Covington KY's Only Worries (Must be Nice)

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by solzrules

I am just trying to point out that there are big differences between a parking garage and a railroad bridge.

Perhaps the biggest difference being (other than the possibility of corrosive agents such as salt) is the large horizontal surfaces on a parking garage, where if there is not adequate drainage, the water just sits until it either evaporates or finds a gravity assisted exit

If that exit crosses paths with rebar in the slab, I can't think of any set of circumstances where that is desirable.

As an aside, I've seen some vertical cement surfaces lately on the underside of 60-80 year old railroad bridges, where the concrete is spalled completely off of the first row of re bar..

No doubt caused by the road salt spread over the roadway below by the state DOT crews, being splashed up as cars drive by No wonder the railroads expect the taxpayers to fix their bridges [oX)]

They should sue the city for the cost of repairs necessitated by the salt crews negligence, and then take the judgement money won and distribute it to the stockholders as a bonus dividend... less the $5,000 needed to pay next years fine, of course. [:D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by solzrules

I highly doubt there is any danger of a massive chemical spill because the bridge is rusty.

I suspect you are right. "safety" is always an easy twist in making a specious argument.

[rrandb]

There's a world of difference between "We think your bridge would look better if you painted it" and "we fear for lives because the bridge may fall down if you do not paint it". If the appearance is the issue and the town is that worried they could offer to pay to have it painted. The structuall engineers are the only ones to address the later. It's a whole nother issue when a local government wants asthetic jurisdiction over a federalaly regulated carrier. This could set up a nightmare pressident.

[solzrules]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

QUOTE: Originally posted by solzrules


Only a city enamored in the bliss of utpoia could possibly worry about this. Flaking paint is going to cause a chemical dump? How is that not using scare tactics? I wonder what study he is quoting from, or what qualified city inspector decided that was the scenario to be afraid of. The Parks Department?

revisiting that last part for a moment, I suspect it is a matter of degree. Wouldn't you?

If the problem was just a few patches of rust and some faded paint, or surface cracking in the cement I doubt that the critics would be so persistent.


If the offending eyesore was of a size that CSX could "sit a plant in front of it", they could probably get away with that. Unfortunately when you get to this scale It would takes a rainforest to screen the uglies.

I think the mayor is trying to improve the asthetics of his town. I highly doubt there is any danger of a massive chemical spill because the bridge is rusty. I ask again - has the mayor consulted with someone to determine the safety of the bridge? Or his he trying to use scare tactics to accomplish something? Which tactic would a politician use?

There are bridges in Milwaukee from the Milwaukee Road that are literally over a hundred years old. They didn't have I-beams back then, they made them by riveting strips of steel together. These bridges are asthetically in horrible condition, but they hold a train like they were built yesterday.

[solzrules]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

QUOTE: Originally posted by solzrules


AntiGates -
There is a big difference between a parking garage and a RR bridge. One is subjected to massive puddles of water laden with road salt and the other isn't. It isn't rust that causes the concrete to de-laminate, it is the salt. Salt weakens concrete over time, to say nothing about what it does to metal rebar. Modern parking garages, and in fact all road bridges, are constructed using PVC coated rebar (usually they are green in color). Even the tie wire used to tie up the rebars is PVC coated. This minimizes the affect of salt on the metal so the concrete will retain its strength longer, but over time a continual saturation with road salt will still cause the concrete to de-laminate. That is also why roads and parking structures last longer in the south then they do in the north - no harsh winters (and road salt) in Florida.

As for the mayor -

Only a city enamored in the bliss of utpoia could possibly worry about this. Flaking paint is going to cause a chemical dump? How is that not using scare tactics? I wonder what study he is quoting from, or what qualified city inspector decided that was the scenario to be afraid of. The Parks Department?

Yes, salt certainly will compound the problem. no question about that. However, an absence of salt does not eliminate the problem entirely either. And yes, the MUCH MILDER WINTERS IN THE SOUTH bring far fewer freeze thaw cycles per winter than in the great white north. Prolly why they don''t have to use road salt down in dixie? (bet there is a connection in there smewheres)

Thanks for treating me like a complete moron talking out my hat, (again) i love it when folks try to imply that. And you know what? Were it not for the fact that professional engineers whose knowledge I had a great deal of respect for had not already "brainwashed" me to the contrary, I might capitulate. Sorry though, maybe another day.

