QUOTE: Originally posted by Character Sounds like there are not nearly so many dissatisfied customers as some would have us believe.
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal QUOTE: Originally posted by Character Sounds like there are not nearly so many dissatisfied customers as some would have us believe. Quotes from article: "But for many who rely on trains to ship their goods it has been -- at times -- a hassle." "Congestion on the tracks and a shortage of rail cars, not to mention rising prices, have all contributed to headaches for shippers and their customers." "With more freight moving through a rail system that has not been able to grow with demand, there has been occasional tension between railroads and their customers." "One of the biggest critics of the railroads is United Parcel Service, which complained to the Surface Transportation Board in Washington, D.C., last year that federal response is needed to address the capacity crunch." You see the glass half full, I see it half empty. BTW - This is a great article! Thanks for posting it. The "tell" however is in the finer print. There are several references to having the public bear the cost of new rail construction: "It has also brought to a head the need for improved rail infrastructure in the United States and perhaps a public-private partnership when it comes to paying for it." "Hamberger said the association would like Congress to provide tax credits to the railroads when they expand." "Martland believes Congress".....(that's you and me folks!)...." should finance more research on rail issues" "'Clearly, the railroads can't be asked to do it all,' Martland said. 'The public should help pay for the benefits of increased rail use, which include less highway congestion, less energy consumption and cleaner air. The railroads won't invest enough to get the full public benefits,' he said" Hmmmm, hasn't railroad retrenchment caused more, not less highway congestion? Hasn't the average truck haul to the nearest railhead increased fourfold since the 1960's? Surely Professor Martland knows that the public IS paying for loss of rail network coverage across the USA via increased truck road usage. But the funniest quote is the one from CSX spokesman Gary Sease in explaining why railroads won't keep up with current demand for fear of an economic downturn: "There's a saying in the industry. You don't build the church for Easter Sunday." Actually, you do build the church for your maximum capacity even if that capacity is only reached on special occasions. Ditto for your school gymnasium, your community theatre, your convention center...........the list is endless. And the saying, if indeed it is a current rail industry maxim, is idiotic. Only a fool builds a facility's capacity for the bare minimum.[D)] I will say there are a lot of ideas for improving rail capacity that I have promoted over the years. The UPS idea of a railroad trust fund paid for with fuel taxes on the railroads was seemingly lifted right from this forum and yours truly.[:p] And I am an advocate of using tax credits to fund rail infrastructure expansion, albeit only for lines which give opportunity for each rail shipper to have access to intramodal competition, aka the dreaded open access. Look, it boils down to this: If the railroads want the public to fund the rebuilding of lost capacity (perchance to expand rail capacity to new reaches[tup]), then the public deserves some semblence of public acces to that public/private property. Open access solves that tradeoff. Not so sure reregulation will accompli***hat end. I apologize if it seems I have hijacked another thread. I will now release the hostages.[;)]
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal QUOTE: Originally posted by Character Sounds like there are not nearly so many dissatisfied customers as some would have us believe. Hmmmm, hasn't railroad retrenchment caused more, not less highway congestion? Hasn't the average truck haul to the nearest railhead increased fourfold since the 1960's? Surely Professor Martland knows that the public IS paying for loss of rail network coverage across the USA via increased truck road usage. Actually, you do build the church for your maximum capacity even if that capacity is only reached on special occasions. Ditto for your school gymnasium, your community theatre, your convention center...........the list is endless. And the saying, if indeed it is a current rail industry maxim, is idiotic.
