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Shipper's Hop Aboard Rail

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Shipper's Hop Aboard Rail
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, June 26, 2006 11:24 AM
Shippers Hop Aboard Rail
(The following story by Peter Krouse appeared on the Plain Dealer website on June 25.)

CLEVELAND — Have you noticed a greater number of freight trains rumbling through Cleveland in recent years?

Chances are you have. Perhaps on the Norfolk South ern line as it crosses Chester Avenue in Midtown, or maybe along the CSX track as it runs parallel to the Norfolk Southern near University Circle.

Shippers across the country have been putting more and more freight on trains as the economics of hauling by rail have become more favorable.

The increased traffic has meant strong profits for the railroads. But for many who rely on trains to ship their goods it has been -- at times -- a hassle.

Congestion on the tracks and a shortage of rail cars, not to mention rising prices, have all contributed to headaches for shippers and their customers. It has also brought to a head the need for improved rail infrastructure in the United States and perhaps a public-private partnership when it comes to paying for it.

Rail's good fortune extends across the spectrum, from the major carriers such as Norfolk Southern and CSX in the East, to the many regionals and short lines.

The Wheeling & Lake Erie Railway, which serves northern Ohio and parts of Pennsylvania, West Virginia and Maryland, has seen steady growth turn explosive in the last two years, said Bill Callison, the railroad's chief operating officer. It handled about 115,000 carloads in 2004, while this year it expects to increase volume by about 30 percent to 150,000 carloads.

Over that time, employment at the W&LE has jumped more than 10 percent to around 400.

The high price of oil and diesel fuel has been a major factor in making railroads more competitive, Callison said, because trains are typically about three times more fuel-efficient than trucks. But the overall strength of the economy, including the demand for bulk commodities such as coal, stone and scrap metal, has contributed, too.

Callison estimates that more than 30 customers seeking rail transport have located along W&LE track in Ohio over the last 15 years. Most recently Aurora Plastics put a plant in Streetsboro that's scheduled to open this summer, as is a Polymer Packaging plant in Massillon.

The good fortune has filtered all the way down to the tiny Ashtabula, Carson & Jefferson, a 6.3-mile spur off the Norfolk Southern in Ashtabula County. Operator Bob Callahan has fielded half a dozen new business inquiries since February. He hauls a lot of paper to corrugated-box maker Smurfit-Stone Container Corp. and plastic pellets that are transferred to trucks and delivered to nearby plants.

Business has been excellent at railroads across Ohio, said Lou Jannazo, chief of project development at the Ohio Rail Development Commission. "It's a great time to be in railroading, and they are at capacity."

Full trains create tensions

With more freight moving through a rail system that has not been able to grow with demand, there has been occasional tension between railroads and their customers.

At Mittal Steel USA in Cleveland, shipments of coke and scrap metal still arrive pretty much on schedule, but the rail car shortage and general rail congestion requires a lot more hustle and coordination to keep on time.

Mittal owns a short-line track called the Cleveland Works Railway, that serves the mill and three other companies in the Flats.

The CROW, as the short line is known, takes possession of the freight after it's deposited in adjacent railyards by either the Norfolk Southern, CSX or the W&LE. The short line then positions the empties or any outgoing loads for the long-haul railroads to pick up.

With certain kinds of rail cars in short supply, the railroads now closely monitor turnaround times. That requires Mittal and the CROW to unload cars as quickly as they can to get them back to the railroads without costly delays.

"We are out to make them our friends so they will give us better service," said Dan Hereda, who heads up logistics and Mittal Steel-Cleveland. "And it's working."

With greater profits, the railroads have been able to pump a lot more money into infrastructure.

$8.3 billion on improvements

The seven largest railroads that operate in the United States expect to spend $8.3 billion this year on such improvements as additional track, better switching yards and more locomotives.

CSX, for example, is putting in new siding along its main line from Chicago to Florida.

Smaller railroads are putting up dough, too. The Wheeling & Lake Erie recently borrowed $25 million to make improvements to its infrastructure that will increase the speed and efficiency of its trains. It also has ordered 150 open-top hopper cars.

But not everybody can wait for the railroads to come to their rescue.

Scrap dealer PSC Metals Inc. of Mayfield Heights has taken matters into its own hands. It recently acquired 27 cars, leasing 17 and buying 10.

The overall shortage has rail car manufacturers working double time. At American Railcar Industries Inc. near St. Louis, the backlog for its tank and hopper cars exceeds 14,000, enough work to last into 2008.