Which one of CSX's hundred year old bridges are you claiming was built with PVC coated rebar in the foundation?

There is really no need to be pissy. I wasn't my intent to implore that you were a moron. Sorry bout that, but that doesn't mean I can't at least try to speak to the topic. Nor did I state that one of CSX's hundred year old bridges are built with PVC coated steel. This is a modern practice not a hundred year old one. I am just trying to point out that there are big differences between a parking garage and a railroad bridge. Also, a professional engineer that specializes in road use bridges and and structures like parking garages typically will not be able to apply the same design specs to a railroad bridge. There are differences in use. That was all I was trying to say. Don't take it personally. I sure don't.

[rrandb]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

QUOTE: Originally posted by solzrules


AntiGates -
There is a big difference between a parking garage and a RR bridge. One is subjected to massive puddles of water laden with road salt and the other isn't. It isn't rust that causes the concrete to de-laminate, it is the salt. Salt weakens concrete over time, to say nothing about what it does to metal rebar. Modern parking garages, and in fact all road bridges, are constructed using PVC coated rebar (usually they are green in color). Even the tie wire used to tie up the rebars is PVC coated. This minimizes the affect of salt on the metal so the concrete will retain its strength longer, but over time a continual saturation with road salt will still cause the concrete to de-laminate. That is also why roads and parking structures last longer in the south then they do in the north - no harsh winters (and road salt) in Florida.

As for the mayor -

Only a city enamored in the bliss of utpoia could possibly worry about this. Flaking paint is going to cause a chemical dump? How is that not using scare tactics? I wonder what study he is quoting from, or what qualified city inspector decided that was the scenario to be afraid of. The Parks Department?

Yes, salt certainly will compound the problem. no question about that. However, an absence of salt does not eliminate the problem entirely either. And yes, the MUCH MILDER WINTERS IN THE SOUTH bring far fewer freeze thaw cycles per winter than in the great white north. Prolly why they don''t have to use road salt down in dixie? (bet there is a connection in there smewheres)

Thanks for treating me like a complete moron talking out my hat, (again) i love it when folks try to imply that. And you know what? Were it not for the fact that professional engineers whose knowledge I had a great deal of respect for had not already "brainwashed" me to the contrary, I might capitulate. Sorry though, maybe another day.

The bridges I am speaking of are sitting on concrete pillings in the middle of the ocean. To say salt is not an issue is ludicris. They have always been in a salt rich enviroment. m The rail used for guard rails have rusted to the point of failure. The sructural steel is made more like cast iron than mild steel. The steel was rolled 100 years ago well before Cor Ten. Last time I checked the freeze thaw effect was limited to expansion and contraction. Not structural integrity. The point is they do not have to be painted for reasons of structual integrity. Do not confuse hyway with railroad bridges. The only reason FLDOT has knowledge of railroad bridges is they built US 1 on top of FEC's Key West extension after the 1935 hurricane embargoded the line. They have moved the hyway but to this day say there is no danger of the bridges collapsing.

[StillGrande]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Poppa_Zit

This scam by Covington's mayor, if adopted by Chicago's City Council and applied to the hundreds of similar-looking bridges in the Windy City, could fill city coffers enough to where every alderman's children, nieces and nephews could get hired for no-show jobs. [:D]

The Chicago City Council has, in its infinite wisdom, already boldly enacted bans on foie gras, cell phone use by taxi drivers, street musicians and is now wording legislation to regulate the oil used to make french fries!

Of course, Chicago did once send out thousands of delinquent parking ticket notices to people requesting they pay by mail or face prosecution. Thing was, some of the people had never even been to Chicago, or anywhere near it. They still managed to take in a hefty sum from people who just paid rather than fight it.

Think how much money towns could raise if they just figured out how much it would cost someone to fix something, and then set the fine at 25% of the cost. Keep the file and level the same charge every couple of years. Pure brilliance. My had is off to the mayor.

