Perhaps a reason for trying out the team engineer concept!

[Anonymous]

From the TRAINS newswire 6-29-06:

http://www.trains.com/Content/Dynamic/Articles/000/000/006/756zyeij.asp

"Tuesday’s eastbound Amtrak California Zephyr: an odyssey

CHICAGO – If you were going to meet someone today at Chicago Union Station traveling on Amtrak’s eastbound train 6, the California Zephyr that left Emeryville, Calif. (in the San Francisco Bay area), on Tuesday, June 27, you would have been well-advised — as with many Amtrak transcontinental trains in the summer — to contact Amtrak ahead of time regarding the train’s schedule-keeping. The Zephyr has been late routinely in recent weeks, but this train’s odyssey went beyond “routinely late.” The train operates on Union Pacific between Emeryville and Denver, and on BNSF Railway between Denver and Chicago.

According to Amtrak, the train departed Emeryville only 5 minutes late, at 9:20 a.m. on Tuesday, but then, while still in California, lost over six hours between Colfax, about 130 miles into its run, and Truckee, 52 miles farther east and still on the west side of the Sierra Nevada.

According to sources, the Zephyr was following an eastbound UP freight train on the ascent of Donner Pass where it encountered its first delay, of 5 hours and 25 minutes, when the freight train ahead set off a trackside defect detector at Gold Run. While waiting, the Zephyr’s engineer went over his Federally set maximum allowed hours of continuous service, and Amtrak requested a UP pilot engineer. The expected pilot engineer turned out to be unavailable, and train 6 had to wait for a substitute Amtrak engineer to arrive from Sacramento.

(snip)

Isn't it true that crews going dead out in Timbukto somewhere is one of the biggest causes of train delays? The team engineer concept would at least alleviate this one cause of train delays.

[Dutchrailnut]

Not possible once both engineers enter the train their time starts for hours of service, its impossible to get valid rest on a train.

[ValleyX]

Haven't we had this discussion before? As I recall, most working rails on here put down a number of reasons that it wouldn't work well. I know I've not changed my mind about such nonsense.

[Anonymous]

We have indeed heard this before. Just more typical trolling nonsense from Dave. It won't work and considering it at all is foolish.

[Chris30]

Hey! They beat my record! I was on a Cal Zeph that arrived in Chicago at @ 11:30pm (or something like that) @ 12 years ago. 12:30 am Chicago arrival... did we miss on eastern connection?? It's a good thing that nobody rides the Zeph for the scenic all daylight ride from Salt Lake City to Denver through the Rocky Mountains since this trip was an overnighter. Slept through all of those ugly mountains, then I woke up and saw Nebraska!! Wooo-hoooo!!!

Disclaimer: Nothing against personal against Nebraska or the nice folks who live there.
CC

[daveklepper]

The last time I rode the CZ eastbound BEFORE AMTRAK over the WP-D&RGW-CB&Q in 1968, we got into Chicago Union at 2AM, some 13 hours late. Instead of getting off at Aurora to catch a scoot to Downers Grove or Westmont, I slept an extra night in the roomette at caught a scoot at 6:30 AM to go out to Westmont.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dutchrailnut

Not possible once both engineers enter the train their time starts for hours of service, its impossible to get valid rest on a train.

So, a rail worker can't get "valid" rest in a roomette, but we expect the passengers to get a good night's sleep? Is there a contradiction here?

I am not arguing regarding most current rail workers disdain for the team concept (even though the team concept works for trucking, barging, and ocean shipping), rather whether the team concept can cut down on train delays.

[oltmannd]

I suspect the biggest hurdle you'd have with the concept of a crew getting rest in a sleeper is the FRA. They have the notion of a phyical location with a bed and food as a valid rest location. You'd probably need a waiver to allow rest on a train.

