Raymond Loewy

[Anonymous]

Side note: I see that PRR had a " Bureau of New Ideas" thay MAY have been the source of the name for the original image linked to earlier.

[Anonymous]

Possible closure

Excerpt "The PRR also had plans for large Loewy-designed class V1 Baldwin steam-turbine-electrics similar to the C&O units but they were canceled before metal was cut."

From

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/turbine/

[Poppa_Zit]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

Possible closure

Naaaaa. I think the amazing thing is that Streamlining steam locomotives made them look like they were moving while sitting still.

Looking at my photographs of today's trains, those diesels look like they're sitting still when they're moving. [:D]

[Anonymous]

lOOKS like PRR V.P. "Deasy" was involved.

Typical Loewy billing conflict in the making, with no project authorization from the board


More excerpts:

"June 22, 1944
VP in Charge of Operations John F. Deasy requests development of experimental Class V1 2-D+2-D streamlined steam turbine locomotive;
development work begins without formal authorization from Board."


as well as:

" Apr. 12, 1944
Mechanical Engineer's office issues specification drawing for proposed
Class V1 4-8-4-8 steam turbine "Triplex"; twin turbines developing
9,000 HP with top speed of 100 MPH; 48" drivers; total weight
882,000#; starting drawbar pull 115,000#. "

Both from

http://www.prrths.com/Hagley/PRR1944%20Aug%2004.wd.pdf


Probably one or the other

[PBenham]

The reason PRR didn't build that turbine, was rooted in S2 #6200, which was simpler in design, but very[xx(] costly to maintain and keep out on the road. It also was thirsty and hungry, not an encouraging situation, in 1946 with the [8]financial heat on. The Turbine-Electric concept shown died when the C&O's "Chessie" Turbine Electrics, proved to be underwhelming performers, and lots of more reasonably priced and easier to run EMD E7s were available! The other builder's passenger diesels wound up in freight service, or on the NY&LB, a service which would not have been right for turbines of any sort!

[Modelcar]

With the advent of the modern diesel engines....any steam project had little chance of success in my opinion. Just add as many diesel units together as needed to move the train in question and not even necessary to add any more crew members.
Plus we all know the diesel trumped any steamer in spades with maintenance and reliability and all the support staff and equipment needed along the hundreds of miles was now unnecessary....So reliability, versatility, less maintenance and much less support staff needed = better bottom line.

[M636C]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

lOOKS like PRR V.P. "Deasy" was involved.

Typical Loewy billing conflict in the making, with no project authorization from the board


More excerpts:

"June 22, 1944
VP in Charge of Operations John F. Deasy requests development of experimental Class V1 2-D+2-D streamlined steam turbine locomotive;
development work begins without formal authorization from Board."


as well as:

" Apr. 12, 1944
Mechanical Engineer's office issues specification drawing for proposed
Class V1 4-8-4-8 steam turbine "Triplex"; twin turbines developing
9,000 HP with top speed of 100 MPH; 48" drivers; total weight
882,000#; starting drawbar pull 115,000#. "

Both from

http://www.prrths.com/Hagley/PRR1944%20Aug%2004.wd.pdf


Probably one or the other

While the body design of the V-1 Turbine is virtually the same as the model in the illustration posted, it had four axle bogies (2-D+2-D) while the model in the illustration is a Duplex with visible cylinders and motion. The V-1 Turbine is illustrated in Wolfgang Stoffells "Lokomotivbau und Dampftechnik" on page 283 where it is described as "Entwurf einer Auspuffturbinenlok mit elektrischer Kraftubertragung aus dem jahre 1948" (Design for a non condensing turbine locomotive with electric transmission from 1948). This is basically the C&O locomotive with a Loewy "skin".(Maybe the date was lost in translation)

The Duplex model in the photo would have looked the same, but had coupling rods and cylinders clearly not used on a turbine. I suspect this would have been an earlier design, and that Loewy "recycled" the shell design for the turbine. The turbine artist's impression is a dark colour, but it has the word "Pennsylvania" spread down the side and the tender streamlined to look like part of a single unit, just like the model duplex in the illustration.