[Murphy Siding]

The issue here, is whether CSX *has to * make the bridge look , for lack of a better word, *prettier*. This, verses whether CSX *wants to * make it look prettier, in order to be a *good corporate neighbor*. It may be the right thing to do in the eyes of the city involved. That doesn't mean the bean-counters at CSX think it is. In our city, we have a big, ugly, smelly, packing plant that is owned by a financially strong conglomerate. They're not going to pretty up their physical plant, either.[sigh]
The analogy that comes to mind, is that of a racecar driver/owner who was asked to paint his car. The racetrack owner thought it detracted from the enjoyment of the fans. The driver replied that "paint won't make the racecar any faster".

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by solzrules


Only a city enamored in the bliss of utpoia could possibly worry about this. Flaking paint is going to cause a chemical dump? How is that not using scare tactics? I wonder what study he is quoting from, or what qualified city inspector decided that was the scenario to be afraid of. The Parks Department?

revisiting that last part for a moment, I suspect it is a matter of degree. Wouldn't you?

If the problem was just a few patches of rust and some faded paint, or surface cracking in the cement I doubt that the critics would be so persistent.


If the offending eyesore was of a size that CSX could "sit a plant in front of it", they could probably get away with that. Unfortunately when you get to this scale It would takes a rainforest to screen the uglies.

[mudchicken]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SSW9389

I always thought that the federal government regulated railroads. How can local building code enforcement apply to something like a railroad if it is federally regulated?

It doesn't...Covington KY is on an ego trip. (Somebody ought to fine the good mayor Callery because he's ugly and wears the wrong shoes [he might slip and fall, safety hazzard]....$5000.00 please][swg][swg][swg])

[SSW9389]

I always thought that the federal government regulated railroads. How can local building code enforcement apply to something like a railroad if it is federally regulated?

[Anonymous]

Maybe if they just put louder horns on the diesels, the mayor won't care so much about the rust? ..[}:)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by solzrules


AntiGates -
There is a big difference between a parking garage and a RR bridge. One is subjected to massive puddles of water laden with road salt and the other isn't. It isn't rust that causes the concrete to de-laminate, it is the salt. Salt weakens concrete over time, to say nothing about what it does to metal rebar. Modern parking garages, and in fact all road bridges, are constructed using PVC coated rebar (usually they are green in color). Even the tie wire used to tie up the rebars is PVC coated. This minimizes the affect of salt on the metal so the concrete will retain its strength longer, but over time a continual saturation with road salt will still cause the concrete to de-laminate. That is also why roads and parking structures last longer in the south then they do in the north - no harsh winters (and road salt) in Florida.

As for the mayor -

Only a city enamored in the bliss of utpoia could possibly worry about this. Flaking paint is going to cause a chemical dump? How is that not using scare tactics? I wonder what study he is quoting from, or what qualified city inspector decided that was the scenario to be afraid of. The Parks Department?

Yes, salt certainly will compound the problem. no question about that. However, an absence of salt does not eliminate the problem entirely either. And yes, the MUCH MILDER WINTERS IN THE SOUTH bring far fewer freeze thaw cycles per winter than in the great white north. Prolly why they don''t have to use road salt down in dixie? (bet there is a connection in there smewheres)

Thanks for treating me like a complete moron talking out my hat, (again) i love it when folks try to imply that. And you know what? Were it not for the fact that professional engineers whose knowledge I had a great deal of respect for had not already "brainwashed" me to the contrary, I might capitulate. Sorry though, maybe another day.

Which one of CSX's hundred year old bridges are you claiming was built with PVC coated rebar in the foundation?

[solzrules]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb

The facts are from the FL DOT. Where are yours from. [?]

As far as the cement/exposed rebar, direct hands on experience with multiple steel reinforced concrete parking structures that had been "cancered out" through years of neglect

Once the rebar is exposed, the water wicks down between the bar and the concrete around it, the invasiveness is self sustaining and accellerates expotentially.

Really fun when you walk around a 8 story garage knocking the deck and getting hollow sounds because of the delamination of the cement at the first layer of bar., and it only gets worse, the deeper the water works it's way into it.