The Andersons Inc. near Toledo has tripled its fleet of rental rail cars in the last three years and still has none to spare, said Gary Smith, the company's chief financial officer. The diversified company's rail operations had operating income of only $4 million in 2003, but last year it reached $23 million.

But will all the investment and coordination be enough?

One of the biggest critics of the railroads is United Parcel Service, which complained to the Surface Transportation Board in Washington, D.C., last year that federal response is needed to address the capacity crunch. One proposal is a rail transportation fund akin to the highway transportation fund that applies gas taxes to road improvements.

UPS is the largest corporate customer of the railroads, shipping trailers and containers from U.S. ports to inland terminals where they are attached to trucks and delivered to customers around the country.

But the Association of American Railroads, which represents the major railroads, opposes such a tax. It could make the railroads uncompetitive with trucks and barges, said the association's president, Edward Hamberger. Also, bureaucrats and politicians would determine how the money is spent, not the railroads.

Hamberger said the association would like Congress to provide tax credits to the railroads when they expand.

The industry's problems stem from deregulation, which occurred in 1980. Railroads consolidated and restructured, and a lot of track that was deemed unprofitable was taken out of service.

Wall Street pressured the railroads to operate much leaner, said Carl Martland, a senior research associate in the department of civil and environmental engineering at Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and they did. Also, prices rose, but only for a few years. They then began a steady decline in the face of competition from trucking, only to start rising again in 2004.

Martland believes Congress should finance more research on rail issues and that ultimately a blueprint for a system that includes multiple tracks, efficient switching yards and both long-haul and short-line railroads should be established.

Clearly, the railroads can't be asked to do it all, Martland said. The public should help pay for the benefits of increased rail use, which include less highway congestion, less energy consumption and cleaner air.

"The railroads won't invest enough to get the full public benefits," he said.

CSX spokesman Gary Sease laid out the economic reality: While railroads may be constrained now, they won't be when the economy cycles downward, and yet the debt on any infrastructure improvements will still have to be paid.

There's a saying in the industry, he said. "You don't build the church for Easter Sunday."

From BLET Site
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Posted by samfp1943 on Monday, June 26, 2006 12:20 PM
Sounds like things in the "Rust Belt" are gearing up.[8D]

 

 


 

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, June 26, 2006 1:13 PM
Sounds like there are not nearly so many dissatisfied customers as some would have us believe.
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, June 26, 2006 7:17 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Character

Sounds like there are not nearly so many dissatisfied customers as some would have us believe.


Quotes from article:

"But for many who rely on trains to ship their goods it has been -- at times -- a hassle."

"Congestion on the tracks and a shortage of rail cars, not to mention rising prices, have all contributed to headaches for shippers and their customers."

"With more freight moving through a rail system that has not been able to grow with demand, there has been occasional tension between railroads and their customers."

"One of the biggest critics of the railroads is United Parcel Service, which complained to the Surface Transportation Board in Washington, D.C., last year that federal response is needed to address the capacity crunch."

You see the glass half full, I see it half empty.

BTW - This is a great article! Thanks for posting it.

The "tell" however is in the finer print. There are several references to having the public bear the cost of new rail construction:

"It has also brought to a head the need for improved rail infrastructure in the United States and perhaps a public-private partnership when it comes to paying for it."

"Hamberger said the association would like Congress to provide tax credits to the railroads when they expand."

"Martland believes Congress".....(that's you and me folks!)...." should finance more research on rail issues"

"'Clearly, the railroads can't be asked to do it all,' Martland said. 'The public should help pay for the benefits of increased rail use, which include less highway congestion, less energy consumption and cleaner air. The railroads won't invest enough to get the full public benefits,' he said"

Hmmmm, hasn't railroad retrenchment caused more, not less highway congestion? Hasn't the average truck haul to the nearest railhead increased fourfold since the 1960's? Surely Professor Martland knows that the public IS paying for loss of rail network coverage across the USA via increased truck road usage.

But the funniest quote is the one from CSX spokesman Gary Sease in explaining why railroads won't keep up with current demand for fear of an economic downturn:

"There's a saying in the industry. You don't build the church for Easter Sunday."

Actually, you do build the church for your maximum capacity even if that capacity is only reached on special occasions. Ditto for your school gymnasium, your community theatre, your convention center...........the list is endless. And the saying, if indeed it is a current rail industry maxim, is idiotic.

Only a fool builds a facility's capacity for the bare minimum.[D)]

I will say there are a lot of ideas for improving rail capacity that I have promoted over the years. The UPS idea of a railroad trust fund paid for with fuel taxes on the railroads was seemingly lifted right from this forum and yours truly.[:p] And I am an advocate of using tax credits to fund rail infrastructure expansion, albeit only for lines which give opportunity for each rail shipper to have access to intramodal competition, aka the dreaded open access.

