Well in Britain about 200 locos were stored in a scrapyard in Barry, S. Wales for in some cases nearly 40 years but many of those have been restored.
Of course not all locos from Barry have yet to run and some end up being canabilised to keep sisters of the same class running. The sea air encouraged corrosion
The most extreme example was perhaps the unique ex-British Rail class 8 4-6-2 "Duke of Gloucester" which was minus 2 out 3 cylinders. (one of its cylinders had been removed for display in the Science Museum in London).
Has anyone undertaken a study of these engines. I know with one of the unrestored ex-Barry scrapyard locos now on display at the Vale of Glamorgan Railway centre, Barry, I gather the boiler inspector was able to tell that it had a new firebox not long before withdrawl and in his opinion would be the first of the 10 locos they have from the yard to be restored.
Here's how I look at it . You are going to spend close to a million dollars restoring one of those engines . The last time I saw them (5-6 years ago) they were in barely salvageable condition. What is your suggested buisness plan to operate this thing ? Don't take for granted that you will be able to find affordable passenger cars, in fact you will pay a premium for anything that's in good shape . For a ten car train plan on spending 2.5 million dollars. Consider 150 K plus for insurance per year , I think the requirement is 30 million in coverage. Think about advertising , running agreements facilitys, employees and fuel , I would say your talking in in the area of 5-8 million dollars ...... I'm game !! Gimme the $$$$$$$$
Randy
Tulyar15 wrote:Well in Britain about 200 locos were stored in a scrapyard in Barry, S. Wales for in some cases nearly 40 years but many of those have been restored. Of course not all locos from Barry have yet to run and some end up being canabilised to keep sisters of the same class running. The sea air encouraged corrosion The most extreme example was perhaps the unique ex-British Rail class 8 4-6-2 "Duke of Gloucester" which was minus 2 out 3 cylinders. (one of its cylinders had been removed for display in the Science Museum in London). Has anyone undertaken a study of these engines. I know with one of the unrestored ex-Barry scrapyard locos now on display at the Vale of Glamorgan Railway centre, Barry, I gather the boiler inspector was able to tell that it had a new firebox not long before withdrawl and in his opinion would be the first of the 10 locos they have from the yard to be restored.
Cosmetic, static displays for Historical Societies and Musuems that missed out on U.S.A. and Canada steam locomotives decades ago is one place to put them.
There could be a tie in with the series Thomas The Tank Engine.
Consider one of those possiblities.
Andrew
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pmsteamman wrote:Last I heard these locos had been stripped of most of the apliances (injectors, brake valves, etc) and had no tenders. If somebody can scratchbuild one in 12inch ( sorry to you on the other side of the pond but I only know inches and pounds)to the foot more power to them. .
Some of the guys who've restored locos from Barry scrapyard have had to build new tenders from scratch, as quite a few locos there, especially the Bulleid Pacifics were without tenders. (In the case of "Duke of Gloucester" they just pinched a tender from a BR 9F 2-10-0, but now the guys who are restoring the 9F have got to build a new tender!).
Mind you, it's amazing just where tenders, or their chassis can turn up. A nearby steelworks to Barry used tender chassis as flat cars. One or two survived in use on British Rail as snow ploughs but I dont think there's any of those left. The Keighley & Worth Railway even found a tender from a WW2 British Army 2-10-0 at a steelworks in Holland. Some of these locos wound up there but the Dutch Railways got rid of steam about 1955 so this was quite a find.
As we've discussed on the British Railways thread preservation is very different in our respective countries.
Perhaps we can sum it up by saying that in North America they preserve, and here we restore.
There is'nt the interest, or the ability to return more than an handful of locos to operable condition in the US and, as Hugh says, there's nowhere to run them if you did.
I've visited several US Railroad museums over the years. There are no shortage of preserved steam locos but virtually all are excellent cosmetic preservations only, with not a prospect of ever steaming again.
Having said that, cosmetic restoration is relatively easy and it would be a shame if the N&W survivors did'nt at least get plinthed somewhere.
Hugh Jampton wrote:Three reasons spring to mind.1> Staem finished 10 years earlier in North America than it did here. There's no expertise, or very little of it. The people I know in the UK who have more than a couple years steam experience are all over 70, and some of them ain't in the best of health.2> Where you gonna run them? There isn't many preserved lines in the US, the Class 1s don't want them on their tracks (unless it's part of their own steam program).3> Public liability and other 'legal' issues.. Ask Gabe.4> Any american steam loco has been sitting around for those extra 10 years, and it has probably covered a lot more miles than any in the UK. Look at the current UK steam roster, specifically, build date, retirement from BR and mileage. I'd wager that most steam running in the UK only ran 10- 15 yeas on BR. Sorry, that's 4 reasons.
I think you hit the nail on the head. I don't think there is any absence of will power in America to restore steam. Just look what happened in the 80s when you had places to run them--America seemed to be spontaneously generating steam locomotives.
The problem is why go through such an incredible effort when there is no place to run them and it costs more to insure your trip than it does to rebuild them?It is a sad state of affairs. Darn lawyers . . . . .
Too bad there is no steam lobby in Congress. This problem could be largely avoided by Congressional legislation.