Re bar actually "expands" as it corrodes, adding a pushing effect seperating the cement from it

And for the steel, not all steel is meant to be corroded, and much of what was designed tro be that way didn't workout as hoped for (Cor-ten I think was one, that will 'rot' out anyway if kept continuously wet)


A good site for corrosion basics is http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/InternetResources/NPL.htm#Stress

AntiGates -
There is a big difference between a parking garage and a RR bridge. One is subjected to massive puddles of water laden with road salt and the other isn't. It isn't rust that causes the concrete to de-laminate, it is the salt. Salt weakens concrete over time, to say nothing about what it does to metal rebar. Modern parking garages, and in fact all road bridges, are constructed using PVC coated rebar (usually they are green in color). Even the tie wire used to tie up the rebars is PVC coated. This minimizes the affect of salt on the metal so the concrete will retain its strength longer, but over time a continual saturation with road salt will still cause the concrete to de-laminate. That is also why roads and parking structures last longer in the south then they do in the north - no harsh winters (and road salt) in Florida.

As for the mayor -

Only a city enamored in the bliss of utpoia could possibly worry about this. Flaking paint is going to cause a chemical dump? How is that not using scare tactics? I wonder what study he is quoting from, or what qualified city inspector decided that was the scenario to be afraid of. The Parks Department?

[Murphy Siding]

I was born in Alaska, and lived there until I was 11. I remember that back then, early 70's, the highway crews would paint all the steel girder bridges each summer with *red-lead* paint. I bet no one does that anymore!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb

The facts are from the FL DOT. Where are yours from. [?]

As far as the cement/exposed rebar, direct hands on experience with multiple steel reinforced concrete parking structures that had been "cancered out" through years of neglect

Once the rebar is exposed, the water wicks down between the bar and the concrete around it, the invasiveness is self sustaining and accellerates expotentially.

Really fun when you walk around a 8 story garage knocking the deck and getting hollow sounds because of the delamination of the cement at the first layer of bar., and it only gets worse, the deeper the water works it's way into it.

Re bar actually "expands" as it corrodes, adding a pushing effect seperating the cement from it

And for the steel, not all steel is meant to be corroded, and much of what was designed tro be that way didn't workout as hoped for (Cor-ten I think was one, that will 'rot' out anyway if kept continuously wet)


A good site for corrosion basics is http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/InternetResources/NPL.htm#Stress

[rrandb]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

Allowing the steel reinforcement in concrete superstructures to remain exposed to the elements is a recipe for eventual failure.

Rain follows the re-bar into the heart of the cement, freezes and cracks the cement, cracks get bigger, allow more water in, repeat the process for a couple decades, and eventually you have serious problems.

Of course, the railroad can always make an appeal that the tax payers should eventually pay to replace the bridges that rusted away, afterall, how can a poor little old railroad be expected to afford a bridge, they just run trains and inspect for operational safety.

There are types of steel that are designed never to be painted. They are supposed to rust. The Girder bridges on the FEC have had nothing done since the trains stopped in 1935 and they have never been painted. The state tried to remove the piers(concrete) but after one the contractor quit because it took them 3 months instead of one week like they said it would. Concrete gets harder as it get older. Paint can seel small cracks and prevent them from being found. Rust flakes off and it is readily apparent. The facts are from the FL DOT. Where are yours from. [?]

[Clutch Cargo]

I was busted in Covington KY. in 1964. (gambling)
Those politicos are absolute pigs down there.

The garden variety Chicago Ward Healer is content to just wet his beak.
Not so in Covington....they are like pigs at the trough.
Gaaaah.
Now i`m cranky.

Kurt

[Poppa_Zit]

This scam by Covington's mayor, if adopted by Chicago's City Council and applied to the hundreds of similar-looking bridges in the Windy City, could fill city coffers enough to where every alderman's children, nieces and nephews could get hired for no-show jobs. [:D]

The Chicago City Council has, in its infinite wisdom, already boldly enacted bans on foie gras, cell phone use by taxi drivers, street musicians and is now wording legislation to regulate the oil used to make french fries!

Of course, all crimes have been solved and neighborhoods are safe. Sounds to me like the Covington Mayor is making a grandstand play for the PR value, if the not the revenue stream. Wonder if the rest of his city is as *** 'n span as he'd like the CSX bridge.

[Anonymous]

Allowing the steel reinforcement in concrete superstructures to remain exposed to the elements is a recipe for eventual failure.

