CSX bridge painting fans out there (AntiGates), here goes the city of Covington Ky. again.

[solzrules]

Call me crazy but... Here in Milwaukee people pay hundreds of thousands (and in some cases millions) of dollars to buy condos in old warehouses where the interior is completely remodeled but the exterior still has an avertisement for the 1935 Sears catalogue painted on it. I guess I live in a city where rust is celibrated rather than shunned. In fact a condo that just opened in the Third Ward actually used a nearby rusting railroad bridge (CNW's Milwaukee River Bridge) as a selling point about the historic nature of the location. I don't believe there has been a single railroad bridge painted here in years, at least not one that I've seen. It seems to me (as an avowed city-dweller with all the bias that comes with) that small towns need some minor crisis or fight from time to time to keep from getting bored. Pretty much every suburb and small town around here has been in the local news (usually burried on about page 4 of the b-section of the paper) at some point for things ranging from the innane (Falls not wishing to build a new pool because they feared Milwaukee residents would come to use it if it was too nice) to the just dumb (Elm Grove asking the Canadian Pacific if they could please stop using the former Milwaukee Road mainline at night because it wakes people up.) I believe that some small towns begin to think themselves far more importaint than they really are. CSX's income probably eclipses the GDP of that entire town, and they probably pay more in federal taxes than that town's entire budget. So when CSX got the inital order to paint or pay $5000, they probably just had a guy whip out a calculator and then do whichever was cheaper without giving it a thought. But in the town's case, at least the entire Trains community now knows it's name, and that's decient publicity. Cheers! ~METRO

METRO -

Did Elm Grove actually request that the CPRail not use the line at night?  That's a new one to me.  I guess maybe they should just shut down the world at night too then, huh?

I've found the market for these renovated industrial condos downtown to be remarkable.  I don't know who is buying these but they are selling like hotcakes and they can't rennovate them fast enough.  I guess it is a great way to maintain the historical nature of some of these buildings (the Blatz brewery on Milwaukee St. is a great example) without leveling everything. 

One more thing.  Do you know if they actually use that CNW Milwaukee River bridge or is it just rusting away to nothing?  I have never seen a train on those tracks and I am down in that area all the time. 

[CShaveRR]

I'm not going to get into the argument of whether paint preserves or enhances a bridge's structural integrity, or the fact that AntiGates "cheated" on his picture of the Lafayette bridges.  But, as I pointed out, that seems to be indicative of CSX's attitude about everything, including the things that are important--roadbed and rolling stock.  The weed-grown main line with mud coming up between the ties and spattering over the rails may not be as ugly as a rusty bridge, but you can bet its negligence is going to cost the railroad a lot more in the long run--whether in terms of slow orders that tie up the operation and p**s off employees and customers alike, or a derailment (same results, and probably even more dire circumstances), or a "blitz" that shuts the line down for an extended period of time.  In the past thirty years or so, I was on the old C&O main line many times via Amtrak.  So I've literally felt that line go downhill.  It's been going on far too long to blame it on Amtrak's SDP40Fs any more!  And, having seen plenty of everybody's equipment, I can say with conviction that CSX's coal cars are the only ones I've seen with straw stuffed in various holes to keep the coal inside!

[BaltACD]

That is why the railroads should use Cor-Ten steel for the bridges.  Never needs painting.

 

Bert

Cor-Ten's protection is it's 'rust'.  When it comes to color, Cor-Ten's only choice is Rust Brown.

[METRO]

So I talked to a few of my architect and architecture student friends and...

It depends upon the type of steel used in construction as to weather or not it needs painting to protect it from failure. Some types of steel are designed to quickly have a layer of surface rust form thereby protecting the steel from developing structural rust. Some types of steel, stainless for example, do not need paint at all to protect it.

Also remember, these bridges are designed to last many many years under absolutely incredible pressures (many were designed to carry very heavy steam engines) and a little bit of surface rust is going to do absolutely nothing to compromise the integrity of the bridge.

Repainting is a high mantainance and expensive way to protect industrial steel, especially in certain climates where repainting would be needed often. As such it is far cheaper to just replace any parts as soon as any structural rust or corrosion forms.

Also, if CSX is forced to repaint this bridge for purely cosmetic reasons, dozens of other small towns will demand the same, costing the railroads quite a bit of money that would otherwise go to other maintainance or to profit.

