application already started.
Jeff
jeffhergert wrote: On the exCNW lines equipped with Automatic Train Control, we do a lot of stopping without the "first service" application. Our ATC is a two aspect system. You have either a Clear or a Restricting cab signal. When the cab signal goes to Restricting above 40 MPH, you have 6 seconds to go to "suppression" before you get a penalty brake application. Below 40, you have 70 seconds to get under 23 MPH. On the lines that have been equipped with CTC and wayside signals, now you might have some warning that you will get train control. On the remaining portions without wayside signals, your first indication is the cab signal dropping out and getting the high speed whistle. If I know, or suspect, that I will be getting train control, I try to get slowed down so as not to have to go to suppression. Whenever we go to suppression, we have to come to a stop before releasing the brakes. If I see a signal that will give me train control, I'll set first service and follow thru to get slowed down. Even if I can't get below where I need to be, at least I have a brake application already started. Jeff
Jeff, I witnessed something a couple of weeks ago from the ped bridge near the power plant- westbound was coming up on a flashing orange, started to slow down, and then he actually stopped with his consist blocking the C St. crossing, after which he immediately got it going again, albeit slowly- is what you described apparently what happened to him?
Another aside to this- witnessed two young Darwin award wannabes in baseball uniforms- ran out across the EB main to touch the above train as he started to roll... no idea where their parents were.
Brian (IA) http://blhanel.rrpicturearchives.net.
Our ATC is a two aspect system. You have either a Clear or a Restricting cab signal. When the cab signal goes to Restricting above 40 MPH, you have 6 seconds to go to "suppression" before you get a penalty brake application.
Isn't that kind of like having a clear signal go red in your face? What a way to run a RR!
I remember the FRA quoting a derailment / runaway on Cajon pass as an example for 2 way EOT's . If I remember correctly a stack train ( perhaps more than one ) desending the grade kinked an airhose and cause the train to runaway through a populated part of Bakersfield. Apparently when the slack came in , the hoses bunched. That example was used in the FRA ruling requiring thier use.
Randy,
I wonder if railroad [I know my EOTS] artist knows this?
wabash1 wrote: railroad_artist wrote: Nick Your right about the EOT is used to stop the rear from slamming into the front part, I don't work as a Engineer nor a Conductor, but I know my EOTs you are right and i dont know why everyone is against you. the EOT activated at the right time will keep the rear from running into the head end. Just like you say. and then when the conductor walks back to the rear of the cut. closes the train line then proceeds to fix the damage caused by ripping the train apart from the rear then you go on your way. 2 or three times of this in a trip and you will get all your overtime and a few days ( months) off. plus a very mad conductor. they dont like being woke up from the nap they was taking to go fix things.
There is a right and a wrong time to dump the rear , for example if I had a bunch of emptys on the rear and loads up front , I would think twice about dumping the EOT . Seems to me a good way to get a knuckle on the power. Loads on the rear ...yep .. dump the EOT , mixed train, yes , dump the rear , your taking your chances dumping them either way . I would do my best to remember the old saying that there are two ways to run a train , streched , or bunched . I would use independent to hold the front end in the best I could keeping them bunched if possible . I try to know where my slack is even if I dump them .
BigJim wrote: Our ATC is a two aspect system. You have either a Clear or a Restricting cab signal. When the cab signal goes to Restricting above 40 MPH, you have 6 seconds to go to "suppression" before you get a penalty brake application. Isn't that kind of like having a clear signal go red in your face? What a way to run a RR! The purpose of the EOT is not to put the train in emergency to stop any quicker, the purpose of the EOT is to put the train in emergency in case of a trainline blockage. In other words, in the name of safety.I remember the FRA quoting a derailment / runaway on Cajon pass as an example for 2 way EOT's . If I remember correctly a stack train ( perhaps more than one ) desending the grade kinked an airhose and cause the train to runaway through a populated part of Bakersfield. Apparently when the slack came in , the hoses bunched. That example was used in the FRA ruling requiring thier use. OR, as happened to me the other day (TAKE NOTE, 'cause this is why you go to graduate school EVERY DAY!), an anglecock wiggles closed! Randy, I wonder if railroad [I know my EOTS] artist knows this?
