Should I become an Engineer?

[David3]

I am 14 years old and I would like to ask everybody on the forums if I should become an engineer, because I really want to. I would like everybody else's opinion because I read the remote control in the TRAINS Magazine. And I would just like to know if any of you think there would still be a job left for me by the time I am 21. And I would also like to know what everybody thinks about me choosing this career.... I mean if it is a good choice or not. Any posts would be appreciated, thank you. David

[David3]

I am 14 years old and I would like to ask everybody on the forums if I should become an engineer, because I really want to. I would like everybody else's opinion because I read the remote control in the TRAINS Magazine. And I would just like to know if any of you think there would still be a job left for me by the time I am 21. And I would also like to know what everybody thinks about me choosing this career.... I mean if it is a good choice or not. Any posts would be appreciated, thank you. David

[Anonymous]

I am also thinking about the career with the railroad. Not just an engineer. I am 16.
Do you guys think it's worth it?
Alaska Railroad is offering some kind of a school partnership program where high school students are trained to become the tour guides on trains. I don't know if you actually get paid for that, but its pretty popular in local high schools.

[Anonymous]

I am also thinking about the career with the railroad. Not just an engineer. I am 16.
Do you guys think it's worth it?
Alaska Railroad is offering some kind of a school partnership program where high school students are trained to become the tour guides on trains. I don't know if you actually get paid for that, but its pretty popular in local high schools.

[jeffhergert]

Yes, David, there will still be railroad jobs when you turn 21.
I think no matter what technology brings, and they have been trying to perfect completely automated operations since before you were born, there will always be at least one person on board. Like the article stated, to have crewless trains you'ld have to have grade separated right of ways and that wouldn't be cheap or politically feasible in some areas. Also, when (not if) the automated control failed, you would want someone who could put the train in manual operation and continue. On a busy mainline time is money and delays can cost.
If you would like to be an engineer, I would say to follow that dream. I would also say to have some other interest career wise to fall back on in case no one's hiring at that time in your area or more importantly, you try railroading and decide you don't like it.
Since I don't know you I can't say if it's a good choice for you or not. It's hard on family life depending on what company you hire out on. On a major carrier where you work is determined by seniority. My seniority district covers all of my home state. You may live in one city but be forced to work out of another terminal 4 or 5 hours drive away. If you work an extra board (usually what a junior employe can hold) you're subject to call any time, any day with no set day off.
In addition, you may be at the bottom of the roster for awhile. If things slow up, you most likely will get furloughed. We've had people who trained six or seven months, were set-up as conductors, then a day or two later furloughed. Many don't come back when recalled. (This is also a reason to have something else to fall back on.)
I can tell you it was a good choice for me. When I was your age, I was lucky. the railroads still had depots and station agent/train order operators. I spent Saturdays with the local agent. He tried to direct me into something else. When he couldn't he taught me about how and why railroads worked. He told me what to expect for working hours and conditions. He told me to expect to be furloughed often for the first five or so years. (Luckily, I have not been furloughed, although I was youngest man seniority wise working for a couple of weeks my first year.) It took me many years get on because where I live there was a long dry spell for hiring, but I never gave up, and I'm glad I didn't. There are times I cuss the railroad (actually the company, not the job), but I'd never give it up.
So David, I'll conclude by saying I think the choice of a railroad career and lifestyle will be there for you, only you can ultimately decide if it is good or not.

[jeffhergert]

