BNSF trains on acid; thousands stranded

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by locomutt

Seems like another good Headline would read:

RAILROAD COMES CLEAN AS TO WHAT MYSTERIOUS POWDER REALLY WAS

Yes but I doubt that will happen, a friend who was the sceen said it was Soap Acid.

[n012944]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CShaveRR

All right--you take the buses away from the stations, because no passengers will be arriving. They go to Hinsdale or wherever, pick up the stranded passengers, and take them to every station down the road. So now what do you do for the passengers who get off the rubber-tired Dinky and need to catch the bus to their neighborhood stop?

Get the people as close as they can, it is a much shorter walk.

[CShaveRR]

All right--you take the buses away from the stations, because no passengers will be arriving. They go to Hinsdale or wherever, pick up the stranded passengers, and take them to every station down the road. So now what do you do for the passengers who get off the rubber-tired Dinky and need to catch the bus to their neighborhood stop?

The big problem here was the overreaction to what was a harmless spill. Hindsight is wonderful, and the official reaction was followed as it probably should have been. But allowances for common sense no longer seem to be made. If the stuff was in danger of becoming airborne due to fast-moving trains, then slow the trains down--but keep them moving!

As Poppa said, bird poop is probably more dangerous. And stearic acid is less acidic than vinegar.

[n012944]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Poppa_Zit

QUOTE: Originally posted by n012944

QUOTE: Originally posted by Poppa_Zit

QUOTE: Originally posted by AMTK200

I will say Metra did a crappy Job handling everyone they should have provided Alternative Transportation, when I went to Photograph 5(15) At Fairview, people were mad about how Metra ***ed it up. Downers Grove brought there Shuttle Busses over to Fairview and Pace Tried to go pick up people in Hinsdale that would usually get off in Clardian Hills. All in all if we have a disaster e.g. A Nuclar Reactor Blows up etc, we are screwed. My Dad who rode one of the Trains said Metra was Abaslutley No Help. Even the Crew on one of the Amtrak Trains stuck were annoyed with the lack of info.

OK, now that you've registered your complaint, how should in your opinion this have been handled? Keep in mind you don't find enough buses to move 12,000 people with just a few minutes' notice.

Maybe Metra could have 200 buses on standby every day just for such an event -- ask your Dad if he wouldn't mind paying an extra $5 per trip so he won't be inconvenienced if something like this ever happens again.

Metra over its history has been an extremely reliable form of transportation. No one has a right to complain. This was a railroad and EPA issue, not Metra. So let someone else handle the tough stuff, and you keep working on your Spelling, Capitalization and Grammar.

And if a "nuclar reactor" blows up, don't look to Metra for help. You'll be an instant Crispy Critter.

Good response, bite the kids head off. How about this, Metra is part of the RTA, as is PACE. Some of the PACE buses could have been used to help out. And whenever you just left somewhere in the middle of your trip you have the right to complain.

I
"Some of the PACE buses could have been used to help out."

OK, how's this: Let's be realistic and do a hypothetical based on your suggestion and say they [Metra, Pace] did have 100 buses just sitting somewhere, available, gassed up and ready to go -- remember, there were 12,000 stranded passengers, so you'd be cramming 60 in each bus, and each bus would have to make at least two trips. If such a fleet was maintained, taxpayers would then complain having so many extra buses just sitting idle 364 days a year is a monumental waste of tax dollars. I know I would.

How often would they be used? Where exactly would you stage them so they could respond quickly to an incident during the height of rush hour traffic? Northern suburbs? West? South? What if they were staged 50 miles from the area where they were needed? Where would you get 100 drivers on very short notice, all of whom would have to first drive to the bus staging area during the same rush-hour traffic gridlock, then drive to the scene of the emergency?

If not 100 buses on expensive standby, how do you decide which in-service PACE buses to shift over? How do you decide which train passengers get a ride to their destination, and which do not? Do you strand the bus passengers on the original routes after reassigning their buses?

I still say Metra is run very well, and while I agree that passengers have a right to complain, I have yet to hear a viable alternative plan for mitigating what happened last Thursday.