Look, it boils down to this: If the railroads want the public to fund the rebuilding of lost capacity (perchance to expand rail capacity to new reaches[tup]), then the public deserves some semblence of public acces to that public/private property. Open access solves that tradeoff. Not so sure reregulation will accompli***hat end.

I apologize if it seems I have hijacked another thread. I will now release the hostages.[;)]
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Posted by solzrules on Monday, June 26, 2006 9:52 PM
A real interesting read - thanks for the post!
You think this is bad? Just wait until inflation kicks in.....
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Posted by greyhounds on Monday, June 26, 2006 10:21 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by Character

Sounds like there are not nearly so many dissatisfied customers as some would have us believe.


Quotes from article:

"But for many who rely on trains to ship their goods it has been -- at times -- a hassle."

"Congestion on the tracks and a shortage of rail cars, not to mention rising prices, have all contributed to headaches for shippers and their customers."

"With more freight moving through a rail system that has not been able to grow with demand, there has been occasional tension between railroads and their customers."

"One of the biggest critics of the railroads is United Parcel Service, which complained to the Surface Transportation Board in Washington, D.C., last year that federal response is needed to address the capacity crunch."

You see the glass half full, I see it half empty.

BTW - This is a great article! Thanks for posting it.

The "tell" however is in the finer print. There are several references to having the public bear the cost of new rail construction:

"It has also brought to a head the need for improved rail infrastructure in the United States and perhaps a public-private partnership when it comes to paying for it."

"Hamberger said the association would like Congress to provide tax credits to the railroads when they expand."

"Martland believes Congress".....(that's you and me folks!)...." should finance more research on rail issues"

"'Clearly, the railroads can't be asked to do it all,' Martland said. 'The public should help pay for the benefits of increased rail use, which include less highway congestion, less energy consumption and cleaner air. The railroads won't invest enough to get the full public benefits,' he said"

Hmmmm, hasn't railroad retrenchment caused more, not less highway congestion? Hasn't the average truck haul to the nearest railhead increased fourfold since the 1960's? Surely Professor Martland knows that the public IS paying for loss of rail network coverage across the USA via increased truck road usage.

But the funniest quote is the one from CSX spokesman Gary Sease in explaining why railroads won't keep up with current demand for fear of an economic downturn:

"There's a saying in the industry. You don't build the church for Easter Sunday."

Actually, you do build the church for your maximum capacity even if that capacity is only reached on special occasions. Ditto for your school gymnasium, your community theatre, your convention center...........the list is endless. And the saying, if indeed it is a current rail industry maxim, is idiotic.

Only a fool builds a facility's capacity for the bare minimum.[D)]

I will say there are a lot of ideas for improving rail capacity that I have promoted over the years. The UPS idea of a railroad trust fund paid for with fuel taxes on the railroads was seemingly lifted right from this forum and yours truly.[:p] And I am an advocate of using tax credits to fund rail infrastructure expansion, albeit only for lines which give opportunity for each rail shipper to have access to intramodal competition, aka the dreaded open access.

Look, it boils down to this: If the railroads want the public to fund the rebuilding of lost capacity (perchance to expand rail capacity to new reaches[tup]), then the public deserves some semblence of public acces to that public/private property. Open access solves that tradeoff. Not so sure reregulation will accompli***hat end.

I apologize if it seems I have hijacked another thread. I will now release the hostages.[;)]



In whatever FM attempts to read, he finds in it validation and vindication. Even if they aren't there, he finds them.
"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.
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Posted by n012944 on Monday, June 26, 2006 10:27 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by Character

Sounds like there are not nearly so many dissatisfied customers as some would have us believe.



Hmmmm, hasn't railroad retrenchment caused more, not less highway congestion? Hasn't the average truck haul to the nearest railhead increased fourfold since the 1960's? Surely Professor Martland knows that the public IS paying for loss of rail network coverage across the USA via increased truck road usage.

Actually, you do build the church for your maximum capacity even if that capacity is only reached on special occasions. Ditto for your school gymnasium, your community theatre, your convention center...........the list is endless. And the saying, if indeed it is a current rail industry maxim, is idiotic.


Maybe the average truck haul going up has more to do with the Interstate highway system just getting into high gear during the 60's then the loss of railroads. And for you list of things you build for max capacity, I find it ironic that almost all the things you list are built with goverment money, so profit is not an issue. I guess Dave wants railroads to be paying for four track mains when the economy crashes and there is only enough traffic to support two. That is how companies go bankrupt.