Cheers!
~METRO

[Modelcar]

....I think it is foolish to maintain that a steel structure should not be painted to protect it from the elements.  Especially if it has a heavy duty job to do and is needed to last for decades and decades...

I'm fully aware some RR co's probably have had difficult times affording the cost to keep the structures painted.  Perhaps they would have if they would have had the money to do so....Perhaps there are some whom would have not spend the money to do the painting even if they could have afforded it....

So I suppose we would have to assume some co's did the job better than others and I believe the evidence tells us that is still true....

For sure, a nicely maintained {painted}, structure sure makes a better appearance for it's surroundings than to not be....

[edbenton]

I am going to go about this a different way here in my town is a viaduct that crosses over the former Transcon and due to the fact that it was not maintained the way it should have been it now is in need of being replaced severly.  It is also made of Core-ten steel on the undeside and sides also and was kept painted but still has corroded.  The simple fact of the matter is steel regardless of what ever style it is made of rust is the enemy.   Yes there are some that resist rust better but put a 15000 ton train across them multiple times a day and they will corrode and start to break down even more.  The viaduct in question can not even support an Ambulance anymore and if there is a need for one at 3 separate nuring or high rise facialties here there is no way for them to get there anymore til the train passes adding time and maybe costing lives in the process.  Think of that next time you say oh that bridge does not need to be painted.

[METRO]

Call me crazy but...

Here in Milwaukee people pay hundreds of thousands (and in some cases millions) of dollars to buy condos in old warehouses where the interior is completely remodeled but the exterior still has an avertisement for the 1935 Sears catalogue painted on it. I guess I live in a city where rust is celibrated rather than shunned.

In fact a condo that just opened in the Third Ward actually used a nearby rusting railroad bridge (CNW's Milwaukee River Bridge) as a selling point about the historic nature of the location.

I don't believe there has been a single railroad bridge painted here in years, at least not one that I've seen.

It seems to me (as an avowed city-dweller with all the bias that comes with) that small towns need some minor crisis or fight from time to time to keep from getting bored. Pretty much every suburb and small town around here has been in the local news (usually burried on about page 4 of the b-section of the paper) at some point for things ranging from the innane (Falls not wishing to build a new pool because they feared Milwaukee residents would come to use it if it was too nice) to the just dumb (Elm Grove asking the Canadian Pacific if they could please stop using the former Milwaukee Road mainline at night because it wakes people up.)

I believe that some small towns begin to think themselves far more importaint than they really are. CSX's income probably eclipses the GDP of that entire town, and they probably pay more in federal taxes than that town's entire budget. So when CSX got the inital order to paint or pay $5000, they probably just had a guy whip out a calculator and then do whichever was cheaper without giving it a thought.

But in the town's case, at least the entire Trains community now knows it's name, and that's decient publicity.

Cheers!
~METRO

[Murphy Siding]

Just my opinion, but I believe some people make the mistake of over romanticising these issues.

This is not a conflict between a railroad and a city government, both of those parties are just bit actors and middle men representing the real principals  involved.

Greedy stockholders who's profit motive will take a back seat to nothing, sacrificing long term viability in exchange for short term gains, even if it means some poor suckers are stuck seeing their property values take a hit as the neighborhood saddled with the decaying infastructure  is forced to stand witness to the resulting neglect.

Why should the stock holders care? afterall the mess isn't in their back yards, pulling their property values down. "Let the suckers on location eat rust", etc

     AG:  You're suggesting that CSX spend money to make a bridge look better, even though a prettier bridge will not make a penny more for the bridge owner?  OK.  Why stop there?  Why not make the railroads keep open money losing branch lines too?  After all, pulling up a money-losing branch line certainly must pull down the property values of "some poor suckers" along the line, right?

     Actually, I get the feeling that you're playing devil's advocate here.  Didn't you imply at one time that you were somewhat retired, thanks to the stockmarket?.  I'm not so sure that you're not a disgruntled paint salesman!

[solzrules]

pss  This is not my best shot.  I do my best work in person.   

That supposed to be some kind of threat?  Don't  make me laugh so hard, I almost spilled my dinner.

You also said:  "You may rant and rave about "greedy capitalists," but its still the pursuit of profits that pays for everything.  Including, Sir, all the railroads that we inthusiasts enjoy.  It is also one of the ingredients that has helped to make this country great and to help fund that high horse that you often climb."