Gabe
pmsteamman wrote:Gabe, I think YOU hit the nail on the head. The insurance ordeal is what is killing steam in North America. I am not that old (31) but I can remember going on a steam excursion on a class 1 EVERY summer, now if I want to do that I have one railroad to choose from, UP. The Ohio Central,( a steam heaven for us in Ohio) just stopped running them after the NRHS convention. All because of a sue happy public. Maybe if we want to see steam run we have to get on a plane and go the UK.
It is really more complex than the "sue-happy public." As an attorney, I can assure you that the nature or per-capita frequency of lawsuits hasn't really changed since the 80s. If anything Tort Reform has scaled things back slightly. Moreover, do you think UP is less risk adverse than the other main-line carriers?
The CSX-Amtrack derailment in the buyou did change things somewhat, but what it changed was the insurance agencies' outlook on things. I do not know how reasonable this change was, as this accident was fairly unique. Moreover, I wonder how much the barge operator, as opposed to the railroad, took the liability bath in that one?
Congress needs to pass a limitation of liability bill for rail excursions. The thought of "the big one" i.e. a $300,000,000 + liability is really what scares away railroads and insurance companies. But, then again, the Congressional bill would have to be litigated, leading to more expenses and uncertainties.
There seems to be plenty of Dinner Train operations in the US, using first and second generation diesel traction.
Would these not be a candidate for haulage by rehabilitated steam? Surely the bugbear of public liability insurance is predicated on the operation itself rather than the traction, or am I wrong?
I have to say that the Dinner Train concept is somewhat alien to us Europeans, possibly because rail travel in Europe is a commonplace rather than a novelty.
Is it the case that the patrons of these services ride them with little or no interest in their motive power? One would have thought that a Dinner Train with the added attraction of steam haulage would be a sufficient draw to offset the inconvenience and expense of steam operation. Or am I wrong again?
As an active UK preservationist the difference between US and UK practice fascinates me. Rail preservation is very big here, but there are very few preserved railways without at least one operational steam engine. Steam is a massive attraction for the general public or the casual enthusiast. I can't imagine a railway without a steam loco attracting an awful lot of business.
Simon Reed wrote: I have to say that the Dinner Train concept is somewhat alien to us Europeans, possibly because rail travel in Europe is a commonplace rather than a novelty.
Really? What about the Orient Express, and the numerous dining trains that preserved lines in Britain run. These are a very valuable source of extra revenue to many lines. I'm a volunteer on the Avon Valley Railway (www.avonvalleyrailway.org) and most of our remaining dinning trains for this year are already sold out.
Meanwhile, getting back on topic, we've reluctantly decided to sell our LMS 8F 2-8-0 which has only had minimal work done on it since it arrived from Barry scrapyard.
Tulyar - the US Dining Train bears no relation to our Orient Express type operations, or a food service within a scheduled day on a preserved line.
It's a "one - off" operation, usually on a secondary route, not necessarily with any commendable scenery and held, as far as I can ascertain, for the sole purpose of allowing it's customers the experience of eating on a train.
There is not the nostalgia or luxury factor offered with the Orient Express et al, and they are often not offered as a facet of a broader preservation movement but as a solely commercial venture.
Hence my intrigue; they're a sort of linear Brewers' Fayre I think...
Beachy Head - Many of the steam locos cosmetically restored at, for instance, the B&O museum, the museum at Green Bay, the C of G museum in Savannah etc. appear to be largely complete in terms of components. I don't think the condition, or the necessary machine work and fabrication, are factors.
rrandb wrote:I think the biggest drawback to any restoration project is to find an individual or orginization willing to sponsor the huge amount of money and time nessesary to complete such an endevor. Not just to complete the restoration but to continue to maintain said engine. Ask the men who currently posses restored mainline steam and the will tell you they own a large hole they poor money in only to see them sit most days of the year.There is a FEC 0-6-0 currently being restored by a group of people who are passionate about all things FEC. They have no sponsor with deep pockets and there project will take years. They do have a place to run it though not at main line speeds or for very far. You need to have both unwavering passion and plenty of resources to tackle a project like this in America. It is also important that any engine selected for restoration be evaluated on its merit for restoration not who just originaly operated it The engines that have been restored were the result of extensive research and investigation that made them viable canidates..The N& W loco's are saddly where they probably belong. They had a history of squeesing every last mile from them before they went to the dead line.The real question is why they were not cut up long ago. Do not get me wrong. I would love to see them once again in steam but they stand the same chance as a snowball in that very warm place.
As I stated before the locomotives in Roanoke are barely salvageable. A new boiler can be had for $300,000.00 , possibly less if you are going to do more than one. I believe the 1385 is getting a new boiler or at least they found a builder and got some quotes.
I know of a scenic railroad that would operate a steam locomotive. I have a locomotive in mind , I don't have a half a million dollars !! And THAT"S just to get the locomotive rebuilt . Like I said , get me 8-10 million dollars and we'll make a go of it .
One other thought: Britain's population is much denser than that of the U.S.: 246 people per square kilometer, versus 31 per square kilometer. Assuming a normal distribution of experts and skills, it's a lot harder to bring the experts together, assuming you can find them - the whole of the UK is only a little bigger than the state of Virginia, area-wise.
Incidentally, there is an N&W 4-8-0 in operation - M class #475 is preserved on the Strasburg Railroad in Pennsylvania.
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