[rrnut282]

The team concept seems to work in the airline business without problems. Without boging down in details, on those 10-22 hour international globe-hopping flights, one crew handles the take-off , gets to cruising altitude turns on the auto-pilot and when their time is up, goes to a crew rest area in the plane and sacks out for the rest of the flight so they can do it again on the trip home. The second crew takes over and handles the landing. Some airlines work the scenario differently in that the same crew does both the take-off and landing while the second crew baby-sits the auto-pilot at cruise. The airlines have even more restrictive hours-of-service rules than the railroads.

If the airlines with their weight-restricted equipment can have a rest area, surely the railroads could come up with something acceptable that works. It will take a new mind-set for it to work, though.

[n012944]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dutchrailnut

Not possible once both engineers enter the train their time starts for hours of service, its impossible to get valid rest on a train.

So, a rail worker can't get "valid" rest in a roomette, but we expect the passengers to get a good night's sleep? Is there a contradiction here?

No. I am sure that they could get rest in a roomette, but according to the goverment they can't. Also the passenger is not expected to put a couple hundred persons lives into there hands when they wake up either.


Bert

[TH&B]

The engine crew could operate from a cab car similar to a private coach coupled ahead of the diesel engines. This could make for a quiter cab ride. Train crews used to sleep in cabooses, and that was the "good old days".

I would sugest to remove 95% of all public level crossings that are left in the country for any kind of teamster style or one man crew type of operations though.

[oltmannd]

The airline hours of service law is fundamentally different than the RR one. Why? Probably history more than rational thought.

[Murphy Siding]

How often does an engineer go dead on Amtrak?

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dutchrailnut

Not possible once both engineers enter the train their time starts for hours of service, its impossible to get valid rest on a train.

So, a rail worker can't get "valid" rest in a roomette, but we expect the passengers to get a good night's sleep? Is there a contradiction here?

I am not arguing regarding most current rail workers disdain for the team concept (even though the team concept works for trucking, barging, and ocean shipping), rather whether the team concept can cut down on train delays.

The main problem with the idea is that engineers would be required to be qualified over a huge length of track. This might include operating on many different railroad's territories. It is hard to learn a few hundred miles of track such that one could operate safely in fog, snow, night, and other such conditions, because there are many situations that are unique to each subdivision, and it would be expecting much for an engineer to become familiar with them all. To expect an engineer to learn over 1000+ miles of track would be unreasonable.

Maybe someday, when (if) one of the various train control systems become perfected. I heard of one system where the the track conditions, grade, crossing locations, signal locations, and such are programmed into the system, and a display in the locomotive tells the engineer everything he needs to know about the section he is travelling over. With that system, and much training, it might be possible.

[bobwilcox]

Many unit trains in Southern Africa use team crews with hours similar to a barge line in the US. The crews use a sleeping car just behind the locomotive during their off duty hours.

[samfp1943]

What about a Sleeper Cab on a locomotive, just like team trucks do it?
They could log off duty and be rested and ready to go, just like the 'big-riggers' do!
[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

[ I seem to recall several years ago that BNSF had something on their web site about locomotive crewmen being able to take 'power naps' in the cabs without penalty to them, they were not considered in violation of any GCOR rule, while doing their power nap. ]




Yeah, RIGHT!! [ Big Cheesy Grin[(-D] ]

[jeffhergert]

The number of trains delayed only because of a crew dying on hours without a recrew available is probably not that big. While I have at times, sat on a train dead waiting for a relief crew, most of the time I've been relieved before dying. If your running out of time out in the middle of nowhere, you've already had some serious delays. That's where your problems begin.

The team concept might actually hurt in the long run. The railroad keeps track of their recrews between terminals. They don't like them, try to avoid them. Recrews show that there are problems getting over the road.

Put a team out there. Change off where ever you need to. Except for your high priority trains, who cares if a train moves. Don't have to worry about finding a relief crew. Let some junk train sit a few extra hours for the Z. Then a few more because of the Z from the other direction is getting close.

Jeff

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the excellent respones!

It seems as if the team concept might work on Amtrak, but the crews would have to be trained for the entire route(?).

Not as sure about hotshots. Are there many cases of hot TOFC's getting delayed by dog catch?