M636C

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

. The V-1 Turbine is illustrated in Wolfgang Stoffells "Lokomotivbau und Dampftechnik" on page 283 where it is described as "Entwurf einer Auspuffturbinenlok mit elektrischer Kraftubertragung aus dem jahre 1948" (Design for a non condensing turbine locomotive with electric transmission from 1948). This is basically the C&O locomotive with a Loewy "skin".(Maybe the date was lost in translation)

The Duplex model in the photo would have looked the same, but had coupling rods and cylinders clearly not used on a turbine. I suspect this would have been an earlier design, and that Loewy "recycled" the shell design for the turbine. The turbine artist's impression is a dark colour, but it has the word "Pennsylvania" spread down the side and the tender streamlined to look like part of a single unit, just like the model duplex in the illustration.

M636C

Don't suppose you have a scanner? it would be nice to see a picture more clear than the hunka junk I found.

[carnej1]

Anonymous

I ran across this image while researching Loewy, and have no idea who the customer was for the pictured design. Doubt that it was ever built.

Anyone have any details/info?

Thanks in advance

http://www.art.net/Lile/loewy/images/bureuloc.gif

 
(I really don't think it was the C&O M-1)

[BaltACD]

carnej1

Anonymous

I ran across this image while researching Loewy, and have no idea who the customer was for the pictured design. Doubt that it was ever built.

Anyone have any details/info?

Thanks in advance

http://www.art.net/Lile/loewy/images/bureuloc.gif

 
(I really don't think it was the C&O M-1)

What is pictured has some of the styling cues of Baldwin Baby Face diesels - at least to my eye.

[henry6]

Looks like some of the early EMC diesel designs ala UP and IC that were never built after the shovel nose was designed and implimented...Budd may have had a hand in it, too...

[carnej1]

Here's Lowey's original Patent for the body design:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=815zAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=inassignee:%22The+Pennsylvania+Railroad+Company%22&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=1#v=onepage&q&f=false

 It is clearly the basis for the body styling for the proposed PRR Class V1 9,000HP "Triplex" turbine:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Pt8DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dq=pennsylvania+railroad+triplex&source=bl&ots=bL93U09aPV&sig=mYOhlZPrQ2EpW-Z3hWH4eJRezx4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Q9XAULCaPIys8ASSr4HgAw&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=pennsylvania%20railroad%20triplex&f=false

However, the model in the picture appears to have more conventional running gear, perhaps a "double" articulated duplex drive?

[Overmod]

This is not the V1 design that was greenlighted for construction, which was a freight locomotive with styling cues similar to the DD2.  I have a copy of the (rather large) side and end elevation drawings from the Hagley. 

This design (either in V1 or 'Triplex' flavor) has very little to do with the C&O M1, aside from involving a steam turbine and multiple small-wheeled drive axles.  The M1 was a steam-turbine-electric, developed as a somewhat 'hush-hush' project at Baldwin to come up with something that wouldn't infringe on the Triplex mechanical patents PRR held by that time.  The V1 featured mechanical drive from a single steam turbine on each chassis (2 total) to 48" drivers, and a little-modified version of the Q2's boiler.  The design was later 'updated' to include a self-excited electrical 'clutch' called the Bowes drive (developed for ships) -- there is a very interesting technical description of the system in the Hagley collection, explaining how it worked.

The story takes an as-yet (at least by me) undocumented 'bounce' with the N&W's first turbine design (from 1950) which has running gear that looks very like the V1, but has electrical drive (both to the main and the truck axles!).  This might be the version Stoffells is referencing, although it would be nice to know the details of his 'elektrischer Kraftubertragung' to verify it isn't the Bowes drive.  Exactly when N&W decided on traction motors isn't certain, but there is a relatively detailed report in Railway Age that contains well-reported details on it not later than 1952 (I don't have my notes handy so I can't give you the exact reference).  This was to have a 600psi watertube chain-grate boiler, although I have only circumstantial evidence that this was the same design that went into TE1.