Yes, David, there will still be railroad jobs when you turn 21.
I think no matter what technology brings, and they have been trying to perfect completely automated operations since before you were born, there will always be at least one person on board. Like the article stated, to have crewless trains you'ld have to have grade separated right of ways and that wouldn't be cheap or politically feasible in some areas. Also, when (not if) the automated control failed, you would want someone who could put the train in manual operation and continue. On a busy mainline time is money and delays can cost.
If you would like to be an engineer, I would say to follow that dream. I would also say to have some other interest career wise to fall back on in case no one's hiring at that time in your area or more importantly, you try railroading and decide you don't like it.
Since I don't know you I can't say if it's a good choice for you or not. It's hard on family life depending on what company you hire out on. On a major carrier where you work is determined by seniority. My seniority district covers all of my home state. You may live in one city but be forced to work out of another terminal 4 or 5 hours drive away. If you work an extra board (usually what a junior employe can hold) you're subject to call any time, any day with no set day off.
In addition, you may be at the bottom of the roster for awhile. If things slow up, you most likely will get furloughed. We've had people who trained six or seven months, were set-up as conductors, then a day or two later furloughed. Many don't come back when recalled. (This is also a reason to have something else to fall back on.)
I can tell you it was a good choice for me. When I was your age, I was lucky. the railroads still had depots and station agent/train order operators. I spent Saturdays with the local agent. He tried to direct me into something else. When he couldn't he taught me about how and why railroads worked. He told me what to expect for working hours and conditions. He told me to expect to be furloughed often for the first five or so years. (Luckily, I have not been furloughed, although I was youngest man seniority wise working for a couple of weeks my first year.) It took me many years get on because where I live there was a long dry spell for hiring, but I never gave up, and I'm glad I didn't. There are times I cuss the railroad (actually the company, not the job), but I'd never give it up.
So David, I'll conclude by saying I think the choice of a railroad career and lifestyle will be there for you, only you can ultimately decide if it is good or not.

[edblysard]

Hi David and Alex,

If you really want to become engineers, then yes, by all means, give it a shot.
Be forewarned, most railroads start you out as switchmen/conductors, which means you will be throwing switches and pounding rocks for at least 5 years before you gain enough seniority to get into a engineers class.

But this also helps with your education, because you start from the ground up, you know all the steps involved with the work, nothing will come as a surprise.
My current engineer started out at 16 in a MOW gang, at 24, he is shaping up to be a fairly good hogger.

If you can get your foot in the door, and stand the odd hours, give it a try.
You will know within a week or two if this is for you.

I strongly suggest that both of you get your educations finished first, if for no other reason than limiting yourself to a blue collar job has just that, limits.

Take a real hard look at railroading for what it is, not what magazines portray it as.
The romance of running the Super Chief, the Zeyphers, and hot shot Blue Streaks isnt really there, and never really was.
It is hard, demanding , often boring work, interspaced with moments of sheer terror.
It carries a huge responsibility too, both the conductor and the engineer are responsible for some of the most dangerous cargo you could imagine.

But if its for you, you will know real soon.

And once you start, and like it, you will find it hard to quit.

Good luck to you both, stay in school, get the smarts, then come railroading.

See ya on the high iron,
Ed

[edblysard]

Hi David and Alex,

If you really want to become engineers, then yes, by all means, give it a shot.
Be forewarned, most railroads start you out as switchmen/conductors, which means you will be throwing switches and pounding rocks for at least 5 years before you gain enough seniority to get into a engineers class.

But this also helps with your education, because you start from the ground up, you know all the steps involved with the work, nothing will come as a surprise.
My current engineer started out at 16 in a MOW gang, at 24, he is shaping up to be a fairly good hogger.

If you can get your foot in the door, and stand the odd hours, give it a try.
You will know within a week or two if this is for you.

I strongly suggest that both of you get your educations finished first, if for no other reason than limiting yourself to a blue collar job has just that, limits.

Take a real hard look at railroading for what it is, not what magazines portray it as.
The romance of running the Super Chief, the Zeyphers, and hot shot Blue Streaks isnt really there, and never really was.
It is hard, demanding , often boring work, interspaced with moments of sheer terror.
It carries a huge responsibility too, both the conductor and the engineer are responsible for some of the most dangerous cargo you could imagine.

But if its for you, you will know real soon.

And once you start, and like it, you will find it hard to quit.

Good luck to you both, stay in school, get the smarts, then come railroading.

See ya on the high iron,
Ed

[Anonymous]

"Livestyle" is the best way to describe it. it is unlike any job I've had. I would say I enjoyed the ground rather than the seat.....I enjoyed the "card game" of switching! I never really liked the road, and I found my niche was to be a yard bird.
Although now I have a "normal" job with daylight hours far away from the tracks, there is not a DAY that I don't think back to those midnight goats....I really enjoyed it!

Good luck to you

David Wallace

[Anonymous]

"Livestyle" is the best way to describe it. it is unlike any job I've had. I would say I enjoyed the ground rather than the seat.....I enjoyed the "card game" of switching! I never really liked the road, and I found my niche was to be a yard bird.
Although now I have a "normal" job with daylight hours far away from the tracks, there is not a DAY that I don't think back to those midnight goats....I really enjoyed it!