Sounds to me like you need to take a deep breath and relax man,  your affrontive nature isn't gonna change my opinion one bit.  Even Trains magazine has documented CSX's legendary neglect to infastructure. Recently referenced in their " the fight for conrail" article. If you have not already read it, I heartily recommend it.

Regardless, if I choose to sympathize with the cause of those objecting to how CSX's neglect affects them personally, I hope you'll understand that my failure to ask  for your permission  is purely intentional.  OK?

Now back under the bridge with you so you can be ready to pounce on the next unwary traveler to come walking down the pike.

 

I often lurk under bridges "ready to pounce" on the "unweary."  Kinda what I do and get paid for it.  Funny that way, huh?  Mr Gates the affrontage nature is exactly what this debate is about.  Your mind has been made up for years and nothing I can say or do could change that nor would I try.  The arguement is about the tone of the views you present. 

There are evils all over this world and wrongs to be righted.  However, the "tone" of your arguements are very condesending(did I spell that correctly?),at times.  Remember, Mr. Gates, its easy to critisize yet difficult to achieve.  Its easy to mount the perverbial soap box and go on about this or that, but the truth and or the answers, apart from what this side or that side says is often not that easy to descern.   

Anyway, you did not reply to any of the points I stated in my last post. Again, how do you want to reveal myself, Mr. Gates? Don't let me keep you from your dinner(paid for by the fruits of all those evil pursuits of capital, I surmize) he,he.  Nice touch, that "pink" to hilight my post.

ps  Its a crime to post threats over the internet, Mr. Gates.  Mine? Simply a statement of fact.  I do indeed do my best work in person.  More fun that way, you know!     

AntiGate's -

The fact that CSX doesn't paint their bridges is not indicative of negligence.  I agree with you - they look pretty rough, but structurally they are sound.  I think the cities involved here need to admit this a purely cosmetic complaint - something that could easily be turned around on the city.  I am sure they have public property that is in deplorable condition as well.  Here in Milwaukee some city politicians own rental property that has asbestos and lead hazards in the building.  These are real hazards to real people (especially when they are undisclosed).  To listen to a politician complain about the condition of a bridge and when his backyard is just as messy can ring a little hollow at times. 

[doghouse]

pss  This is not my best shot.  I do my best work in person.   

That supposed to be some kind of threat?  Don't  make me laugh so hard, I almost spilled my dinner.

You also said:  "You may rant and rave about "greedy capitalists," but its still the pursuit of profits that pays for everything.  Including, Sir, all the railroads that we inthusiasts enjoy.  It is also one of the ingredients that has helped to make this country great and to help fund that high horse that you often climb."

Sounds to me like you need to take a deep breath and relax man,  your affrontive nature isn't gonna change my opinion one bit.  Even Trains magazine has documented CSX's legendary neglect to infastructure. Recently referenced in their " the fight for conrail" article. If you have not already read it, I heartily recommend it.

Regardless, if I choose to sympathize with the cause of those objecting to how CSX's neglect affects them personally, I hope you'll understand that my failure to ask  for your permission  is purely intentional.  OK?

Now back under the bridge with you so you can be ready to pounce on the next unwary traveler to come walking down the pike.

 

I often lurk under bridges "ready to pounce" on the "unweary."  Kinda what I do and get paid for it.  Funny that way, huh?  Mr Gates the affrontage nature is exactly what this debate is about.  Your mind has been made up for years and nothing I can say or do could change that nor would I try.  The arguement is about the tone of the views you present. 

There are evils all over this world and wrongs to be righted.  However, the "tone" of your arguements are very condesending(did I spell that correctly?),at times.  Remember, Mr. Gates, its easy to critisize yet difficult to achieve.  Its easy to mount the perverbial soap box and go on about this or that, but the truth and or the answers, apart from what this side or that side says is often not that easy to descern.   

Anyway, you did not reply to any of the points I stated in my last post. Again, how do you want to reveal myself, Mr. Gates? Don't let me keep you from your dinner(paid for by the fruits of all those evil pursuits of capital, I surmize) he,he.  Nice touch, that "pink" to hilight my post.

ps  Its a crime to post threats over the internet, Mr. Gates.  Mine? Simply a statement of fact.  I do indeed do my best work in person.  More fun that way, you know!     

[Anonymous]

Antigates, your pictures of the viaducts at Lafayette are very revealing.