One of the things that Metra and Pace do well is moving people from the train station to there homes. There as always several buses waiting at each train station during rush hour to take passengers to their homes. Once Metra shut down these buses no longer had passengers. They should have been used to move passengers that were abandon at the sububan stations, runing along the line and stopping at the stations all the way to the end. I think the people that were stuck downtown had other options, however those who were on trains that were stopped and left were somewhat screwed. I also think that Metra is a well run company, and for the most part it does a good job with things. I do think that they messed this up, however I am sure that there is a boardroom full of people this week making sure that they do have a plan if something like this were to happen again.

[Poppa_Zit]

QUOTE: Originally posted by n012944

QUOTE: Originally posted by Poppa_Zit

QUOTE: Originally posted by AMTK200

I will say Metra did a crappy Job handling everyone they should have provided Alternative Transportation, when I went to Photograph 5(15) At Fairview, people were mad about how Metra ***ed it up. Downers Grove brought there Shuttle Busses over to Fairview and Pace Tried to go pick up people in Hinsdale that would usually get off in Clardian Hills. All in all if we have a disaster e.g. A Nuclar Reactor Blows up etc, we are screwed. My Dad who rode one of the Trains said Metra was Abaslutley No Help. Even the Crew on one of the Amtrak Trains stuck were annoyed with the lack of info.

OK, now that you've registered your complaint, how should in your opinion this have been handled? Keep in mind you don't find enough buses to move 12,000 people with just a few minutes' notice.

Maybe Metra could have 200 buses on standby every day just for such an event -- ask your Dad if he wouldn't mind paying an extra $5 per trip so he won't be inconvenienced if something like this ever happens again.

Metra over its history has been an extremely reliable form of transportation. No one has a right to complain. This was a railroad and EPA issue, not Metra. So let someone else handle the tough stuff, and you keep working on your Spelling, Capitalization and Grammar.

And if a "nuclar reactor" blows up, don't look to Metra for help. You'll be an instant Crispy Critter. [:D]

Good response, bite the kids head off. How about this, Metra is part of the RTA, as is PACE. Some of the PACE buses could have been used to help out. And whenever you just left somewhere in the middle of your trip you have the right to complain.


Bert

I didn't bite anyone's head off. By posting here, we imply consent to all opposing viewpoints. That's the point of a forum -- an intelligent exchange of ideas. In an effort to provide a degree of fairness and balance, some of us try to respond with common sense to posters making silly, irresponsible statements.

Now to your interesting statement.

"Some of the PACE buses could have been used to help out."

OK, how's this: Let's be realistic and do a hypothetical based on your suggestion and say they [Metra, Pace] did have 100 buses just sitting somewhere, available, gassed up and ready to go -- remember, there were 12,000 stranded passengers, so you'd be cramming 60 in each bus, and each bus would have to make at least two trips. If such a fleet was maintained, taxpayers would then complain having so many extra buses just sitting idle 364 days a year is a monumental waste of tax dollars. I know I would.

How often would they be used? Where exactly would you stage them so they could respond quickly to an incident during the height of rush hour traffic? Northern suburbs? West? South? What if they were staged 50 miles from the area where they were needed? Where would you get 100 drivers on very short notice, all of whom would have to first drive to the bus staging area during the same rush-hour traffic gridlock, then drive to the scene of the emergency?

If not 100 buses on expensive standby, how do you decide which in-service PACE buses to shift over? How do you decide which train passengers get a ride to their destination, and which do not? Do you strand the bus passengers on the original routes after reassigning their buses?

Baseball used to be the National Pastime. Now it seems to be finding an easy target (like government agencies) and blaming it for everything. So Metra passengers had to endure some inconvenience one time in, maybe, five years. They could always opt to drive their own car and sit in that traffic gridlock themselves. Heck, I've been delayed at airports many times for a lot longer than the Metra passengers were stranded.

I still say Metra is run very well, and while I agree that passengers have a right to complain, I have yet to hear a viable alternative plan for mitigating what happened last Thursday.

[n012944]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Poppa_Zit

QUOTE: Originally posted by AMTK200

I will say Metra did a crappy Job handling everyone they should have provided Alternative Transportation, when I went to Photograph 5(15) At Fairview, people were mad about how Metra ***ed it up. Downers Grove brought there Shuttle Busses over to Fairview and Pace Tried to go pick up people in Hinsdale that would usually get off in Clardian Hills. All in all if we have a disaster e.g. A Nuclar Reactor Blows up etc, we are screwed. My Dad who rode one of the Trains said Metra was Abaslutley No Help. Even the Crew on one of the Amtrak Trains stuck were annoyed with the lack of info.