Good luck to you

David Wallace

[cabforward]

you are wise to research a field that interests you..

education is vital.. r.r. crew positions require no more than a h.s. diploma.. but r.rs. do want the smartest and hardest-working candidates to apply..

work to the max in all subjects.. there are no subjects in particular that will help in r.r.-ing, and none that will break you.. do your best in everything.. it shows maturity in pursuing a goal and determination to capture it..

look for hobby clubs, railfan clubs, anyplace where r.r. veterans gather.. they will give you the 'real deal' perspective on what the job is like.. also visit the r.r. websites.. see what jobs they have open, what they require to join, what they provide in training, what they expect from workers in responding to calls to work.. also firms that do employee-recruiting for the r.rs..

stamina is vital.. that is working for hours under stressful conditions and being ready to accept more if necessary..

stamina is being in top physical shape.. if you have read the job description, you know the drill.. if not--

crews work in every kind of weather-- hot cold, wet, dry, humid.. they work in storms (rain, sleet, wind, dust).. they walk miles over gravel roadbed to check car connections.. they may have to haul eqpt. a distance from the engine to a car which has a broken part.. the coupler knuckle weighs 80+ lbs..

veterans who post here say they have never carried a knuckle and they are lucky.. if you are on a road crew which crosses a steep grade or makes an emergency stop, there is a fair chance you may have to haul a knuckle from the engine to the car whose knuckle needs replacement..

r.r.-ing is dirty, dangerous work.. 'nuff said

stress happens off the job.. you may work 12 hrs, rest 12, and be called back for another 12, day after day..

you may work an easy tour in a yard, spend several days on a line 200 miles from home, return home, have one day off and be called to work another site a hundred miles from home, or you may work in the yard again.. in a distant assignment, you may drive yourself or the r.r. will hire a cab or contract driver to chauffeur you, on their dime..

you may wake up and not know where you are until you turn on a light and look around the room..

you could do these kinds of things for years on the e.b. before you are asked (ordered) to report for engineer school..

my wish was to take a position on a short line, where a small organization is more likely to take a personal interest in a crewman's welfare, or a terminal r.r., as in ed's case.. the small outfit is, by nature, going to have a more informal environment where the working relationship is more personal and friendlier.. this means sitting with your crew or superior and having open talks about whatever's important to you..

i have never worked on a r.r., and other members of this forum will know better than i, but it seems to be sensible to me.. if i'm wrong, i'll catch it, for sure..

if you want to prepare yourself for a r.r. career from now until 18 or whatever the age is, the 2 best areas to concentrate on are academics and physical stamina.. if you're athletic, you're 80% there..

the next area is locating r.r. workers (active & retired) at hobby shops & clubs, and railfan excursions.. you can find these on this website or another one..

the last thing is to continue researching the industry: websites offered by r.rs. and companies that supply workers to r.rs..
find out what the firms offer career-wise, what they require of candidates.. decide where you want to make your home district.. have your choices ready 1, 2, 3..

a r.r. can work you daily until they decide to work the next person under you.. they can call you anytime with 90 min or 2 hrs. notice.. no negotiation, no 'sorry, i'm at a cook-out with my friends..'

you would do better to carry a pager or cell-phone than rely on an answering machine.. most people do nowadays.. not hearing your pager or a dead battery is no excuse for the r.r.. there is no excuse which is a good excuse..

having read this and still wanting to join the r.r., you may just be crazy enough to make it.. well, pray to god that he orders your soul delivered directly to him, 'cause your a** belongs to the r.r..

[cabforward]

you are wise to research a field that interests you..

education is vital.. r.r. crew positions require no more than a h.s. diploma.. but r.rs. do want the smartest and hardest-working candidates to apply..

work to the max in all subjects.. there are no subjects in particular that will help in r.r.-ing, and none that will break you.. do your best in everything.. it shows maturity in pursuing a goal and determination to capture it..

look for hobby clubs, railfan clubs, anyplace where r.r. veterans gather.. they will give you the 'real deal' perspective on what the job is like.. also visit the r.r. websites.. see what jobs they have open, what they require to join, what they provide in training, what they expect from workers in responding to calls to work.. also firms that do employee-recruiting for the r.rs..

stamina is vital.. that is working for hours under stressful conditions and being ready to accept more if necessary..