Rain follows the re-bar into the heart of the cement, freezes and cracks the cement, cracks get bigger, allow more water in, repeat the process for a couple decades, and eventually you have serious problems.

Of course, the railroad can always make an appeal that the tax payers should eventually pay to replace the bridges that rusted away, afterall, how can a poor little old railroad be expected to afford a bridge, they just run trains and inspect for operational safety.

[Clutch Cargo]

All they have to do is put the cops on it.
Every little punk with a spray can is told to stay away from the CSX bridges.
I call it the Tom Sawyer solution.

Kurt

[StillGrande]

It does sound like a good way to raise a little money for the town. Think of all the speeding tickets they would have to write to equal that amount.

The downspouts were probably stolen and sold for scrap. Want to start a pool about how long the new ones will be there before they disappear?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

[
Good point. After reading the article, would you think the mayor would be squawking as loud, if the railroad in question had a balance sheet like latter day Rock Island, Milwaukee Road, or Penn Central?

The (seemingly) noteworthy factor is look at who ISN'T getting a rash from the local towns people. Norfolk Southern

I'm sure there are exceptions Murph, but for the majority of bridges around thses parts Norfolk Southern seems to have some semblance of a bridge repainting strategy, while the CSX bridges seem to be icons of neglect.


Look at the bridges NS uses to cross the ohio, compared to CSX's... Coincidently (I'm sure) the smaller bridges around here, for each railroad, are astonishingly similar.

Perhaps, CSX is getting picked on because they are the worst offender? They say themselves that they have no cosmetic painting program, maybe that's why their bossom is constantly in the wringer? [:D]

QUOTE: I wonder if there is a federal precidence concerning states and localities regulating appearance of railroad properties? Csx says they safety check the bridges. For the most part, it appears this is a appearance issue.

Aren't we talking about "sun kink" CSX? [}:)] how comprehensive of an inspection do you think they perform? my bet is they inspect the bearings, foundation(s), and readily apparent problems, mostly. Of course, that's just uninformed speculation. But if I had to guess, that would be mine.


There is another school of thought that says a well painted, well maintained, bridge is easier to inspect, because, small cracks, advanced deterioration , and and the sort SHOW THROUGH in the form of rust.

When the entire bridge is a wall of rust, how good is visual inspection alone? Something tells me that CSX is not bothering to magnaflux the entire bridge, looking for hairlines.

[Anonymous]

I think the mayor just wants to make his town look better to attract visitors etc. I don't think he cares about anyone's saftey (but his own). If I am wrong, forgive me, but that is what I sense.

[Anonymous]

I think that will be a Bridge to cross one day for everyone involved.

I like how CSX pays the fine that is least amount of expense. Now that is frugal.

If the City does elevate the amount of fining against CSX that money should go directly towards the problem bridge NOTHING ELSE. If the Mayor wants it fixed in a middle of a overgrown area; let him do it.

[tree68]

I'm sure that if they wanted to, CSX could find a way to abandon the bridge and let it go for taxes. Then the mayor could do anything he wanted with it...

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

If I play my stereo too loud all night, does that mean you should pay for soundproofing to my house? just for your comfort? Or should the owner of the offending property take responsibility for being a good neighbor?

Good point. After reading the article, would you think the mayor would be squawking as loud, if the railroad in question had a balance sheet like latter day Rock Island, Milwaukee Road, or Penn Central?
I wonder if there is a federal precidence concerning states and localities regulating appearance of railroad properties? Csx says they safety check the bridges. For the most part, it appears this is a appearance issue. Can they also pass an ordinance against dirty locomotives, or graffitied rails cars?

[locomutt]

Kind of sounds like the Mayor is hoping for a take from the
"concession stand".........think the "gloves" are already on..[B)][swg]

[Mookie]

Well, the mayor should take a chill pill and look at it from another point of view.

Look how much $ he can collect from CSX if he just imposes the fines and holds out his hand. They don't fix it, maybe eventually he won't have to collect from the taxpayers.

Sounds like easy $ to me.....?

[Anonymous]

If I play my stereo too loud all night, does that mean you should pay for soundproofing to my house? just for your comfort? Or should the owner of the offending property take responsibility for being a good neighbor?