Covington KY's Only Worries (Must be Nice)

[solzrules]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

QUOTE: Originally posted by solzrules


Only a city enamored in the bliss of utpoia could possibly worry about this. Flaking paint is going to cause a chemical dump? How is that not using scare tactics? I wonder what study he is quoting from, or what qualified city inspector decided that was the scenario to be afraid of. The Parks Department?

revisiting that last part for a moment, I suspect it is a matter of degree. Wouldn't you?

If the problem was just a few patches of rust and some faded paint, or surface cracking in the cement I doubt that the critics would be so persistent.


If the offending eyesore was of a size that CSX could "sit a plant in front of it", they could probably get away with that. Unfortunately when you get to this scale It would takes a rainforest to screen the uglies.

I think the mayor is trying to improve the asthetics of his town. I highly doubt there is any danger of a massive chemical spill because the bridge is rusty. I ask again - has the mayor consulted with someone to determine the safety of the bridge? Or his he trying to use scare tactics to accomplish something? Which tactic would a politician use?

There are bridges in Milwaukee from the Milwaukee Road that are literally over a hundred years old. They didn't have I-beams back then, they made them by riveting strips of steel together. These bridges are asthetically in horrible condition, but they hold a train like they were built yesterday.

[rrandb]

There's a world of difference between "We think your bridge would look better if you painted it" and "we fear for lives because the bridge may fall down if you do not paint it". If the appearance is the issue and the town is that worried they could offer to pay to have it painted. The structuall engineers are the only ones to address the later. It's a whole nother issue when a local government wants asthetic jurisdiction over a federalaly regulated carrier. This could set up a nightmare pressident.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by solzrules

I highly doubt there is any danger of a massive chemical spill because the bridge is rusty.

I suspect you are right. "safety" is always an easy twist in making a specious argument.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by solzrules

I am just trying to point out that there are big differences between a parking garage and a railroad bridge.

Perhaps the biggest difference being (other than the possibility of corrosive agents such as salt) is the large horizontal surfaces on a parking garage, where if there is not adequate drainage, the water just sits until it either evaporates or finds a gravity assisted exit

If that exit crosses paths with rebar in the slab, I can't think of any set of circumstances where that is desirable.

As an aside, I've seen some vertical cement surfaces lately on the underside of 60-80 year old railroad bridges, where the concrete is spalled completely off of the first row of re bar..

No doubt caused by the road salt spread over the roadway below by the state DOT crews, being splashed up as cars drive by No wonder the railroads expect the taxpayers to fix their bridges [oX)]

They should sue the city for the cost of repairs necessitated by the salt crews negligence, and then take the judgement money won and distribute it to the stockholders as a bonus dividend... less the $5,000 needed to pay next years fine, of course. [:D]

[solzrules]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

QUOTE: Originally posted by solzrules

I am just trying to point out that there are big differences between a parking garage and a railroad bridge.

Perhaps the biggest difference being (other than the possibility of corrosive agents such as salt) is the large horizontal surfaces on a parking garage, where if there is not adequate drainage, the water just sits until it either evaporates or finds a gravity assisted exit

If that exit crosses paths with rebar in the slab, I can't think of any set of circumstances where that is desirable.

As an aside, I've seen some vertical cement surfaces lately on the underside of 60-80 year old railroad bridges, where the concrete is spalled completely off of the first row of re bar..

No doubt caused by the road salt spread over the roadway below by the state DOT crews, being splashed up as cars drive by No wonder the railroads expect the taxpayers to fix their bridges [oX)]

They should sue the city for the cost of repairs necessitated by the salt crews negligence, and then take the judgement money won and distribute it to the stockholders as a bonus dividend... less the $5,000 needed to pay next years fine, of course. [:D]

[(-D][(-D]

Now your thinking!

I am sure that the mayor wouldn't go for it but man wouldn't that be a sense of irony???

[rrandb]

Evidently this mayor will go for just about anything. Never underestimate a politician just because most of us wouldn't go for it.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding


The analogy that comes to mind, is that of a racecar driver/owner who was asked to paint his car. The racetrack owner thought it detracted from the enjoyment of the fans. The driver replied that "paint won't make the racecar any faster".