stamina is being in top physical shape.. if you have read the job description, you know the drill.. if not--

crews work in every kind of weather-- hot cold, wet, dry, humid.. they work in storms (rain, sleet, wind, dust).. they walk miles over gravel roadbed to check car connections.. they may have to haul eqpt. a distance from the engine to a car which has a broken part.. the coupler knuckle weighs 80+ lbs..

veterans who post here say they have never carried a knuckle and they are lucky.. if you are on a road crew which crosses a steep grade or makes an emergency stop, there is a fair chance you may have to haul a knuckle from the engine to the car whose knuckle needs replacement..

r.r.-ing is dirty, dangerous work.. 'nuff said

stress happens off the job.. you may work 12 hrs, rest 12, and be called back for another 12, day after day..

you may work an easy tour in a yard, spend several days on a line 200 miles from home, return home, have one day off and be called to work another site a hundred miles from home, or you may work in the yard again.. in a distant assignment, you may drive yourself or the r.r. will hire a cab or contract driver to chauffeur you, on their dime..

you may wake up and not know where you are until you turn on a light and look around the room..

you could do these kinds of things for years on the e.b. before you are asked (ordered) to report for engineer school..

my wish was to take a position on a short line, where a small organization is more likely to take a personal interest in a crewman's welfare, or a terminal r.r., as in ed's case.. the small outfit is, by nature, going to have a more informal environment where the working relationship is more personal and friendlier.. this means sitting with your crew or superior and having open talks about whatever's important to you..

i have never worked on a r.r., and other members of this forum will know better than i, but it seems to be sensible to me.. if i'm wrong, i'll catch it, for sure..

if you want to prepare yourself for a r.r. career from now until 18 or whatever the age is, the 2 best areas to concentrate on are academics and physical stamina.. if you're athletic, you're 80% there..

the next area is locating r.r. workers (active & retired) at hobby shops & clubs, and railfan excursions.. you can find these on this website or another one..

the last thing is to continue researching the industry: websites offered by r.rs. and companies that supply workers to r.rs..
find out what the firms offer career-wise, what they require of candidates.. decide where you want to make your home district.. have your choices ready 1, 2, 3..

a r.r. can work you daily until they decide to work the next person under you.. they can call you anytime with 90 min or 2 hrs. notice.. no negotiation, no 'sorry, i'm at a cook-out with my friends..'

you would do better to carry a pager or cell-phone than rely on an answering machine.. most people do nowadays.. not hearing your pager or a dead battery is no excuse for the r.r.. there is no excuse which is a good excuse..

having read this and still wanting to join the r.r., you may just be crazy enough to make it.. well, pray to god that he orders your soul delivered directly to him, 'cause your a** belongs to the r.r..

[JoeKoh]

I am not going to say either way ed and cabforward already said it.You'll have your good days and then you'll have like last weekend for the Csx folks.bad and slow.Finish your schooling first and good luck.
stay safe
joe

[JoeKoh]

I am not going to say either way ed and cabforward already said it.You'll have your good days and then you'll have like last weekend for the Csx folks.bad and slow.Finish your schooling first and good luck.
stay safe
joe

[Anonymous]

I say go for it![:D] I am 15 my self and plan to work for the Manufacturers Railway here in St. Louis, they operate around 42 miles of track, and since they are owned by Anheiser-Busch, I am sure they pay very well. To become an engineer has been my life long dream, and I will let no one stand in my way of accomplishing it.[;)]

[Anonymous]

I say go for it![:D] I am 15 my self and plan to work for the Manufacturers Railway here in St. Louis, they operate around 42 miles of track, and since they are owned by Anheiser-Busch, I am sure they pay very well. To become an engineer has been my life long dream, and I will let no one stand in my way of accomplishing it.[;)]

[Trainnut484]

Both of you, David and Alex, are doing great by looking before you jump into a career. I'm guessing that by the time you get to my post here you've figured out that RRs are NOT a 8a-5p, MON-FRI job. Jeffhergert has explained it all especially when it comes to senority. If you do choose to become a RR trainman, you'll be missing family holidays and birthdays. That's part of the stress on family life. My late father was a rr trainman, and he missed some birthdays and holidays.

The smartest thing to do is finish your education and get your AS/BA degrees. That will be your safety net in case RR life isn't for you.

Take care[:)].