Truth be told, I cheated a little bit, this time. I'm surprised somebody hasn't called me out on it.

Remember the story 3-4 years ago about the big re-route project done in Lafayette to eliminate street running?

Well the bridge shown is  almost brand new via that particular project and is the first in an extensive series of bridges built to carry NS's former Wabash through the town.  The bridge in question is on the NE quad of the city spanning over Highway 25. And as you follow the line west towards the river and then south,  it's really remarkable to see that much recent RR work near a city center.

The temptation to use the pic was just too strong, ...(LOL) now i've confessed, and must repent

[Anonymous]

pss  This is not my best shot.  I do my best work in person.   

That supposed to be some kind of threat?  Don't  make me laugh so hard, I almost spilled my dinner.

You also said:  "You may rant and rave about "greedy capitalists," but its still the pursuit of profits that pays for everything.  Including, Sir, all the railroads that we inthusiasts enjoy.  It is also one of the ingredients that has helped to make this country great and to help fund that high horse that you often climb."

Sounds to me like you need to take a deep breath and relax man,  your affrontive nature isn't gonna change my opinion one bit.  Even Trains magazine has documented CSX's legendary neglect to infastructure. Recently referenced in their " the fight for conrail" article. If you have not already read it, I heartily recommend it.

Regardless, if I choose to sympathize with the cause of those objecting to how CSX's neglect affects them personally, I hope you'll understand that my failure to ask  for your permission  is purely intentional.  OK?

Now back under the bridge with you so you can be ready to pounce on the next unwary traveler to come walking down the pike.

[CShaveRR]

Antigates, your pictures of the viaducts at Lafayette are very revealing.  I saw one photo that told the same story--NS tracks and CSX tracks side by side (can't remember the exact location--somewhere in Virginia).  I've seen another CSX main line--often!--that (a) I know has seen better days and (b) now looks like some of the yard tracks I remember from the 1970s CNW.

And I'll never forget the time I visited a premier car shop and saw the origin of the repainted cars where the rust re-revealed itself in weeks.  Some things don't change.

The bottom-line fixation, no matter how noble it seems to the practitioners thereof, is going to come back and bite them someday.  Either that, or they'll try to retrench themselves into more profitability, leaving some of these piece-of-s*** lines to some hapless shortline operator.

Nearly every other major railroad has it right!

[doghouse]

 

Careful, Mr. Gates.  It's often a long fall off of a high horse.  

Take your best shot bowser, it's time for you to reveal yourself.

 

Reveal myself, as in who I am, where I live, ect. ...  Or as in my intentions?  If its my intentions, I'll use a line from one of your past posts: ' It should be obvious what I mean.  If its not, see above.'

ps Mr. Gates:  I'd like to remind you that its the pursuit of profit that put food on your table and pays your rent.  You may rant and rave about "greedy capitalists," but its still the pursuit of profits that pays for everything.  Including, Sir, all the railroads that we inthusiasts enjoy.  It is also one of the ingredients that has helped to make this country great and to help fund that high horse that you often climb.

pss  This is not my best shot.  I do my best work in person.   

[Modelcar]

....I make that trip a couple times a year so I'll keep an eye on it and see if I can remember to ID it the next time we go across there and see it's condition.

[Cheviot Hill]

....Yes, I understand....it's pretty typical.  Most interstate overpasses are painted.  On a trip to Pennsylvania last week I did noticed in general, that to be true...Even on the Pennsylvania Turnpike bridges are painted...Believe it is still owned and operated by the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission.

I do not remember the {Daleville}, CSX RR bridge ever being painted since it was constructed in the '70's.

About a third of the way into Ohio {I-70}, they are adding a lane each side of the highway and it requires a new or modified RR bridge...In fact they now have the tracks on a temp. structure, so it will be interesting to see when finished, if it will be painted.  I'll have to pay attention to see which RR it is......

Modelcar, if that bridge that you are referring to in Ohio, if I'm not mistaken is CSX line from Cincinnati to Toledo Ohio. CSX property, don't be suprised if it is in rust when completed. The last highway overpass that I can remember CSX painted in these parts was the one spanning I-75 in Kentucky. It's the line from Cincinnati to Louisville. CSX only painted there logo on it. Were talking when CSX was first forming. Who knows CSX might just surprise us and paint the new bridge over I-70.