OK, now that you've registered your complaint, how should in your opinion this have been handled? Keep in mind you don't find enough buses to move 12,000 people with just a few minutes' notice.

Maybe Metra could have 200 buses on standby every day just for such an event -- ask your Dad if he wouldn't mind paying an extra $5 per trip so he won't be inconvenienced if something like this ever happens again.

Metra over its history has been an extremely reliable form of transportation. No one has a right to complain. This was a railroad and EPA issue, not Metra. So let someone else handle the tough stuff, and you keep working on your Spelling, Capitalization and Grammar.

And if a "nuclar reactor" blows up, don't look to Metra for help. You'll be an instant Crispy Critter. [:D]

Good response, bite the kids head off. How about this, Metra is part of the RTA, as is PACE. Some of the PACE buses could have been used to help out. And whenever you just left somewhere in the middle of your trip you have the right to complain.


Bert

[railfanespee4449]

BNSF trains of acid.....
I get the image of some dash-9's in a dark corner of the yard saying "DUUUDE! There's no such thing as Heritage II paint. You're like, totally an illusion"
"DUUUDE! Like, would we, like, be wearing warbonnets if we were ten years younger!"
"Duuuuude! Dont, like, dream about the past, man. Live in the future, dude!"
"Oh **** man, here comes that totally unfair SD40-2 He's gonna totally, like, flip out."
"DUUUUDE! Free your mind and your 645 and Hi-traction trucks will follow."

I could go on and on

[locomutt]

Seems like another good Headline would read:

RAILROAD COMES CLEAN AS TO WHAT MYSTERIOUS POWDER REALLY WAS

[jeaton]

I wonder what the Sunday papers would have called the product if Metra had first identified it as "soap powder".

Headlines: It's Really Stearic Acid And We're All Gonna Die"

[Poppa_Zit]

In follow-up stories in Chicago's Sunday papers, the term "acid spill" has been replaced with "soap powder" -- or something to that effect.

Passengers are also quoted chiding Metra on "severely overreacting" to a spill of soap powder and causing to 12,000 people a minor inconvenience.

[Chris30]

Long commute home on Thursday night +Metra Friday morning schedule out of whack+hazmat scare (I'll tell the boss I'm freakin out man!)+sunny 90 degree Chicago Friday=great day to call in sick to work! I wouldn't expect to see a full commuter parking lot anywhere on nice summer Friday.

CC

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30

According to the story in the Chicago Tribune, riders were being advised to return to Chicago and then take the UP West Line. Shuttle buses were transfering passengers between UP West Line stations and BNSF stations. Metra spokesperson Judy Pardonet also said that there wasn't Metra could do given the size of the incident (@26 miles).

CC

Honoring tickets on a parallel line is the way Metra commonly handles problems. I think the problem with this one was the timing right at the start of the Thursday afternoon/evening commute. Busing along the lines is much harder than busing between them as many of the feeder bus routes overlap between towns along the line. The parallel lines aren't really that far apart.

I also think the word Hazmat generates fear and uncertainty, both for riders and for carrier lawsuits. I checked out the Lisle station area(~30 miles out) on Friday morning and the parking lots looked more like a Saturday or Sunday. A lot of people in the area stayed home and I saw a lot of people washing cars. A heavy westbound manifest on the center track came through at restricted speed and the dust it kicked up did smell a little strange, but that could be my imagination working overtime. I moved to a different location upwind, but traffic was lighter than normal. I did see a rail-service contractor inspection truck go by on the center track, but that could be related to some rail grinding they've been doing - maybe the smell as well. I wonder if the rail grinding along with the location of the white stuff near the Peperidge Farm Bakery siding delayed identification?

The racetrack still does have a large number of freights, including coal, doublestacks, Z-trains, autoracks, and manifests. There are also NS, CSX, and UP runthroughs. Most are scheduled to avoid the morning and evening rush hours, but the reverse signaled triple track main with plenty of crossovers allows a great deal of flexibility.

[fuzzybroken]

Oh, you too? Some bright minds here in Cheeseland passed a stupid law like that too. Whatever happened to "over the counter"...???

Back on topic, I first heard about this incident from my friend Jeff, who works in DeKalb. Weird...