Russell

[Trainnut484]

Both of you, David and Alex, are doing great by looking before you jump into a career. I'm guessing that by the time you get to my post here you've figured out that RRs are NOT a 8a-5p, MON-FRI job. Jeffhergert has explained it all especially when it comes to senority. If you do choose to become a RR trainman, you'll be missing family holidays and birthdays. That's part of the stress on family life. My late father was a rr trainman, and he missed some birthdays and holidays.

The smartest thing to do is finish your education and get your AS/BA degrees. That will be your safety net in case RR life isn't for you.

Take care[:)].

Russell

[David3]

I would like to thank all of you that replied so far, and it makes me feel good that you all think I have a shot at it.

[David3]

I would like to thank all of you that replied so far, and it makes me feel good that you all think I have a shot at it.

[Anonymous]

YES. My father was an Engineer for the B&O & when I was old enough there were no openings for Firemen, (Engineer-in-Training) so I became a Clerk/Yardmaster in Willard, Ohio. Railroading is a VERY SPECIAL and when you get into that type of work it gets in your blood and you never get over it. I still love Railroading and a friend was able to get us a ride from Williams, AZ to Flagstaff, AZ in the cab VERY THRILLING.

[Anonymous]

YES. My father was an Engineer for the B&O & when I was old enough there were no openings for Firemen, (Engineer-in-Training) so I became a Clerk/Yardmaster in Willard, Ohio. Railroading is a VERY SPECIAL and when you get into that type of work it gets in your blood and you never get over it. I still love Railroading and a friend was able to get us a ride from Williams, AZ to Flagstaff, AZ in the cab VERY THRILLING.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by David3

I am 14 years old and I would like to ask everybody on the forums if I should become an engineer, because I really want to. I would like everybody else's opinion because I read the remote control in the TRAINS Magazine. And I would just like to know if any of you think there would still be a job left for me by the time I am 21. And I would also like to know what everybody thinks about me choosing this career.... I mean if it is a good choice or not. Any posts would be appreciated, thank you. David

To all who want to work for a railroad I say GO FOR IT. In life you need to do something you like to do, and what can be better but getting paid to do what you like.
I past on the chance when I had it and have regretted it ever since. I had my reasons but now I really wish I would have tried. So don't let anything stop you.

Now the railroaders can comment on this--Is it worthwhile for these young men to go to a place like the Modac Railroad Academy? They do advertise in the Trains mag. Would this be an asset that might give them a competive edge?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by David3

I am 14 years old and I would like to ask everybody on the forums if I should become an engineer, because I really want to. I would like everybody else's opinion because I read the remote control in the TRAINS Magazine. And I would just like to know if any of you think there would still be a job left for me by the time I am 21. And I would also like to know what everybody thinks about me choosing this career.... I mean if it is a good choice or not. Any posts would be appreciated, thank you. David

To all who want to work for a railroad I say GO FOR IT. In life you need to do something you like to do, and what can be better but getting paid to do what you like.
I past on the chance when I had it and have regretted it ever since. I had my reasons but now I really wish I would have tried. So don't let anything stop you.

Now the railroaders can comment on this--Is it worthwhile for these young men to go to a place like the Modac Railroad Academy? They do advertise in the Trains mag. Would this be an asset that might give them a competive edge?

[wabash1]

Railroading is fun and adventuring. the first thing you need is the high school education. Then if you are serious about hiring on the railroad after reading all this then go for it. the main thing railroads are looking for is common sense. if you dont have that or lack of it. you wont get hired. class 1 railroads want team players not know it alls. act like you are wanting to learn and look very interested when you are interviewed. most class 1 railroads want to train you and wont hire you if you went to school to learn this. I have seen guys from other railroads not get hired becouse the way other railroads do things is ot the way we do it. and hired a guy off the street who delivered pizza for a living. And it helps to have a friend ( or make a friend) who works for the railroad he can submit your name and get you in faster.

the hours well Ive always been a night owl anyways there is no set hours its call when needed unless you have a regular job you hold. just becouse you are new dont mean you will be stuck to the extra-board. but be fore warned that you will work 7 days a week ( or be avalible) 24 hrs a day if you want to go out with family take the cell phone. be prepared to be disappointed that you had to leave early. a miss call is almost as bad as commiting murder to the railroad. in other words unless you are on vacation or a day off approved by the train master then you belong to the railroad. like the military ( this is how the railroad works) you keep them happy and they stay off your back.