Bert

An "expensive model collector"

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 8:07 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by n012944

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by Character

Sounds like there are not nearly so many dissatisfied customers as some would have us believe.



Hmmmm, hasn't railroad retrenchment caused more, not less highway congestion? Hasn't the average truck haul to the nearest railhead increased fourfold since the 1960's? Surely Professor Martland knows that the public IS paying for loss of rail network coverage across the USA via increased truck road usage.

Actually, you do build the church for your maximum capacity even if that capacity is only reached on special occasions. Ditto for your school gymnasium, your community theatre, your convention center...........the list is endless. And the saying, if indeed it is a current rail industry maxim, is idiotic.


Maybe the average truck haul going up has more to do with the Interstate highway system just getting into high gear during the 60's then the loss of railroads. And for you list of things you build for max capacity, I find it ironic that almost all the things you list are built with goverment money, so profit is not an issue. I guess Dave wants railroads to be paying for four track mains when the economy crashes and there is only enough traffic to support two. That is how companies go bankrupt.


Bert


Churches are private. Many schools are private. Theatres are private. Most convention centers are private (usually associated with a corresponding hotel or motel). I find it ironic you think most of those things are from the government.

I think it would be in the rail industry's best interests to adopt some other maxim other than "You don't build the church for Easter Sunday". Clearly none of these guys go to church.

How about "We really f*****d up! We bad!"[}:)]
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 8:39 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by n012944

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by Character

Sounds like there are not nearly so many dissatisfied customers as some would have us believe.



Hmmmm, hasn't railroad retrenchment caused more, not less highway congestion? Hasn't the average truck haul to the nearest railhead increased fourfold since the 1960's? Surely Professor Martland knows that the public IS paying for loss of rail network coverage across the USA via increased truck road usage.

Actually, you do build the church for your maximum capacity even if that capacity is only reached on special occasions. Ditto for your school gymnasium, your community theatre, your convention center...........the list is endless. And the saying, if indeed it is a current rail industry maxim, is idiotic.


Maybe the average truck haul going up has more to do with the Interstate highway system just getting into high gear during the 60's then the loss of railroads. And for you list of things you build for max capacity, I find it ironic that almost all the things you list are built with goverment money, so profit is not an issue. I guess Dave wants railroads to be paying for four track mains when the economy crashes and there is only enough traffic to support two. That is how companies go bankrupt.


Bert


Churches are private. Many schools are private. Theatres are private. Most convention centers are private (usually associated with a corresponding hotel or motel). I find it ironic you think most of those things are from the government.

I think it would be in the rail industry's best interests to adopt some other maxim other than "You don't build the church for Easter Sunday". Clearly none of these guys go to church.

How about "We really f*****d up! We bad!"[}:)]


How 'bout, we build the church for our reasonable expectation of what the congregation will be, and as that congregation changes in size and composition we build a new church to reflect our congregation. Our old church is sold by the Dioceses to a nice developer who makes condos out of it. That is the way it is really done.

The railroad's congregation is changing again and we are putting a new wing on the church, we don't need a whole new church, just a bit of extra space because the demand is greater. This isn't a question of making mistakes, although Dave the untutored boob without a documented college education has his tunnel vision blinders on, as usual.

Railroads need to make changes to add capacity in many places and it is happening, whether that makes the so called "Captive" shippers happy, is irrelevant. Many railroad customers will never be happy, and if all of a sudden they get happy, it is for one of two reasons, your railroad is about to be hurt severely or they have finally realized they can have a choice rail service or no rail service when the line becomes unprofitable and becomes an abandonment candidate...
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Posted by edblysard on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 9:53 PM




How about "We really f*****d up! We bad!"[}:)]


How 'bout you grow up some, and clean up your foul mouth?
I don't think there will be any question who was the jerk first time out in this thread.
Ed

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 10:11 PM
Question for the so-called yet undocumented attorney:

When one plans to build a hotel, does he/she build for the expected average occupancy? Or does he/she build for the maximum occupancy?

Hint: The question is rhetorical to all but those in the rail industry.
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 10:26 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

Question for the so-called yet undocumented attorney:

When one plans to build a hotel, does he/she build for the expected average occupancy? Or does he/she build for the maximum occupancy?

Hint: The question is rhetorical to all but those in the rail industry.


If you build everything for the maximum possible occupancy you'll go bankrupt every time. To say nothing of the fact that you'll never get the chance as your banks or other financial sources won't let you build something HUGE without justification. Why are business plans required, do you imagine, oops, forgot, you don't have an imagination. Obviously you've never actually had to run a business, a nice addition to your vacuous lack of credentials.
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 10:34 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Character

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

Question for the so-called yet undocumented attorney:

When one plans to build a hotel, does he/she build for the expected average occupancy? Or does he/she build for the maximum occupancy?