I can't help but note that the locomotive in the original picture has a large 991 on its nose and trim very similar to Santa Fe warbonnet behind its cab.  This does not look like anything 'Pennsy" to me; I wonder if this is associated with the free-piston proposals from about this time.  I would dearly love to see a clearer version of this picture that resolves the running gear.  

RME

[Overmod]

Another view of it here, in the background:

http://www.art.net/Lile/loewy/images/troisdan.gif

Note what appears to be a cut of the PRR 'Triplex' locomotive sketch previously mentioned, in the frame at upper right.  There is considerable documentation at the Hagley regarding discussions between Loewy and people at PRR regarding the original 'Triplex' idea of Loewy's (which was like a 'three-box' design separating the locomotive into three sections, and didn't originally involve turbines at all).  Seemed to me then, and seems to me now, that PRR was ill-advised to be calling their fancy turbine project the 'Triplex' when Loewy had a locomotive design by that name...

Am trying to figure out who presently has this model, and will advise when I do.

RME

[Deggesty]

Modelcar

Loewy was a giant of a talent...! I loved his designs...Almost all of that I'm aware of him doing. Even trash cans in the Late Great Pennsylvania Station in NYC. Don't forget the Carlings Black Label beer bottle label. And speaking of Studebaker....Yes, he had a major effort in helping to save the company....Long before the Avanti. The "way ahead of everyone" 1947 models of Studebakers. One of the first redesigns of American autos after the war....The only other at the time was the brand new Kaisers. All the rest of the "big three" were warmed over models from 1942.
I think Loewy was a genius in his field. I simply loved his designs....they seemed to fit right in with the way I thought stuff should be shaped.
There is a long list of products that he designed their appearance.
His 1947 design of the Studebakers probably added 10 or 15 years to the companys existence. It was the design people commented of not knowing which way the car was going....Large wrap around rear window on some of the coupes. I have a die cast model sitting right besides me here in a collection...the Studebaker Starliner Coupe....still a beautiful design {In my eyes today].

Quentin, do you remember this story from back when the new design of the Studebakers came out? A certain man had a dog which, when he saw a trunk lid raised, would hop into the trunk. The man bought one of the new Studebakers and, after bringing it home, raised the hood--and the dog jumped in.

About thirty years ago, I had the opportunity to drive one when my daughter, who was then not old enough to have a driver's license, bought a 1951 model, and I had to drive it home for her. After she was old enough to drive legally, she drove it from time to time, but she drove a more modern car more often.

[Deggesty]

Modelcar

Reading some more about Loewy I came across the info of his designs for Hallicrafter radio and I believe at least one version of a TV receiver for them. I had forgotten about his association with them. I remember a very early TV {Hallicrafter} model had a 7 inch screen. I might still have either a Radio Shak or Laffette Radio catalog here in my "saved" stuff.....that dates back to that era and having the Hallicrafter products in it....

Quentin, do you know if he designed the Hallicrafters S38 radio? I have one that two of my brothers bought new in 1946 for $38.00. My primary use of it has been to get WWV signals.

[ccltrains]

All the talk about the Loewy designs-cars, beer bottles, steam engines, etc but not one word about what I consider his best railroad design---the GG1.

[carnej1]

Overmod

Another view of it here, in the background:

http://www.art.net/Lile/loewy/images/troisdan.gif

Note what appears to be a cut of the PRR 'Triplex' locomotive sketch previously mentioned, in the frame at upper right.  There is considerable documentation at the Hagley regarding discussions between Loewy and people at PRR regarding the original 'Triplex' idea of Loewy's (which was like a 'three-box' design separating the locomotive into three sections, and didn't originally involve turbines at all).  Seemed to me then, and seems to me now, that PRR was ill-advised to be calling their fancy turbine project the 'Triplex' when Loewy had a locomotive design by that name...

Am trying to figure out who presently has this model, and will advise when I do.