Then he got a sponsor named Andy Granitelli, who told him to paint the car red., and they lived happily ever after...right

I think there may be more to the "city vs railroad" carborundrum (we miss you Yogi Berra)

Look at the city of Rochester/DME debacle.

With Railroad's new "long haul only" business plan, hostile attitude towards low volume or infrequent shippers, and the evolution of interstate highways and trucking, freight railroads offer less and are far less important to the economic growth of a lineside town, so cities don't have to be so tolerant to railroad's "kiss me where it stinks or else" attitude.

In the 1890's, the prospect of a railroad not coming through your town was far more disasterous than the negatives of sight, sound, and culture pollution.


Since railroads offer less of importance to the cities along it's path, they don't have to be as accomodating, so they aren't. No mystery there.

Your meat packing plant at least offers jobs to the local community I'm sure that Rochester is about as thrilled with the jobs DME is promissing South Dakotans, as the people of Covington are happy about all the buckeyes working up in CSX's northern yards.


I see a strong parallel to the old southern speed traps you used to have laying in wait for the spring driveathon to Florida vacations. Where the locals figured "if all they are gonna do is barrel through on their way to elsewhere, and be rude about doing it, why not make them pay?"

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb

There's a world of difference between "We think your bridge would look better if you painted it" and "we fear for lives because the bridge may fall down if you do not paint it".

But, making the assumption that the bridge won't fail (due to advanced rust conditions) as a ruse in service to the primary desire to not incur the cost of painting, isn't a wise strategy either.

Love to know how thorough these safety inspections CSX claims they are making are

My bet is that they are not doing a 100% inspection each time through

it's funny because the local NS bridge over a nearby river recently "sprouted" fluorescent marker paint circling and pointing out various flaws in the bridge's plating.

Looks like they are gonns be doing some extensive repairs to welds, rusted plates, and some foundation repairs


Bet they paint the bridge when they are done...

I wonder how many actual repairs CSX has done to the Covington bridge, resulting from findings during their claimed "inspections"? that would be VERY interesting to know.


Bet that info is something CSX does not allow itself to make public.

[zardoz]

How much can it cost to paint a bridge? Has CSX no community responsibility? Does CSX not care about the image they present?

[solzrules]

Look at it this way. Let's assume that the bridge is physically sound. The mayor wants the rr to repaint the bridge so it looks nice, right? If the railroad gives in and pays for something that -let's face it it isn't critical - what happens when a thousand other towns demand the same thing? That could be really expensive. And it would be an expense that isn't justified to operate the railroad. Nor would it really be a hazardous enviromental condition.

I think the railroad is being a good citizen by ensuring the bridges are safe. I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary - speculation about the quality of the inspections is really just that - speculation.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by solzrules

Look at it this way. Let's assume that the bridge is physically sound. The mayor wants the rr to repaint the bridge so it looks nice, right? If the railroad gives in and pays for something that -let's face it it isn't critical - what happens when a thousand other towns demand the same thing? That could be really expensive. And it would be an expense that isn't justified to operate the railroad. Nor would it really be a hazardous enviromental condition.

I think the railroad is being a good citizen by ensuring the bridges are safe. I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary - speculation about the quality of the inspections is really just that - speculation.

But is not your assumption as posed above a "speculation" as well?

I don't see where my "speculation" is any less valid than yours. Am I missing something?

Allowing these bridges to rust away in accomodation to stockholder greed is irresponsible at best, and, depending on what eventual outcome results, could border on criminally negligent at worst....

So the blanket expectation of "hands off" seems the less wise path to pursue.

Better to fight them now while they need the bridge, than wait until it develops serious flaws that prompt CSX to abandon and bail. Leaving the city with a king sized monument to the stupidity of undeserved tolerance .


[;)]

CSX needs to take responsibility for the consequences of its actions,

[rrandb]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb

There's a world of difference between "We think your bridge would look better if you painted it" and "we fear for lives because the bridge may fall down if you do not paint it".

it's funny because the local NS bridge over a nearby river recently "sprouted" fluorescent marker paint circling and pointing out various flaws in the bridge's plating.
Looks like they are gonns be doing some extensive repairs to welds, rusted plates, and some foundation repairs
Bet they paint the bridge when they are done...