Hint: The question is rhetorical to all but those in the rail industry.


If you build everything for the maximum possible occupancy you'll go bankrupt every time. To say nothing of the fact that you'll never get the chance as your banks or other financial sources won't let you build something HUGE without justification. Why are business plans required, do you imagine, oops, forgot, you don't have an imagination. Obviously you've never actually had to run a business, a nice addition to your vacuous lack of credentials.


So all those hotels and motels are going bankrupt every time? Those resturants that build seating capacity for the Easter Sunday crowd have all gone bankrupt? All those movie theatres built for the next big blockbuster movie have all gone bankrupt?

You build for the max, not the mean. Maybe if the railroads had adopted that maxim along with the rest of the business world, they wouldn't be lobbying the government for financial aid to rebuild their lost capacity from a few decades ago.

BTW, all the credentials in the world mean nothing without a legal name to go with 'em.[;)]
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 10:38 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard





How about "We really f*****d up! We bad!"[}:)]


How 'bout you grow up some, and clean up your foul mouth?
I don't think there will be any question who was the jerk first time out in this thread.
Ed


Foul mouth? You mean the word begining with an "f"?

Count the number of letters before you jump to conclusions.
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 10:56 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by Character

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

Question for the so-called yet undocumented attorney:

When one plans to build a hotel, does he/she build for the expected average occupancy? Or does he/she build for the maximum occupancy?

Hint: The question is rhetorical to all but those in the rail industry.


If you build everything for the maximum possible occupancy you'll go bankrupt every time. To say nothing of the fact that you'll never get the chance as your banks or other financial sources won't let you build something HUGE without justification. Why are business plans required, do you imagine, oops, forgot, you don't have an imagination. Obviously you've never actually had to run a business, a nice addition to your vacuous lack of credentials.


So all those hotels and motels are going bankrupt every time? Those resturants that build seating capacity for the Easter Sunday crowd have all gone bankrupt? All those movie theatres built for the next big blockbuster movie have all gone bankrupt?

You build for the max, not the mean. Maybe if the railroads had adopted that maxim along with the rest of the business world, they wouldn't be lobbying the government for financial aid to rebuild their lost capacity from a few decades ago.

BTW, all the credentials in the world mean nothing without a legal name to go with 'em.[;)]


In case you haven't noticed, Dave, assuming that is your real name, not every office building is the Sears Tower, nor is every shopping mall the Mall of Americas, nor is every hotel the Waldorf Astoria. People build for different reasons to different sizes and different goals. They don't just throw up the biggest building they can buy in the hope that someone who will come along and use it. So, again, nice try, but your argument is pure BS, as usual...
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Posted by rrandb on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 11:09 PM
Hey Dave how about you get those New York bankers to open their purses so the railroads can build those 4 main lines. Those buildings you mentioned are either built with Tax or Tax-Exempt funds. They are not required to answer to investors and bankers. The exception may be private schols that are built with generous endowments. I know of no RR's that can afford the luxury of living for Easter Sundays.
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Posted by jeaton on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 11:12 PM
I guess in futuremodal's alternate universe idle assets have no cost. Could that mean they came free in the first place? Maybe someday a science will find a way to break through and we can get all that no cost stuff.

By the way, if anybody is wondering, there maybe a very good reason why those who post on internet forums should use screen names. I no longer have to be concerned about it, but I have heard that employers will do a Google search on the names of job applicants as part of a background check. Original posts from here don't seem to show up, but posts in quotes are there.

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Posted by TomDiehl on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 6:44 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by Character

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

Question for the so-called yet undocumented attorney:

When one plans to build a hotel, does he/she build for the expected average occupancy? Or does he/she build for the maximum occupancy?

Hint: The question is rhetorical to all but those in the rail industry.


If you build everything for the maximum possible occupancy you'll go bankrupt every time. To say nothing of the fact that you'll never get the chance as your banks or other financial sources won't let you build something HUGE without justification. Why are business plans required, do you imagine, oops, forgot, you don't have an imagination. Obviously you've never actually had to run a business, a nice addition to your vacuous lack of credentials.


So all those hotels and motels are going bankrupt every time? Those resturants that build seating capacity for the Easter Sunday crowd have all gone bankrupt? All those movie theatres built for the next big blockbuster movie have all gone bankrupt?