[ChuckCobleigh]

I read this today and thought that we would have handled it different here in SoCal. Heck, when the word got out about white powder on the tracks, there would have been a whole bunch of folks out there with straws trying to snort it up. No clean-up needed.

Or maybe I am just a little testy about having to give three forms of ID and a DNA sample to buy a box of Sudafed now.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Poppa_Zit

QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30

120 trains on the Racetrack? That seems a little high. It was my understanding that since the BNSF merger a lot of freight traffic had moved over to the ex-SF Chilli Sub between the Chicago area and Galesburg. Most of the remaining freight on the Racetrack is freight that goes via the C&I to Savannah, Mpls, pacific NW, etc. The Chief was moved from the SF to the BN Racetrack more-or-less making the SF the freight line & the BN Racetrack the passenger line.

CC

Well, depending on where you locate yourself, Metra alone runs about 48 inbounds and 48 outbounds per weekday for 96 trains. There are two Amtraks in each direction daily, which makes 100 passenger trains. So an additional 20 freights would put us at 120, and I'd say there are maybe 40-50 freights on a good day.

There are about 50-55 Freights per day, most Trains expect all Coal, 1-2 Intermodals and a few Manifest Trains did stay after the Merger.

[Chris30]

According to the story in the Chicago Tribune, riders were being advised to return to Chicago and then take the UP West Line. Shuttle buses were transfering passengers between UP West Line stations and BNSF stations. Metra spokesperson Judy Pardonet also said that there wasn't Metra could do given the size of the incident (@26 miles).

CC

[Poppa_Zit]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton

Chicago Tribune coverage quoted somebody (BNSF spokesman?) said it ws out of Tacoma for Cicero- Isn't that all intermodal now?. Bags fell out of a container. Sounds like a possible import move, probably in one of those cheap "Made in China" containers.

I agree that Metra doesn't get a hit for this one. Let see. Lost four hours getting home. OK drive the car and lose 4 hours in traffic delays, but the lost time is spread over 4 days.

Being nosy, I drove past several of the stranded trains. Passengers were everywhere, on platforms, standing on sidewalks, in the street, in front of stores and on lawns. I daresay I've ever seen so many people in one place yakking on cellphones at the same time.

I've never had to use Metra to get to/from work. I have ridden it for fun, as a railfan.

The last time I needed to use public transportation (smelly bus) was when I was in college and couldn't afford a car. But my tax dollars still subsidize these people's relatively cheap rides, so as a "benefactor," let me say: "You were late getting home mebbe once in five years. Big deal. Otherwise, buy a car and drive to work so I will pay less in taxes."

INTERESTING NOTE: The Chicago broadcast media, in a burst of typical hyperbole, was calling it a "dangerous acid spill." Hardly terminology I would choose, since I saw nosy members of the public being allowed to mill about -- less than 15 feet from the spill -- by police "guarding" the scene. But I guess teasing listeners/viewers is all part of the ratings game. "Dangerous acid spill" connotes sizzling, melting tracks and ties. To the contrary, stearic acid is quite inert. Bird poop will do more damage.

[jeaton]

Chicago Tribune coverage quoted somebody (BNSF spokesman?) said it ws out of Tacoma for Cicero- Isn't that all intermodal now?. Bags fell out of a container. Sounds like a possible import move, probably in one of those cheap "Made in China" containers.

I agree that Metra doesn't get a hit for this one. Let see. Lost four hours getting home. OK drive the car and lose 4 hours in traffic delays, but the lost time is spread over 4 days.

[Poppa_Zit]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AMTK200

I will say Metra did a crappy Job handling everyone they should have provided Alternative Transportation, when I went to Photograph 5(15) At Fairview, people were mad about how Metra ***ed it up. Downers Grove brought there Shuttle Busses over to Fairview and Pace Tried to go pick up people in Hinsdale that would usually get off in Clardian Hills. All in all if we have a disaster e.g. A Nuclar Reactor Blows up etc, we are screwed. My Dad who rode one of the Trains said Metra was Abaslutley No Help. Even the Crew on one of the Amtrak Trains stuck were annoyed with the lack of info.

OK, now that you've registered your complaint, how should in your opinion this have been handled? Keep in mind you don't find enough buses to move 12,000 people with just a few minutes' notice.