An "expensive model collector"
QUOTE: Originally posted by n012944 QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal QUOTE: Originally posted by Character Sounds like there are not nearly so many dissatisfied customers as some would have us believe. Hmmmm, hasn't railroad retrenchment caused more, not less highway congestion? Hasn't the average truck haul to the nearest railhead increased fourfold since the 1960's? Surely Professor Martland knows that the public IS paying for loss of rail network coverage across the USA via increased truck road usage. Actually, you do build the church for your maximum capacity even if that capacity is only reached on special occasions. Ditto for your school gymnasium, your community theatre, your convention center...........the list is endless. And the saying, if indeed it is a current rail industry maxim, is idiotic. Maybe the average truck haul going up has more to do with the Interstate highway system just getting into high gear during the 60's then the loss of railroads. And for you list of things you build for max capacity, I find it ironic that almost all the things you list are built with goverment money, so profit is not an issue. I guess Dave wants railroads to be paying for four track mains when the economy crashes and there is only enough traffic to support two. That is how companies go bankrupt. Bert
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal QUOTE: Originally posted by n012944 QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal QUOTE: Originally posted by Character Sounds like there are not nearly so many dissatisfied customers as some would have us believe. Hmmmm, hasn't railroad retrenchment caused more, not less highway congestion? Hasn't the average truck haul to the nearest railhead increased fourfold since the 1960's? Surely Professor Martland knows that the public IS paying for loss of rail network coverage across the USA via increased truck road usage. Actually, you do build the church for your maximum capacity even if that capacity is only reached on special occasions. Ditto for your school gymnasium, your community theatre, your convention center...........the list is endless. And the saying, if indeed it is a current rail industry maxim, is idiotic. Maybe the average truck haul going up has more to do with the Interstate highway system just getting into high gear during the 60's then the loss of railroads. And for you list of things you build for max capacity, I find it ironic that almost all the things you list are built with goverment money, so profit is not an issue. I guess Dave wants railroads to be paying for four track mains when the economy crashes and there is only enough traffic to support two. That is how companies go bankrupt. Bert Churches are private. Many schools are private. Theatres are private. Most convention centers are private (usually associated with a corresponding hotel or motel). I find it ironic you think most of those things are from the government. I think it would be in the rail industry's best interests to adopt some other maxim other than "You don't build the church for Easter Sunday". Clearly none of these guys go to church. How about "We really f*****d up! We bad!"[}:)]
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QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal Question for the so-called yet undocumented attorney: When one plans to build a hotel, does he/she build for the expected average occupancy? Or does he/she build for the maximum occupancy? Hint: The question is rhetorical to all but those in the rail industry.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Character QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal Question for the so-called yet undocumented attorney: When one plans to build a hotel, does he/she build for the expected average occupancy? Or does he/she build for the maximum occupancy? Hint: The question is rhetorical to all but those in the rail industry. If you build everything for the maximum possible occupancy you'll go bankrupt every time. To say nothing of the fact that you'll never get the chance as your banks or other financial sources won't let you build something HUGE without justification. Why are business plans required, do you imagine, oops, forgot, you don't have an imagination. Obviously you've never actually had to run a business, a nice addition to your vacuous lack of credentials.
QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal QUOTE: Originally posted by Character QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal Question for the so-called yet undocumented attorney: When one plans to build a hotel, does he/she build for the expected average occupancy? Or does he/she build for the maximum occupancy? Hint: The question is rhetorical to all but those in the rail industry. If you build everything for the maximum possible occupancy you'll go bankrupt every time. To say nothing of the fact that you'll never get the chance as your banks or other financial sources won't let you build something HUGE without justification. Why are business plans required, do you imagine, oops, forgot, you don't have an imagination. Obviously you've never actually had to run a business, a nice addition to your vacuous lack of credentials. So all those hotels and motels are going bankrupt every time? Those resturants that build seating capacity for the Easter Sunday crowd have all gone bankrupt? All those movie theatres built for the next big blockbuster movie have all gone bankrupt? You build for the max, not the mean. Maybe if the railroads had adopted that maxim along with the rest of the business world, they wouldn't be lobbying the government for financial aid to rebuild their lost capacity from a few decades ago. BTW, all the credentials in the world mean nothing without a legal name to go with 'em.[;)]
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb Hey Dave how about you get those New York bankers to open their purses so the railroads can build those 4 main lines. Those buildings you mentioned are either built with Tax or Tax-Exempt funds. They are not required to answer to investors and bankers. The exception may be private schols that are built with generous endowments. I know of no RR's that can afford the luxury of living for Easter Sundays.
QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton I guess in futuremodal's alternate universe idle assets have no cost. Could that mean they came free in the first place? Maybe someday a science will find a way to break through and we can get all that no cost stuff.
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb Hey Dave how about you get those New York bankers to open their purses so the railroads can build those 4 main lines. Those buildings you mentioned are either built with Tax or Tax-Exempt funds. They are not required to answer to investors and bankers. The exception may be private schols that are built with generous endowments. I know of no RR's that can afford the luxury of living for Easter Sundays. The big difference of course is that the RR's, (unlike hotels, movie theatres, etc) had the capacity a few decades ago but gave it all away for some proverbial magic beans. Now they want it back, and they want the taxpayers to foot the bill. The reason is quite understandable: Litigatory spectors haunt all such projects these days. That's why DM&E needs federal help for a project that everyone seems to agree is right for the times. How many New York bankers want their investment funds tied up in frivolous lawsuits for years on end? And BTW, most hotels and such are paid for by private investment.