RME

 I strongly suspect that Loewey styling was involved with the later turbine concepts and thus the name stuck...It would appear that there were a succesion of designs for a "Superlocomotive" that started with some type of articulated,duplex drive and evolved through direct drive steam turbines to a turbine electric design...They were all much more complex than the diesel electrics that were on the market at the time and eventually Pennsy decided that the latter was the next step in motive power they were looking for.

[wjstix]

ccltrains

All the talk about the Loewy designs-cars, beer bottles, steam engines, etc but not one word about what I consider his best railroad design---the GG1.

IIRC the GG1 was designed by another man, Loewy was brought in to sort of clean it up. He recommended they build the engine with welded joints instead of rivets (the first prototype GG1 was called "Old Rivets" as I recall) and he designed the striping and lettering on the GG1.

[Modelcar]

Deggesty

Modelcar

Reading some more about Loewy I came across the info of his designs for Hallicrafter radio and I believe at least one version of a TV receiver for them. I had forgotten about his association with them. I

Quentin, do you know if he designed the Hallicrafters S38 radio? I have one that two of my brothers bought new in 1946 for $38.00. My primary use of it has been to get WWV signals.

Deggesty.....I don't have an answer for the S38 radio...I looked at several pic's. of them and to me, it really doesn't seem to have the complete Loewy lines.  Don't forget the Avanti too.....for car guys.  Old Rivets was at the Pennsylvania Rairoad Museum when it first opened....Don't know if it's still located there or not.

 

 

[wanswheel]

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/01/what-makes-things-cool/508772/

[samfp1943]

wanswheel

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/01/what-makes-things-cool/508772/

 

"MAYA: Most Advanced Yet Acceptable"

"... Raymond Loewy’s MAYA principle – Most Advanced Yet Acceptable. According to the Raymond Loewy Estate’s website “he believed that, the adult public’s taste is not necessarily ready to accept the logical solutions to their requirements if the solution implies too vast a departure from what they have been conditioned into accepting as the norm.” I couldn’t have said it any better myself..."

above linked from https://designbyben.wordpress.com/2012/10/15/maya-most-advanced-yet-acceptable/

My intro to Raymond Loewy was during a college class when I was assigned to do a detailed paper on the History of Raymond Loewy, and his influences on dialy lives of modern Americans.  Pretty good for an imigrant former French Artillery Officer..His designes ran a gamut of things from appliances, to the pattern in one of the Formica toping laminates, to coco-cola bottles and the Studebaker autos. My personal favorites were his 'streamlining' jobs for PRR locomotives.

The following clip describes feats preformend by PRR's S-1 "...An article "Riding the Gargantua of the Rails" in the Dec 1941 Popular Mechanics Magazine cites a speed of 133.4 miles per hour (214.7 km/h). There are other stories of the S1 reaching or exceeding 140 miles per hour (230 km/h). In the German trade press and literature from 1945 there was a report of a record run of the S1, citing railroad officials that a speed of 141 mph (227 km/h) had been reached.

Its high speed capability was such that many have claimed that the S1 exceeded on multiple occasions the 126 mph (203 km/h) record steam locomotive speed set in 1938 by the LNER locomotive Mallard. The locomotive was claimed to have exceeded 156 mph (251 km/h) on the Fort Wayne-Chicago run, as it was reported that the PRR received a fine for the feat.

 

According to a time-book belonging to Pennsy engineman Byron Breininger from the Ft. Wayne division records a trip to Chicago on S-1 engine 6100 at 8:59 AM on May 5, 1946, this run was possibly one of its last in service. The engine was scrapped in 1949.^[3][5] The PRR continued developing the T1 class of 4-4-4-4 duplex locomotives but this locomotive model also met with limited success.."