You build for the max, not the mean. Maybe if the railroads had adopted that maxim along with the rest of the business world, they wouldn't be lobbying the government for financial aid to rebuild their lost capacity from a few decades ago.

BTW, all the credentials in the world mean nothing without a legal name to go with 'em.[;)]


I guess this means that Dave has never seen a Hotel or Motel with a "no vacancy" sign, or gone on line to make a reservation and received the reply "sorry, all booked up for those dates."
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Posted by n012944 on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 8:43 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by n012944

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by Character

Sounds like there are not nearly so many dissatisfied customers as some would have us believe.



Hmmmm, hasn't railroad retrenchment caused more, not less highway congestion? Hasn't the average truck haul to the nearest railhead increased fourfold since the 1960's? Surely Professor Martland knows that the public IS paying for loss of rail network coverage across the USA via increased truck road usage.

Actually, you do build the church for your maximum capacity even if that capacity is only reached on special occasions. Ditto for your school gymnasium, your community theatre, your convention center...........the list is endless. And the saying, if indeed it is a current rail industry maxim, is idiotic.


Maybe the average truck haul going up has more to do with the Interstate highway system just getting into high gear during the 60's then the loss of railroads. And for you list of things you build for max capacity, I find it ironic that almost all the things you list are built with goverment money, so profit is not an issue. I guess Dave wants railroads to be paying for four track mains when the economy crashes and there is only enough traffic to support two. That is how companies go bankrupt.


Bert


Churches are private. Many schools are private. Theatres are private. Most convention centers are private (usually associated with a corresponding hotel or motel). I find it ironic you think most of those things are from the government.

I think it would be in the rail industry's best interests to adopt some other maxim other than "You don't build the church for Easter Sunday". Clearly none of these guys go to church.

How about "We really f*****d up! We bad!"[}:)]


Just because it is privately owned does not mean it was not built with public money. Most sports teams are privately owned, but there arenas are, for the most part, public funded. Major convention centers, with the exception of Vegas, are almost always built with public funds, as the town knows it will get that money back in time. The majority of schools being BUILT these days are public, private schools are not what they once were. I find it ironic that someone who claims to have a degree in economics, has so little clue to how the economy works.


Bert

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 7:35 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb

Hey Dave how about you get those New York bankers to open their purses so the railroads can build those 4 main lines. Those buildings you mentioned are either built with Tax or Tax-Exempt funds. They are not required to answer to investors and bankers. The exception may be private schols that are built with generous endowments. I know of no RR's that can afford the luxury of living for Easter Sundays.


The big difference of course is that the RR's, (unlike hotels, movie theatres, etc) had the capacity a few decades ago but gave it all away for some proverbial magic beans. Now they want it back, and they want the taxpayers to foot the bill. The reason is quite understandable: Litigatory spectors haunt all such projects these days. That's why DM&E needs federal help for a project that everyone seems to agree is right for the times.

How many New York bankers want their investment funds tied up in frivolous lawsuits for years on end?

And BTW, most hotels and such are paid for by private investment.
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 7:51 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton

I guess in futuremodal's alternate universe idle assets have no cost. Could that mean they came free in the first place? Maybe someday a science will find a way to break through and we can get all that no cost stuff.


I know you better than that Jay. You know perfectly well the meaning of the hotel analogy. No hotel ever has 100% average occupancy, and yes those empty rooms do have a cost. But if you don't build for the max occupancy, you'll end up losing business in the long run.

Say you want to build a 200 room hotel. Then you find out your average occupancy will only be 50% anually, or 200 x 50% x 365 = 36,500 nightly stays at say $100 a night = $3,650,000 net revenues.

So you say "well, we'll just build a 100 unit hotel." What happens? Do you now get 100% occupancy? NO. You still get only 50% occupancy, and the potential clients who happen to get turned away on those nights you are maxed tend not to return to your hotel when occupancy is lower, so now you have 100 x 50% x 365 = 18,250 nightly stays x $100 per night = $1,825,000 net revenues.

So now your net revenues are half what they would have been, while your fixed costs only dropped marginally (e.g. a hotel of 200 units does not cost twice as much to build as a hotel of 100 units).

The cost of keeping rails in place is a fraction of what it costs to rebuild an abandoned line or build a whole new line. Keeping a line mothballed for 20 or 30 years is much less costly than having to rebuild that line after abandonment.
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 8:39 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb

Hey Dave how about you get those New York bankers to open their purses so the railroads can build those 4 main lines. Those buildings you mentioned are either built with Tax or Tax-Exempt funds. They are not required to answer to investors and bankers. The exception may be private schols that are built with generous endowments. I know of no RR's that can afford the luxury of living for Easter Sundays.