Maybe Metra could have 200 buses on standby every day just for such an event -- ask your Dad if he wouldn't mind paying an extra $5 per trip so he won't be inconvenienced if something like this ever happens again.

Metra over its history has been an extremely reliable form of transportation. No one has a right to complain. This was a railroad and EPA issue, not Metra. So let someone else handle the tough stuff, and you keep working on your Spelling, Capitalization and Grammar.

And if a "nuclar reactor" blows up, don't look to Metra for help. You'll be an instant Crispy Critter. [:D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AMTK200

I will say Metra did a crappy Job handling everyone they should have provided Alternative Transportation, when I went to Photograph 5(15) At Fairview, people were mad about how Metra ***ed it up. Downers Grove brought there Shuttle Busses over to Fairview and Pace Tried to go pick up people in Hinsdale that would usually get off in Clardian Hills. All in all if we have a disaster e.g. A Nuclar Reactor Blows up etc, we are screwed. My Dad who rode one of the Trains said Metra was Abaslutley No Help. Even the Crew on one of the Amtrak Trains stuck were annoyed with the lack of info.

Looks like Metra did as well as your spell checker![:D]

[vsmith]

D'OH!!!!!

[jeaton]

Interesting stuff. You can find stearic acid in bath soaps, but you don't want to snort it. Do advertising models shown breathing in the fragrance of soap know the danger?[;)][;)]

The powder does not disolve in water and I saw a material safety sheet that says that cleanup personnel should use respirators and a something like a light haz mat suit. Looks like complete clean up would require a BIG vacumn cleaner or a lot of alien appearing dudes with hand held cordless vacumns and brushes to sweep the dust off the ballast.

Poppa- Any information on the freight vehicle-hopper, box car, trailer or container? Ownership? did a door break open? How did the stuff get out? (My theory, it was one of those "Made in China" boxes just fell apart.)
Jay

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Poppa_Zit

BULLETIN from the Poppa_Zit newsdesk......


Exacerbating the problem was that it happened at the beginning of rush hour, and an estimated 15,000 Metra commuters were stranded. Eastbound trains were halted at the Belmont station and westbounds were held at Westmont. A westbound Amtrak train believed to be the Southwest Chief was stopped at Metra's Fairview Avenue station. Numerous freights were also stacked up in both directions.

That was the California Zepyhr Stopped, it left CUS 2 Hours late and the Chief was the last train thru before the line was closed.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb

Why not hyway water truckes and a 5 mph slow order? If the only hazard was dust there are solutions. I mean how acidic is the stuff?

The Police were prorably trying to make there OT.

[rrandb]

Why not hyway water truckes and a 5 mph slow order? If the only hazard was dust there are solutions. I mean how acidic is the stuff?

[Chris30]

Ok, I guess 120 a day (Mon-Fri) on the Racetrack does make sense.

Thanks,
CC

[Anonymous]

I will say Metra did a crappy Job handling everyone they should have provided Alternative Transportation, when I went to Photograph 5(15) At Fairview, people were mad about how Metra ***ed it up. Downers Grove brought there Shuttle Busses over to Fairview and Pace Tried to go pick up people in Hinsdale that would usually get off in Clardian Hills. All in all if we have a disaster e.g. A Nuclar Reactor Blows up etc, we are screwed. My Dad who rode one of the Trains said Metra was Abaslutley No Help. Even the Crew on one of the Amtrak Trains stuck were annoyed with the lack of info.

[Murphy Siding]

Well.....they could use a vacuum cleaner to pick up the dust.......But that kind of work usually sucks.[:P]

[Poppa_Zit]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30

120 trains on the Racetrack? That seems a little high. It was my understanding that since the BNSF merger a lot of freight traffic had moved over to the ex-SF Chilli Sub between the Chicago area and Galesburg. Most of the remaining freight on the Racetrack is freight that goes via the C&I to Savannah, Mpls, pacific NW, etc. The Chief was moved from the SF to the BN Racetrack more-or-less making the SF the freight line & the BN Racetrack the passenger line.

CC

Well, depending on where you locate yourself, Metra alone runs about 48 inbounds and 48 outbounds per weekday for 96 trains. There are two Amtraks in each direction daily, which makes 100 passenger trains. So an additional 20 freights would put us at 120, and I'd say there are maybe 40-50 freights on a good day.