Bet you a dime to a dollar they will not paint it if it is not currently painted. If it is currently painted they will only paint the parts damaged by repairs. You pick how much you can afford to lose. The bridge in question in KY is not currently painted. [:-,]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb

Bet you a dime to a dollar they will not paint it if it is not currently painted. If it is currently painted they will only paint the parts damaged by repairs. You pick how much you can afford to lose. The bridge in question in KY is not currently painted. [:-,]

your dime to my dollar? well those odds kinda SUCK!

The bridge in question has been repainted before, so I think it would be unwise to wager it won't be painted again.


After they get around to doing whatever work they have planned, I take a photo and post a link

[rrandb]

If you win the bet you get the dollar. If I win your out a dime. Still SUCK? [?] Probably a dime won't break you. [swg] The bridge in Covington has not be been painted in a month of Sundays. The NS bridge will only be patched after repairs. Are you a gambling man? [?]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb

If you win the bet you get the dollar. If I win your out a dime. Still SUCK? [?] Probably a dime won't break you. [swg] The bridge in Covington has not be been painted in a month of Sundays. The NS bridge will only be patched after repairs. Are you a gambling man? [?]

naw, then I'd have to give you my address to send the winnings to, not that important to me.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb

. The bridge in question in KY is not currently painted. [:-,]

Interesting wording there "not currently painted"


obviously the residents of covington agree that the bridge needs repainting, so I can't sucessfully argue that the bridge is currently (properly) painted.

If however, you are trying to say the bridge HAS NEVER BEEN PAINTED, you better take a look at some photo's

http://www.cincinnati-transit.net/co-viaduct2.html

[mackb4]

The bridge may be in the middle of no where,but the bridge is still the responsibility of the CSX.If the cities buses needed painted or had big ugly oil spots or mud all over the side don't you think the people would complain?The CSX has two underpasses that go under their old hump yard going from Raceland to Worthington Ky.They had signed an agreement to maintain them with the county (Greenup) and the two mentioned cities.They tried to back out of it and say they was to the understanding that the cities were to take over the upkeep.Well that shows that big corprate America just doesn't give a hoot to the public in other words "pass the buck".I say the mayor is in the right on this situatuion because continue to let CSX get away with this then it will be something else next.[2c]

[solzrules]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

QUOTE: Originally posted by solzrules

Look at it this way. Let's assume that the bridge is physically sound. The mayor wants the rr to repaint the bridge so it looks nice, right? If the railroad gives in and pays for something that -let's face it it isn't critical - what happens when a thousand other towns demand the same thing? That could be really expensive. And it would be an expense that isn't justified to operate the railroad. Nor would it really be a hazardous enviromental condition.

I think the railroad is being a good citizen by ensuring the bridges are safe. I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary - speculation about the quality of the inspections is really just that - speculation.

But is not your assumption as posed above a "speculation" as well?

I don't see where my "speculation" is any less valid than yours. Am I missing something?

Allowing these bridges to rust away in accomodation to stockholder greed is irresponsible at best, and, depending on what eventual outcome results, could border on criminally negligent at worst....

So the blanket expectation of "hands off" seems the less wise path to pursue.

Better to fight them now while they need the bridge, than wait until it develops serious flaws that prompt CSX to abandon and bail. Leaving the city with a king sized monument to the stupidity of undeserved tolerance .


[;)]

CSX needs to take responsibility for the consequences of its actions,

Oh I don't know if I am speculating. I am saying that if CSX inspects the bridge and finds it to be in good order (other than a coat of paint) I would tend to agree with them as they are the experts on their business and property. I do know this - I would NEVER take a city inspectors word over that of the railroad. I know from experience that those folk like to make up rules as they go along, wether it is a code issue or not.
And being that I am no expert in bridges or bridge repair, you have to trust the professionals. A city bridge inspector has no jurisdiction over a rail bridge to my knowledge.