The big difference of course is that the RR's, (unlike hotels, movie theatres, etc) had the capacity a few decades ago but gave it all away for some proverbial magic beans. Now they want it back, and they want the taxpayers to foot the bill. The reason is quite understandable: Litigatory spectors haunt all such projects these days. That's why DM&E needs federal help for a project that everyone seems to agree is right for the times.

How many New York bankers want their investment funds tied up in frivolous lawsuits for years on end?

And BTW, most hotels and such are paid for by private investment.


Real financial types from Wall Street and many other places are throwing cash at railroads right now, or haven't you noticed the steep rise in share prices among those publicly traded??? Further, even short lines enjoy a rich investment environment these days. In the railroad financial meetings I attend each year I hear more enthusiasm than fear of lawsuits. Litigation is a risk of doing business like anything else. Investors are far more afraid of the government than of the courts...
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Posted by TomDiehl on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 10:47 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal
The cost of keeping rails in place is a fraction of what it costs to rebuild an abandoned line or build a whole new line. Keeping a line mothballed for 20 or 30 years is much less costly than having to rebuild that line after abandonment.


But again, you're talking about a cost to a railroad that doesn't have enough money to pay the bills for the part that is operating. And the idea that you'll need a given line in 20 or 30 years is pure speculation. When your company is teetering on bankruptcy, you can't afford to speculate.
Smile, it makes people wonder what you're up to. Chief of Sanitation; Clowntown
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, June 29, 2006 8:09 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal
The cost of keeping rails in place is a fraction of what it costs to rebuild an abandoned line or build a whole new line. Keeping a line mothballed for 20 or 30 years is much less costly than having to rebuild that line after abandonment.


But again, you're talking about a cost to a railroad that doesn't have enough money to pay the bills for the part that is operating. And the idea that you'll need a given line in 20 or 30 years is pure speculation. When your company is teetering on bankruptcy, you can't afford to speculate.


So were all the railroads teetering on bankruptcy when they engaged in whole hearted retrenchment?
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Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, June 29, 2006 8:33 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal
The cost of keeping rails in place is a fraction of what it costs to rebuild an abandoned line or build a whole new line. Keeping a line mothballed for 20 or 30 years is much less costly than having to rebuild that line after abandonment.


But again, you're talking about a cost to a railroad that doesn't have enough money to pay the bills for the part that is operating. And the idea that you'll need a given line in 20 or 30 years is pure speculation. When your company is teetering on bankruptcy, you can't afford to speculate.


So were all the railroads teetering on bankruptcy when they engaged in whole hearted retrenchment?

No, but they were all lacking that crystal ball that told them which lines to keep, and which one to pitch. So, they did the only thing that anyone (you included) would have done. They analized current traffic, and predictable future business. They did what they felt was correct at the time, based on what they knew at the time-the same as you, or any other person would have had to do. To suggest otherwise, isn't quite realistic.

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

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Posted by TomDiehl on Thursday, June 29, 2006 10:02 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal
The cost of keeping rails in place is a fraction of what it costs to rebuild an abandoned line or build a whole new line. Keeping a line mothballed for 20 or 30 years is much less costly than having to rebuild that line after abandonment.


But again, you're talking about a cost to a railroad that doesn't have enough money to pay the bills for the part that is operating. And the idea that you'll need a given line in 20 or 30 years is pure speculation. When your company is teetering on bankruptcy, you can't afford to speculate.


So were all the railroads teetering on bankruptcy when they engaged in whole hearted retrenchment?

No, but they were all lacking that crystal ball that told them which lines to keep, and which one to pitch. So, they did the only thing that anyone (you included) would have done. They analized current traffic, and predictable future business. They did what they felt was correct at the time, based on what they knew at the time-the same as you, or any other person would have had to do. To suggest otherwise, isn't quite realistic.


Back to a question Dave avoided in the past: Which lines, slated for abandonment today will be the heavy mainlines 20 or 30 years from now?
Smile, it makes people wonder what you're up to. Chief of Sanitation; Clowntown
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, June 29, 2006 10:06 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal
The cost of keeping rails in place is a fraction of what it costs to rebuild an abandoned line or build a whole new line. Keeping a line mothballed for 20 or 30 years is much less costly than having to rebuild that line after abandonment.


But again, you're talking about a cost to a railroad that doesn't have enough money to pay the bills for the part that is operating. And the idea that you'll need a given line in 20 or 30 years is pure speculation. When your company is teetering on bankruptcy, you can't afford to speculate.