[n012944]

That is why the railroads should use Cor-Ten steel for the bridges.  Never needs painting.

 

Bert

[Anonymous]

 

Careful, Mr. Gates.  It's often a long fall off of a high horse.  

Take your best shot bowser, it's time for you to reveal yourself.

[Modelcar]

....Yes, I understand....it's pretty typical.  Most interstate overpasses are painted.  On a trip to Pennsylvania last week I did noticed in general, that to be true...Even on the Pennsylvania Turnpike bridges are painted...Believe it is still owned and operated by the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission.

I do not remember the {Daleville}, CSX RR bridge ever being painted since it was constructed in the '70's.

About a third of the way into Ohio {I-70}, they are adding a lane each side of the highway and it requires a new or modified RR bridge...In fact they now have the tracks on a temp. structure, so it will be interesting to see when finished, if it will be painted.  I'll have to pay attention to see which RR it is......

[doghouse]

Just my opinion, but I believe some people make the mistake of over romanticising these issues.

This is not a conflict between a railroad and a city government, both of those parties are just bit actors and middle men representing the real principals  involved.

Greedy stockholders who's profit motive will take a back seat to nothing, sacrificing long term viability in exchange for short term gains, even if it means some poor suckers are stuck seeing their property values take a hit as the neighborhood saddled with the decaying infastructure  is forced to stand witness to the resulting neglect.

Why should the stock holders care? afterall the mess isn't in their back yards, pulling their property values down. "Let the suckers on location eat rust", etc

 

Careful, Mr. Gates.  It's often a long fall off of a high horse.  

[Anonymous]

....There is that rusy Daleville, In. CSX bridge again....Nasty looking isn't it....

What is amazing QM,  is that the responsibility for painting that bridge is clearly NOT the highway department's,  as some here have speculated. The  road overpass immediately behind the RR bridge is neatly painted  (as are all bridges along that stretch of highway) with a date stamp of 1998 on the paint job.

Only this RR bridge looks completely neglected

[Anonymous]

Just my opinion, but I believe some people make the mistake of over romanticising these issues.

This is not a conflict between a railroad and a city government, both of those parties are just bit actors and middle men representing the real principals  involved.

Greedy stockholders who's profit motive will take a back seat to nothing, sacrificing long term viability in exchange for short term gains, even if it means some poor suckers are stuck seeing their property values take a hit as the neighborhood saddled with the decaying infastructure  is forced to stand witness to the resulting neglect.

Why should the stock holders care? afterall the mess isn't in their back yards, pulling their property values down. "Let the suckers on location eat rust", etc

[Modelcar]

...Agree with C H above...Paint the bridge and install a promotion of service message for the RR...Thousands upon thousands of folks would see it every day.  Seems like a no brainer especially where a bridge is over an interstate highway.  Most rail fans probably agree the railroads could use better images and this just might be an efficient way to gain some....

[Modelcar]

....There is that rusy Daleville, In. CSX bridge again....Nasty looking isn't it....

[TomDiehl]

If, as CSX claims, the paint problem is simply cosmetic, they should insist that Covington pony up some of the cost to repaint the bridges.

[mvlandsw]

I see that Philadelphia is complaining about the condition of CSX's 25th street bridge.

[Cheviot Hill]

I know that it is very expensive to paint bridges. I remember when most railroad overpasses had the railroads names on them. Some better than others. It made for some good photography. What a simple advertisement tool.

[Anonymous]

Well, I think it was inevitable that the city would eventually begin pursuing the path I suggested when we first started discussing this, maybe the local authorities cannot force the federally regulated RR's to bend to their whims, but they sure CAN make being completely uncooperative j@ck@**e*  a more expensive undertaking for the railroads involved.

When you look at NS's presence in places such as Lafayette In:





compared to the standards CSX seems to be content with almost everywhere:



It's hard tosay that CSX is being "singled out" unfairly. 

[Andrew Falconer]

Some cities have to be perfect. Just like in a TV Commercial or a Movie Studio Set. This makes the city more valuable. The increased value, means people will spend more money in the city. That is the logic and reasoning that I have heard. Sure, that makes sense. Nothing is free and it must be perfect.

[Cheviot Hill]

The City of Covington Kentucky has up'd the ante with major increase in fines. Wonder if it's going to change anything or will CSX just simply pay the fines again? Any thoughts? Here is the link http://news.nky.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20060727/NEWS0103/307270022