Certainly the other side of your argument is true. If the bridge does fail and fails because of negligent maintenance on the part of CSX then I am sure that justice will be served through the litany of property damage lawsuits and possible wrongful death lawsuits. Unfortunately, this is a fact of life. If we worried about everything that has the potential to fail we would be a nervous wreck.

[rrandb]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb

. The bridge in question in KY is not currently painted. [:-,]

Interesting wording there "not currently painted"


obviously the residents of covington agree that the bridge needs repainting, so I can't sucessfully argue that the bridge is currently (properly) painted.

If however, you are trying to say the bridge HAS NEVER BEEN PAINTED, you better take a look at some photo's

http://www.cincinnati-transit.net/co-viaduct2.html

It's a huge step to go from a month of Sunday's (a long time) to NEVER. I think it is safe to say that it was in this or worse condition when CSX bought it from the previous owner. And maybe even the owner before them. I suppose when one aquires a railroad they should be forced to upgrade the maintenance defered equipment, structures, rolling stock, engines and(I almost forgot) every thing gets a new coat of paint too. CSX has enough train related issues to worry with since the merger. And now you also want them to make every thing pretty as well. If that were the case there would not be as many mergers and many more bankrupted/embargoed railroads. What the mayor is doing is trying to dictate CSX's maintence priorities. I'll let the RR decide what gets done first.

[Anonymous]

I just hope the taxpayers have a LONG memory on this crudola.

Someday CSX will need something, and, having made their own bed..... and then the Liederkranz will be on the other cracker... [dinner]

[rrandb]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb

If you win the bet you get the dollar. If I win your out a dime. Still SUCK? [?] Probably a dime won't break you. [swg] The bridge in Covington has not be been painted in a month of Sundays. The NS bridge will only be patched after repairs. Are you a gambling man? [?]

naw, then I'd have to give you my address to send the winnings to, not that important to me.

I will not need your address nore do I want it. I will Fed Ex to your local UPS store(they hate that) or Western Union to be picked up by the Antigates or any other alias you prefer. Or under your favorite rock. It's called a blind drop. Your aninimity will be safe. [swg]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb

I will not need your address nore do I want it. I will Fed Ex to your local UPS store(they hate that) or Western Union to be picked up by the Antigates or any other alias you prefer. Or under your favorite rock. It's called a blind drop. Your aninimity will be safe.

The entire bridge is not marked up for repairs, so they very well might not paint the areas not needing it.

Still, I'll bet you that once the current repairs have been completed, the bridge will not look like a neglected pile of rust.

How about that?

[Anonymous]

Quoting:

"If the cities buses needed painted or had big ugly oil spots or mud all over the side don't you think the people would complain?"

True. But CSX doesn't, as John Kneiling once said, "have the IRS for a collection agent".

There isn't a mass transit system out there that make money. If the local transit authority can persuade 50.0000001% of the local voters to pass a sales or income tax measure, they can force every person living, working, or visiting the area to "invest" in their system. Not that I am complaining - that's the way things are supposed to work in this country. And investment in mass transit is going to become very important in years to come.

CSX has to attract capital solely by earning an acceptable rate of return, which doesn't always allow for the expense of cosmetic work on remote bridges. I would think the money would be better spent on another set of crossing gates somehwhere on the system.

Still - I think both the City and CSX could have handled this a lot better -perhaps by offering CSX a tax credit to partially offset the cost?

[rrandb]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb

I will not need your address nore do I want it. I will Fed Ex to your local UPS store(they hate that) or Western Union to be picked up by the Antigates or any other alias you prefer. Or under your favorite rock. It's called a blind drop. Your aninimity will be safe.

The entire bridge is not marked up for repairs, so they very well might not paint the areas not needing it.

Still, I'll bet you that once the current repairs have been completed, the bridge will not look like a neglected pile of rust.

How about that?

The operative term here is "NEED" it. NS's bridge is painted for a specific reason. The reason is not to make it look pretty for the local comunity. It was built from steel that "needs" to be painted. What next ? Your rails are rusty looking and may be structurally defective? And they would look better if you painted them??? ?? [?]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb

I will not need your address nore do I want it. I will Fed Ex to your local UPS store(they hate that) or Western Union to be picked up by the Antigates or any other alias you prefer. Or under your favorite rock. It's called a blind drop. Your aninimity will be safe.