that is just some of the bad stuff, now the fun stuff. you mount your engines 3 sd 60s 6000 tons 1.5 mile long train. knock the brakes off get a notch on the throttle and start moving out of town. get your train up to track spped adjusting the throttle as needed running 50 mph going past house farms people. need power to pull the hill get a few notches listen to those horses start running. feel the power. 1 of the few jobs where at a young age you get control of 1 million in freight and 1-2 million in equipment and its yours to decided how it is to be moved. the responseability involved. would i give it up. no way. railroading is not for everyone. at age 8 i knew what i wanted and i have it.

things by other posters are true. if you want it you know it. and nothing will stop you. I never get up and complain about going to work in fact there is times i wait and beg the phone to ring. crazy maybe, i have a life outside of the job. you just learn how to work around it.

[wabash1]

Railroading is fun and adventuring. the first thing you need is the high school education. Then if you are serious about hiring on the railroad after reading all this then go for it. the main thing railroads are looking for is common sense. if you dont have that or lack of it. you wont get hired. class 1 railroads want team players not know it alls. act like you are wanting to learn and look very interested when you are interviewed. most class 1 railroads want to train you and wont hire you if you went to school to learn this. I have seen guys from other railroads not get hired becouse the way other railroads do things is ot the way we do it. and hired a guy off the street who delivered pizza for a living. And it helps to have a friend ( or make a friend) who works for the railroad he can submit your name and get you in faster.

the hours well Ive always been a night owl anyways there is no set hours its call when needed unless you have a regular job you hold. just becouse you are new dont mean you will be stuck to the extra-board. but be fore warned that you will work 7 days a week ( or be avalible) 24 hrs a day if you want to go out with family take the cell phone. be prepared to be disappointed that you had to leave early. a miss call is almost as bad as commiting murder to the railroad. in other words unless you are on vacation or a day off approved by the train master then you belong to the railroad. like the military ( this is how the railroad works) you keep them happy and they stay off your back.

that is just some of the bad stuff, now the fun stuff. you mount your engines 3 sd 60s 6000 tons 1.5 mile long train. knock the brakes off get a notch on the throttle and start moving out of town. get your train up to track spped adjusting the throttle as needed running 50 mph going past house farms people. need power to pull the hill get a few notches listen to those horses start running. feel the power. 1 of the few jobs where at a young age you get control of 1 million in freight and 1-2 million in equipment and its yours to decided how it is to be moved. the responseability involved. would i give it up. no way. railroading is not for everyone. at age 8 i knew what i wanted and i have it.

things by other posters are true. if you want it you know it. and nothing will stop you. I never get up and complain about going to work in fact there is times i wait and beg the phone to ring. crazy maybe, i have a life outside of the job. you just learn how to work around it.

[jrw249]

Sounds good, however, still a hard decision to make when you are married and realize that the railroad is going to own you.

[jrw249]

Sounds good, however, still a hard decision to make when you are married and realize that the railroad is going to own you.

[Anonymous]

Alot of guys that hire on the BNSF go to JCCC (choo choo u). I didn't, I had prior RR experience in MOW type crap. Too bad you guys aren't a little older now cause we are hiring like mad! Why, I don't know....this last class in my terminal will be lucky to work when they mark up. I can't tell you about eastern RRs. But out West (of the Mississippi) you will still go through the conductor's training even if you go to a school for RRing. Try it, it will suck! But by the time you figure that out, it will be too late and the RR will have claimed one more soal. I liken working for the RR to chewing tobacco.........It is nasty, bad for you, and chicks find it unattractive..........but for some reason, you can't quit doing it.....go figure.
Ken

[Anonymous]

Alot of guys that hire on the BNSF go to JCCC (choo choo u). I didn't, I had prior RR experience in MOW type crap. Too bad you guys aren't a little older now cause we are hiring like mad! Why, I don't know....this last class in my terminal will be lucky to work when they mark up. I can't tell you about eastern RRs. But out West (of the Mississippi) you will still go through the conductor's training even if you go to a school for RRing. Try it, it will suck! But by the time you figure that out, it will be too late and the RR will have claimed one more soal. I liken working for the RR to chewing tobacco.........It is nasty, bad for you, and chicks find it unattractive..........but for some reason, you can't quit doing it.....go figure.
Ken