On a TOFC car car of some type ( something with the angle **** mounted sideways) ?
angle weenie ?
Randy Stahl wrote: BigJim wrote: EOTs set the Brakes from the rear of the train rather than front to rear. This means shortens the stopping distance. What would make you think that? Why would you think that a train going into emergency from the rear would stop any quicker than one going into emergency from the head end? Do you have any idea of the how much higher the percentage of breaking in two would be if the train went into emergency from the rear rather than the head end? Have you ever operated an EOT? Do you have any idea how long it takes for them to react? I would imagine that you would think, as I at first did, that as soon as you flip the switch the rear of the train goes into emergency. That is not always the case. The purpose of the EOT is not to put the train in emergency to stop any quicker, the purpose of the EOT is to put the train in emergency in case of a trainline blockage. In other words, in the name of safety. I remember the FRA quoting a derailment / runaway on Cajon pass as an example for 2 way EOT's . If I remember correctly a stack train ( perhaps more than one ) desending the grade kinked an airhose and cause the train to runaway through a populated part of Bakersfield. Apparently when the slack came in , the hoses bunched. That example was used in the FRA ruling requiring thier use. Randy
The Cajon runnaway was not a kinked airhose. It was a closed anglecock about 20 cars back in a manifest that was like 80-90 cars long. By the time the crew realized what was happening it was too late. The 20 cars worth of brakes could not hold the train on the 3.0% grade. The train only made it about 4 miles and didn't make the curve after the I-15 underpass. The wreck killed the crew and the resulting toxic fire was bad enough that the whole pass was shut down for 3 days (138-15-and the railroads). This train would not have run away if it was equiped with a 2-way EOT. Because of this wreck the FRA requires 2-way EOTs on major grades. The railroad claimed that the anglecock was closed by someone that tampered with the train at Summit. As a result the security fence was installed and security hired to watch the trains at summit. I think it's highly unlikely the train was tampered with at Summit. I think that is just a scapegoat story to cover up employee error in Barstow.
Who put the burr in your saddle, I know what Dynamic Brakes are, and how they work, I worked in the backshop doing the work you all gave away. Moving Locomotives in the shop area. I also know the Trainmen lost alot of jobs when they did away with the Cabooses, but those aren't the reason to jump in everyone's %#@* and are you still workin? You don't have to call people names.
Big Jim wrote: "I know what he is trying to say, but,written that way it is pretty stupid."
blhanel wrote: jeffhergert wrote: On the exCNW lines equipped with Automatic Train Control, we do a lot of stopping without the "first service" application. Our ATC is a two aspect system. You have either a Clear or a Restricting cab signal. When the cab signal goes to Restricting above 40 MPH, you have 6 seconds to go to "suppression" before you get a penalty brake application. Below 40, you have 70 seconds to get under 23 MPH. On the lines that have been equipped with CTC and wayside signals, now you might have some warning that you will get train control. On the remaining portions without wayside signals, your first indication is the cab signal dropping out and getting the high speed whistle. If I know, or suspect, that I will be getting train control, I try to get slowed down so as not to have to go to suppression. Whenever we go to suppression, we have to come to a stop before releasing the brakes. If I see a signal that will give me train control, I'll set first service and follow thru to get slowed down. Even if I can't get below where I need to be, at least I have a brake application already started. Jeff Jeff, I witnessed something a couple of weeks ago from the ped bridge near the power plant- westbound was coming up on a flashing orange, started to slow down, and then he actually stopped with his consist blocking the C St. crossing, after which he immediately got it going again, albeit slowly- is what you described apparently what happened to him? Another aside to this- witnessed two young Darwin award wannabes in baseball uniforms- ran out across the EB main to touch the above train as he started to roll... no idea where their parents were.
From what you describe, it sounds like very well could have gotten train control either above 40, or weren't under 23 in time. Some times you get spots of "dead" track, especially when raining or after rains that will drop out the cab signal. We call that "rain control." Every so often I'll go by a clear wayside signal and have dead track thru the entire block.
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