The entire bridge is not marked up for repairs, so they very well might not paint the areas not needing it.

Still, I'll bet you that once the current repairs have been completed, the bridge will not look like a neglected pile of rust.

How about that?

The operative term here is "NEED" it. NS's bridge is painted for a specific reason. The reason is not to make it look pretty for the local comunity. It was built from steel that "needs" to be painted. What next ? Your rails are rusty looking and may be structurally defective? And they would look better if you painted them??? ?? [?]

And you are saying that the covington bridge is made from steel alloyed specially to not require painting? What alloy would that be? Looks like the handrails are rotting away into thin air based upon the pictures.


Admit it, CSX is just relying on (borrowed) time, the problem they are creating is just not one that will have immediate consequences. For all intents and purposes picking their own pocket for the sake of dividends today. And having an adverse affect on the communities unfortunate enough to have them for neighbors.

As Neil Young might sing.....

Side note, rusty rails? that won't be until after NS steals all their traffic. [8D]

[rrandb]

Would you like to venture an estimate to sandblast (no sand or residue in water and lead remediation) then prime and paint said bridge with the ensuing traffic delays. Not cheap. Shurly you are aware that many types of steel required no painting long before Cor-Ten. Not to mention I would be very surprised if the handrails are the same alloy as the structural menbers. When's the last time you saw a rail rust through. [%-)] Please. Some steel is shipped in coil cars with covers and some is not. Why? Some steel is sensitive to even moisture, some to rain, and some rain does not matter. Different alloys. [:O]

[louisnash]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb

. The bridge in question in KY is not currently painted. [:-,]

Interesting wording there "not currently painted"


obviously the residents of covington agree that the bridge needs repainting, so I can't sucessfully argue that the bridge is currently (properly) painted.

If however, you are trying to say the bridge HAS NEVER BEEN PAINTED, you better take a look at some photo's

http://www.cincinnati-transit.net/co-viaduct2.html

The bridge in the link is not the bridge in question. The one that they want painted is actually on the east part of town. Not the best area to be in at all.

The one that is linked to is the one that runs with the Clay Wade Bailey bridge over the Ohio River. The one that Covington is arguing about crosses over the Main Licking River. Give them some time and I'm sure both bridges will be an issue.

They can't even figure out the I-75 Brent Spence Bridge congestion, but they want to worry about the railroad. That whole area going into and leaving Cincinnati is nothing but a nightmare.

The problem I see about it all, is that there are a few bridges in the Covington and Latonia area. It won't be long until I can seem them going after them all. On the southern side of Covington, CSX (L&N) has a bridge that goes over Route 16 and 177. It still has L&N markings on it, so that tells you how long that one has been since it's been painted. I can't believe it hasn't been hit by the mayor yet either. There is much more traffic in that area than the other bridge.

Here is a link if it will work showing the area in question. It is at 15th Street and Maryland Ave.

http://search.travel.yahoo.com/bin/search/map?nomaptip=1&yid=&ylat=&ylong=&yname=&yphone=&yaddress=&ycity=&ystate=&yurl=&clat=39.077160702703&clong=-84.49871954054&zoom=10&sid=476109&pop=0&id=&pan_x=&pan_y=&.done=&.title=&cat=none&cat=lodging&lodging_price=-1&cat=skiresort&dining_price=-1&cat=sightseeing&cat=airport&yp_search=&cat=city&num_result=20

Brian (KY)

[Anonymous]

I have raifanned in Covington maybe 8 to 10 times in the past 5 years and have pics of that bridge but never felt threatened in any way while doing so.
I think the mayor of Covington is taking a page from the Chicago Playbook Of Legalized Extortion(C-POLE) on this one.
Pretty soon they will be charging you for air to breath.

[Cheviot Hill]

Thanks louisnash for clearing that up. You beat me to it. Everyone, also remember that CSX is the only railroad in Covington. Google map it and you will see.

[Anonymous]

MY GOD!! you guys mean that CSX has 2 neglected rust heaps in Covington? No WONDER they are upset. [banghead]