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal The cost of keeping rails in place is a fraction of what it costs to rebuild an abandoned line or build a whole new line. Keeping a line mothballed for 20 or 30 years is much less costly than having to rebuild that line after abandonment.
QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal The cost of keeping rails in place is a fraction of what it costs to rebuild an abandoned line or build a whole new line. Keeping a line mothballed for 20 or 30 years is much less costly than having to rebuild that line after abandonment. But again, you're talking about a cost to a railroad that doesn't have enough money to pay the bills for the part that is operating. And the idea that you'll need a given line in 20 or 30 years is pure speculation. When your company is teetering on bankruptcy, you can't afford to speculate.
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal The cost of keeping rails in place is a fraction of what it costs to rebuild an abandoned line or build a whole new line. Keeping a line mothballed for 20 or 30 years is much less costly than having to rebuild that line after abandonment. But again, you're talking about a cost to a railroad that doesn't have enough money to pay the bills for the part that is operating. And the idea that you'll need a given line in 20 or 30 years is pure speculation. When your company is teetering on bankruptcy, you can't afford to speculate. So were all the railroads teetering on bankruptcy when they engaged in whole hearted retrenchment?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal The cost of keeping rails in place is a fraction of what it costs to rebuild an abandoned line or build a whole new line. Keeping a line mothballed for 20 or 30 years is much less costly than having to rebuild that line after abandonment. But again, you're talking about a cost to a railroad that doesn't have enough money to pay the bills for the part that is operating. And the idea that you'll need a given line in 20 or 30 years is pure speculation. When your company is teetering on bankruptcy, you can't afford to speculate. So were all the railroads teetering on bankruptcy when they engaged in whole hearted retrenchment? No, but they were all lacking that crystal ball that told them which lines to keep, and which one to pitch. So, they did the only thing that anyone (you included) would have done. They analized current traffic, and predictable future business. They did what they felt was correct at the time, based on what they knew at the time-the same as you, or any other person would have had to do. To suggest otherwise, isn't quite realistic.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Character QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb Hey Dave how about you get those New York bankers to open their purses so the railroads can build those 4 main lines. Those buildings you mentioned are either built with Tax or Tax-Exempt funds. They are not required to answer to investors and bankers. The exception may be private schols that are built with generous endowments. I know of no RR's that can afford the luxury of living for Easter Sundays. The big difference of course is that the RR's, (unlike hotels, movie theatres, etc) had the capacity a few decades ago but gave it all away for some proverbial magic beans. Now they want it back, and they want the taxpayers to foot the bill. The reason is quite understandable: Litigatory spectors haunt all such projects these days. That's why DM&E needs federal help for a project that everyone seems to agree is right for the times. How many New York bankers want their investment funds tied up in frivolous lawsuits for years on end? And BTW, most hotels and such are paid for by private investment. Real financial type from Wall Street and many other places are throwing cash at railroads right now, or haven't you noticed the steep rise in share prices among those publicly traded. Further, even short lines enjoy a rich investment environment these days. In the railroad financial meetings I attend each year I hear more enthusiasm than fear of lawsuits. Litigation is a risk of doing business like anything else. Investors are far more afraid of the government than of the courts...
QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal The cost of keeping rails in place is a fraction of what it costs to rebuild an abandoned line or build a whole new line. Keeping a line mothballed for 20 or 30 years is much less costly than having to rebuild that line after abandonment. But again, you're talking about a cost to a railroad that doesn't have enough money to pay the bills for the part that is operating. And the idea that you'll need a given line in 20 or 30 years is pure speculation. When your company is teetering on bankruptcy, you can't afford to speculate. So were all the railroads teetering on bankruptcy when they engaged in whole hearted retrenchment? No, but they were all lacking that crystal ball that told them which lines to keep, and which one to pitch. So, they did the only thing that anyone (you included) would have done. They analized current traffic, and predictable future business. They did what they felt was correct at the time, based on what they knew at the time-the same as you, or any other person would have had to do. To suggest otherwise, isn't quite realistic. Back to a question Dave avoided in the past: Which lines, slated for abandonment today will be the heavy mainlines 20 or 30 years from now?
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