preceeding Linked from http://locomotive.wikia.com/wiki/PRR_S1

[wanswheel]

samfp1943

"Riding the Gargantua of the Rails" in the Dec 1941 Popular Mechanics

https://books.google.com/books?id=9dkDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA8&dq=%22by+roderick+m+grant%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiik-XRyfbQAhVLLSYKHUs0BdA4FBDoAQg6MAg#v=onepage&q=%22by%20roderick%20m%20grant%22&f=true   page 8

https://books.google.com/books?id=9dkDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA197&dq=%22riding+the+gargantua+of+the+rails%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi7u4uTyfbQAhVGziYKHRk1AhoQ6AEIITAB#v=onepage&q=%22riding%20the%20gargantua%20of%20the%20rails%22&f=true   page 197

[wanswheel]

Excerpt from The Atlantic magazine

Several decades before he became the father of industrial design, Raymond Loewy boarded the SS France in 1919 to sail across the Atlantic from his devastated continent to the United States. The influenza pandemic had taken his mother and father, and his service in the French army was over. At the age of 25, Loewy was looking to start fresh in New York, perhaps, he thought, as an electrical engineer. When he reached Manhattan, his older brother Maximilian picked him up in a taxi. They drove straight to 120 Broadway, one of New York City’s largest neoclassical skyscrapers, with two connected towers that ascended from a shared base like a giant tuning fork. Loewy rode the elevator to the observatory platform, 40 stories up, and looked out across the island.

https://books.google.com/books?id=ZFdl0gC5P50C&pg=PA7&dq=%E2%80%9Cmax+and+i+took+a+cab%E2%80%9D&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwib7_rtqPfQAhUBdyYKHRkBAQkQ6AEIKDAC#v=onepage&q=%E2%80%9Cmax%20and%20i%20took%20a%20cab%E2%80%9D&f=true

[Miningman]

Terrific items Wanswheel! Wow never knew those stories behind Raymond Loewy. Made my day...felt I was right there on top of the Equitable Buiding..easy to imagine. Thanks again. 

[54light15]

My personal favourite Loewy design is the 1953 Studebaker. I saw a hardtop version at the Hershey car meet a few years ago. That's still a stylish car. I'd be happy to own one. I believe that he designed aircraft interiors, there's a reference to that in the Howard Hughes film, "The Aviator." 

[samfp1943]

54light15

My personal favourite Loewy design is the 1953 Studebaker. I saw a hardtop version at the Hershey car meet a few years ago. That's still a stylish car. I'd be happy to own one. I believe that he designed aircraft interiors, there's a reference to that in the Howard Hughes film, "The Aviator." 

 

Pretty sure that Raymond Loewy designed the current paint scheme for AF1 at the request of J.F.K.   Not real sure if he had input on the interior design?

See link @ http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/09/upshot/the-man-who-gave-air-force-one-its-aura.html?_r=0

[BaltACD]

I believe Loewy designed Northern Pacific's North Coast Limited color scheme.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

BaltACD - That's what "GN-Rick" said in his post, 3rd one on pg. 1 of this thread.  This Wikipedia article supports that - 6th line under 1950s (1954):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Loewy#Loewy_designs 

Generally a very interesting article - has photos of many of his designs (incl. Studebakers).  At the top right is one of him standing on the pilot of an S1 !

About 3 years ago the O. Winston Link museum in the former N&W station at Roanoke, VA had a display on Loewy's work.  I saw it while passing by, but didn't have time to go in. 

- Paul North.  

[wanswheel]

samfp1943

Pretty sure that Raymond Loewy designed the current paint scheme for AF1 at the request of J.F.K.   Not real sure if he had input on the interior design?

Excerpt from NY Times, July 15, 1986

http://www.nytimes.com/1986/07/15/obituaries/raymond-loewy-streamliner-of-cars-planes-and-pens-dies.html

During Mr. Loewy's last two decades as an active designer, he was often associated with Government projects. This put him on excellent terms with several presidents, notably John F. Kennedy. It was for Mr. Kennedy that he redesigned Air Force One, giving it the appearance of a clean white missile with the legend ''The United States of America'' running its length. Succeeding Presidents have altered the interiors of later models, but the Loewy design has remained on exteriors.

JFK's Air Force 1 before Loewy

https://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset-Viewer/Archives/JFKWHP-KN-C19033.aspx