So were all the railroads teetering on bankruptcy when they engaged in whole hearted retrenchment?


Define "whole hearted retrenchment".

Is that abandonment of tracks or something else Dave???

If you are speaking of abandonment and removal of main lines, much more of that was accomplished by the bankrupt lines such as Conrail, the MIlwaulkee Road, and the Rock Island than was done at virtually any other time and those roads were bankrupt or in Conrails case a government corporation created from seven bankrupt railroads...

But, this "retrenchment" you speak of must be ione o' thme new fangled Eck-O-Nom-IC words, 'cause it is notr a term of art in railroadin'...
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Posted by n012944 on Thursday, June 29, 2006 11:14 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal
The cost of keeping rails in place is a fraction of what it costs to rebuild an abandoned line or build a whole new line. Keeping a line mothballed for 20 or 30 years is much less costly than having to rebuild that line after abandonment.


But again, you're talking about a cost to a railroad that doesn't have enough money to pay the bills for the part that is operating. And the idea that you'll need a given line in 20 or 30 years is pure speculation. When your company is teetering on bankruptcy, you can't afford to speculate.


So were all the railroads teetering on bankruptcy when they engaged in whole hearted retrenchment?


No, but many were. It seems that your knowledge of the econmic world is little. Where did you get your "economic" degree anyway, a Cracker Jack box?


Bert


Bert

An "expensive model collector"

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Posted by rrandb on Thursday, June 29, 2006 11:26 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Character

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb

Hey Dave how about you get those New York bankers to open their purses so the railroads can build those 4 main lines. Those buildings you mentioned are either built with Tax or Tax-Exempt funds. They are not required to answer to investors and bankers. The exception may be private schols that are built with generous endowments. I know of no RR's that can afford the luxury of living for Easter Sundays.


The big difference of course is that the RR's, (unlike hotels, movie theatres, etc) had the capacity a few decades ago but gave it all away for some proverbial magic beans. Now they want it back, and they want the taxpayers to foot the bill. The reason is quite understandable: Litigatory spectors haunt all such projects these days. That's why DM&E needs federal help for a project that everyone seems to agree is right for the times.

How many New York bankers want their investment funds tied up in frivolous lawsuits for years on end?

And BTW, most hotels and such are paid for by private investment.


Real financial type from Wall Street and many other places are throwing cash at railroads right now, or haven't you noticed the steep rise in share prices among those publicly traded. Further, even short lines enjoy a rich investment environment these days. In the railroad financial meetings I attend each year I hear more enthusiasm than fear of lawsuits. Litigation is a risk of doing business like anything else. Investors are far more afraid of the government than of the courts...
Well then why has DME been forced to seek Fed financing for a obviousely needed expansion into PRB. NYC only makes loans to RR that have verifiable needs and a guarenteed returns on investment. There is little market for RR speculation as in the old days.
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, June 29, 2006 7:19 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal
The cost of keeping rails in place is a fraction of what it costs to rebuild an abandoned line or build a whole new line. Keeping a line mothballed for 20 or 30 years is much less costly than having to rebuild that line after abandonment.


But again, you're talking about a cost to a railroad that doesn't have enough money to pay the bills for the part that is operating. And the idea that you'll need a given line in 20 or 30 years is pure speculation. When your company is teetering on bankruptcy, you can't afford to speculate.


So were all the railroads teetering on bankruptcy when they engaged in whole hearted retrenchment?

No, but they were all lacking that crystal ball that told them which lines to keep, and which one to pitch. So, they did the only thing that anyone (you included) would have done. They analized current traffic, and predictable future business. They did what they felt was correct at the time, based on what they knew at the time-the same as you, or any other person would have had to do. To suggest otherwise, isn't quite realistic.


Back to a question Dave avoided in the past: Which lines, slated for abandonment today will be the heavy mainlines 20 or 30 years from now?


"Will be" or "could be"? The latter is the salient way to present the question, since the former is a pure guessing game.

Here's the proper way to ask that question: Which lines either abandoned or possibly slated for abandonment could concievably become heavy duty mainlines in the future if preserved/rebuilt?

And I have answered this before, but here we go again (with the terse version)

UP's Modoc line
BNSF's Havre-Great Falls line
BNSF's Great Falls-Helena line
BNSF's ex-SP&S line
The entire PCE
The ex-Cowboy line
The ex-GN Sandpoint to Spokane
The ex CSP Jaype line
The ex-GN Helena-Butte line
The ex-UP Weiser-New Meadows line
The ex-UP Burns (OR) line
The ex-UP Twin Falls - Wells line
The Tennesee Pass line
The ex-SF Prescott line

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